The rules for additional strikes are not entirely clear for some cases and have led to the following questions about how it should be handled:
Can Anarch Jacko play all, his special, Blur, Hell-for-Leather and Quickness immediately after the handling of the initial strikes, before handling any of the additional strikes i.e. setting up 5 additional strikes to be handled before handling any of them?
Are all gained additional strikes (e.g. Blur, Lightning Reflexes where X>1 or the scenario above if allowed) handled simultaneously or one at a time?
Can a minion play/gain more additional strikes while still having pending ones to resolve that were gained in a previous window after strike resolution or do they all have to have been handled first?
If minion A plays Blur against minion B that doesn't play any additional strikes, and then when handling minion A´s first additional strike can minion B play Blur i.e. can additional strikes be played after strike resolution of what is not the initial strikes?
Jacko
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Brujah antitribu
Group: 2
Capacity: 8
Discipline: obt CEL POT PRE
Sabbat: {During the first round of combat,} Jacko gets {1 optional additional strike that does not count against the limit}.
Blur
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Celerity
Additional strike {(limited)}.
Two additional strikes {(limited)}.
Hell-for-Leather
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Animalism/Celerity/Obtenebration
Requires an Anarch. Only one Hell-for-Leather can be played at a given Discipline each combat.
Strike: dodge, with 1 additional strike (limited).
Additional strike that does not count against the limit.
Only usable if this Anarch is ready and the opposing minion is not. The opposing minion's controller burns 2 pool.
Quickness
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Celerity
Additional strike {(limited)}.
{Additional strike that does not count against the limit.} A vampire may only play one Quickness each round.
Lightning Reflexes
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Celerity
Additional strike {(limited)}.
This vampire may burn X blood to gain X additional strikes {(limited)}.
> Rulebook:
>
> Additional Strikes: Some cards and effects allow a minion to make additional strikes during the current round of combat. Additional strikes are announced and performed only after the first pair of strikes is completed. The acting minion decides whether or not to gain additional strikes before the opposing minion, as usual.
>
> Additional strikes are handled by having another choose strike step and resolve strike step in which only the minions with additional strikes may play strike cards. All additional strikes take place at the same range. This is repeated as necessary. A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat. This rule is reminded on those cards by the “(limited)” card text.
>
> inm8 wrote:
> The rules for additional strikes are not entirely clear for some cases and have led to the following questions about how it should be handled:
>
> Can Anarch Jacko play all, his special, Blur, Hell-for-Leather and Quickness immediately after the handling of the initial strikes, before handling any of the additional strikes i.e. setting up 5 additional strikes to be handled before handling any of them?
>
No. You can play one source of additional strike(s) after resolving the initial strikes, resolve the additional strike(s), then play one more other source of additional strike(s) (as long as you don't exceed the limit of course).
> inm8 wrote:
> Are all gained additional strikes (e.g. Blur, Lightning Reflexes where X>1 or the scenario above if allowed) handled simultaneously or one at a time?
>
Additional strikes are declared and resolved one after the other.
> inm8 wrote:
> Can a minion play/gain more additional strikes while still having pending ones to resolve that were gained in a previous window after strike resolution or do they all have to have been handled first?
>
No.
> inm8 wrote:
> If minion A plays Blur against minion B that doesn't play any additional strikes, and then when handling minion A´s first additional strike can minion B play Blur i.e. can additional strikes be played after strike resolution of what is not the initial strikes?
>
No. B must declare additional strikes after the initial strike resolution.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > The rules for additional strikes are not entirely clear for some cases and have led to the following questions about how it should be handled:
> >
> > Can Anarch Jacko play all, his special, Blur, Hell-for-Leather and Quickness immediately after the handling of the initial strikes, before handling any of the additional strikes i.e. setting up 5 additional strikes to be handled before handling any of them?
> >
> No. You can play one source of additional strike(s) after resolving the initial strikes, resolve the additional strike(s), then play one more other source of additional strike(s) (as long as you don't exceed the limit of course).
>
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > If minion A plays Blur against minion B that doesn't play any additional strikes, and then when handling minion A´s first additional strike can minion B play Blur i.e. can additional strikes be played after strike resolution of what is not the initial strikes?
> >
> No. B must declare additional strikes after the initial strike resolution.
>
The latter answer seems to contradict the first one...might be because of the below
If minion B didn´t have any additional strike(s) cards after the resolution of the initial strikes and then when the first additional strike of minion A is being resolved and minion B plays a prevention card, that results in drawing Blur as a replacement for it, minion B wouldn´t be allowed to play his Blur after the resolution of that strike (i.e. a minion is not allowed to play additional strikes after that they skip an opportunity to do so regardless of if it is by choice or lack of the needed cards/ability)?
> inm8 wrote:
> If minion B didn´t have any additional strike(s) cards after the resolution of the initial strikes and then when the first additional strike of minion A is being resolved and minion B plays a prevention card, that results in drawing Blur as a replacement for it, minion B wouldn´t be allowed to play his Blur after the resolution of that strike
>
No, B couldn't.
> inm8 wrote:
> (i.e. a minion is not allowed to play additional strikes after that they skip an opportunity to do so regardless of if it is by choice or lack of the needed cards/ability)?
>
That's right.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
If acting minion A chooses not to play any additional strike and passes impulse to minion B who does play additional strikes, can minion A now choose to play additional strike?
> inm8 wrote:
> If acting minion A chooses not to play any additional strike and passes impulse to minion B who does play additional strikes, can minion A now choose to play additional strike?
>
yes,impulse rule. i think i read this somewhere,but cannot remember there. same as pre range,step,or prevent step. you can chose to not prevent damage,and if B prevent,A get impulse back to prevent too
> inm8 wrote:
> If acting minion A chooses not to play any additional strike and passes impulse to minion B who does play additional strikes, can minion A now choose to play additional strike?
>
Yes.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > If minion B didn´t have any additional strike(s) cards after the resolution of the initial strikes and then when the first additional strike of minion A is being resolved and minion B plays a prevention card, that results in drawing Blur as a replacement for it, minion B wouldn´t be allowed to play his Blur after the resolution of that strike
> >
> No, B couldn't.
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > (i.e. a minion is not allowed to play additional strikes after that they skip an opportunity to do so regardless of if it is by choice or lack of the needed cards/ability)?
> >
> That's right.
>
Could you please explain the rationale for this ruling, what are you basing it on?
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > inm8 wrote:
> > > If minion B didn´t have any additional strike(s) cards after the resolution of the initial strikes and then when the first additional strike of minion A is being resolved and minion B plays a prevention card, that results in drawing Blur as a replacement for it, minion B wouldn´t be allowed to play his Blur after the resolution of that strike
> > >
> > No, B couldn't.
> >
> > > inm8 wrote:
> > > (i.e. a minion is not allowed to play additional strikes after that they skip an opportunity to do so regardless of if it is by choice or lack of the needed cards/ability)?
> > >
> > That's right.
> >
> Could you please explain the rationale for this ruling, what are you basing it on?
>
B declined to play additional strikes after the resolution of the initial strikes.
Rulebook: "Additional strikes are announced and performed only after the first pair of strikes is completed. The acting minion decides whether or not to gain additional strikes before the opposing minion, as usual."
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> B declined to play additional strikes after the resolution of the initial strikes.
>
> Rulebook: "Additional strikes are announced and performed only after the first pair of strikes is completed. The acting minion decides whether or not to gain additional strikes before the opposing minion, as usual."
>
Am I understanding you correctly that the word "only" in the rules sentence:
>
> Additional strikes are announced and performed only after the first pair of strikes is completed.
>
is what makes it that if a minion declines to play additional strikes after the initial strike resolution no more additional strikes can be announced and performed later after a subsequent strike resolution?
If the above is the reason, that would seem contradictory with that one can announce and perform additional strikes after later strike resolutions of the round beyond the initial one because one didn´t decline to play additional strikes after the initial strike resolution (i.e. that would be announcing and performing additional strikes not only after the initial strike resolution).
Clearly, if one can´t use more than one source at a time and one can´t announce and perform more additional strikes after later strike resolutions of the round beyond the initial one it would make cards like Quickness useless.
The way the rules text is written it comes across as if all additional strikes should be played at one point in time (i.e. after the initial strike resolution) but the rules also say:
>
> A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat.
>
which for some reason, that isn´t obvious to me, is being used as both the limit of how many additional strikes cards or effects one can use in a round and for the limit of the number of additional strikes providing effects that can be in effect/active at any given moment....this in turn makes the card text´s "..does not count against the limit..." a vague statement as to which of the two limits it refers to...why isn´t it both?
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > B declined to play additional strikes after the resolution of the initial strikes.
> >
> > Rulebook: "Additional strikes are announced and performed only after the first pair of strikes is completed. The acting minion decides whether or not to gain additional strikes before the opposing minion, as usual."
> >
> Am I understanding you correctly that the word "only" in the rules sentence:
> >
> > Additional strikes are announced and performed only after the first pair of strikes is completed.
> >
> is what makes it that if a minion declines to play additional strikes after the initial strike resolution no more additional strikes can be announced and performed later after a subsequent strike resolution?
>
Indeed.
> inm8 wrote:
> If the above is the reason, that would seem contradictory with that one can announce and perform additional strikes after later strike resolutions of the round beyond the initial one because one didn´t decline to play additional strikes after the initial strike resolution (i.e. that would be announcing and performing additional strikes not only after the initial strike resolution).
>
Additional strikes sources can be played only one at a time because you have to announce and resolve additional strikes before proceeding to another source of additional strikes.
This is not described in the rulebook and will be added.
> inm8 wrote:
> Clearly, if one can´t use more than one source at a time and one can´t announce and perform more additional strikes after later strike resolutions of the round beyond the initial one it would make cards like Quickness useless.
>
Exactly.
> inm8 wrote:
> The way the rules text is written it comes across as if all additional strikes should be played at one point in time (i.e. after the initial strike resolution) but the rules also say:
> >
> > A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat.
> >
> which for some reason, that isn´t obvious to me, is being used as both the limit of how many additional strikes cards or effects one can use in a round and for the limit of the number of additional strikes providing effects that can be in effect/active at any given moment...
>
This is not the case, the latter comes from a ruling not reflected by the rulebook (that is you have to play sources one after the other, after resolving them completely).
> inm8 wrote:
> .this in turn makes the card text´s "..does not count against the limit..." a vague statement as to which of the two limits it refers to...why isn´t it both?
>
The limit is "A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat. This rule is reminded on those cards by the “(limited)” card text."
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > If the above is the reason, that would seem contradictory with that one can announce and perform additional strikes after later strike resolutions of the round beyond the initial one because one didn´t decline to play additional strikes after the initial strike resolution (i.e. that would be announcing and performing additional strikes not only after the initial strike resolution).
> >
> Additional strikes sources can be played only one at a time because you have to announce and resolve additional strikes before proceeding to another source of additional strikes.
> This is not described in the rulebook and will be added.
>
Please also remove the contradiction that the word "only" causes in the current phrasing.
> Rulebook:
>
> Additional Strikes: Some cards and effects allow a minion to make additional strikes during the current round of combat. Additional strikes are announced and performed only after the first pair of strikes is completed. The acting minion decides whether or not to gain additional strikes before the opposing minion, as usual.
>
If a vampire is prevented from performing an initial strike (e.g. Lapse) is that vampire allowed to gain additional strikes in that same round?
This Hidden Lurker ruling groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/-NDAClfltxk/m/POeoheutXf0J insinuates that it is allowed.
Yes, from the rulebook:
Some cards may allow a minion to get additional strikes during a round of combat, these are resolved after the normal pair of strikes. If only one minion has additional strikes these are resolved on their own after the normal pair of strikes.
There's no reference regarding whether the minion was able to use his initial strike or not.
Still want Ankha to answer to make it official.
I agree that the rulebook doesn't mention any such dependency/requirement but nor does it mention the need for an un-interrupted chain of additional strikes to be able to gain additional ones which has been ruled here to be the case, this is why it makes sense to get an official answer to close the circle.
> inm8 wrote:
> Still want Ankha to answer to make it official.
>
> I agree that the rulebook doesn't mention any such dependency/requirement but nor does it mention the need for an un-interrupted chain of additional strikes to be able to gain additional ones which has been ruled here to be the case, this is why it makes sense to get an official answer to close the circle.
>
Why we need rules director to say that cards give effects as they are worded when previous rulings that are still valid exist?
Name: Lapse [BL:C2, LoB:C] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 2 blood Discipline: Temporis/Potence Only usable before range is determined. [pot] This vampire gets +2 strength this round. [tem] The opposing minion cannot maneuver this round. [TEM] The opposing minion cannot strike during the initial strike phase this round (other strike resolution effects are not affected). Artist: Leif Jones
Nothing in superior Lapse is preventing minions from using any additional strikes. If you're looking for that effect, you need wording on it to be like Rigor Mortis;
Name: Rigor Mortis [BL:C2, LoB:C] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Thanatosis/Presence Only usable before range is determined. A minion can play only one Rigor Mortis each round. [pre] The opposing minion cannot use any additional strikes this round. [thn] As [pre] above, with an optional press. [THN] As [thn] above, and once each round this combat, you may cancel a maneuver used by the opposing minion. Artist: Brian LeBlanc
which also gives the following ruling preventing gaining additional strikes via other cards "as byproduct" when using them is forbidden. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/gI44SEC82Yk/m/Kgipu7IXwWkJ
>
> > If I play Rogor Mortis, does that prevent opponent from dodging with
> > Acrobatics?
>
> Yes, since the dodge comes with a mandatory prohibited additional strike.
>
Why this difference? Hidden lurker text (as it's been ruled gaining additionals with it is okay) vs Rigor Mortis text (where gaining additionals even as byproduct is not okay.)
Name: Hidden Lurker [Jyhad:C, VTES:C, SW:C, CE:U, KMW:PAn4] Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Obfuscate Only usable by a ready unlocked vampire other than the acting minion. Only usable after a combat between the acting minion you control and a blocking minion. [obf] Lock this vampire. This vampire enters combat with the blocking minion. The first round of this new combat, the blocking minion cannot strike. [OBF] As above, with an optional press. Artist: Steve Casper
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/-NDAClfltxk/m/POeoheutXf0J
> > While you're the victim of Hidden Lurker can you or can you not burn Blur,
> > etc. to no effect?
> >
> > I say you can't. Am I right?
>
> Hidden Lurker prevents teh victim from striking.
> The victim is still free to do whatever else he wants - including
> maneuvering, pressing, gaining additional strikes, playing pre-range
> cards, etc.
>
> So, yes, you can play Blur.
>
"Cannot strike" and "cannot use any additional strikes" are two different things.
"Cannot strike" and "cannot strike during the initial strike phase" is a situation where latter is just more limited version of the former, in it's effect that is.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
I understand the Hidden Lurker ruling as meaning that you can GAIN additional strikes, for examle by playing blur, but you cannot use the additional strikes.
Is that correctly understood?
Lackeyname: Kris
> Khaan wrote:
> I understand the Hidden Lurker ruling as meaning that you can GAIN additional strikes, for examle by playing blur, but you cannot use the additional strikes.
>
> Is that correctly understood?
>
Correct.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director