a)
Car bomb
"the action ends (unsecesfully)" does the paranthesis state that the action resolved unsucesfully, despite not reaching resolution, therefore being subjected to NRA?
b)
secret passage
"the action fails" does the word "fail" imply that the action resolced unsucesfull, dsepite noit reaching resolution, therefore being subjected to NRA?
c)
kiss of ra
"the action ends" in the case tthat a) means that the action is subjecrted by NRA, is the paranthesis only a remainder, meaning Kiss of ra also ends (unsucesfully), or would this card need a rewording, to be in line with earlier rulings?
d)
Tangle Atropos Hand
"Cancel the action" Action did not reach resolution, and did not end. Does NRA apply?
e)
Champion
"The action fails and the acting monster enters combat with this imbued instead." In case that in b) NRA does not apply, does it apply here,sicne there is a combat, or is this combat unrelated to the action resolution?
In my opinion, it does not matter if the action "ends", "fails" or "is cancelled" when it comes down to the NRA question. NRA has to do with wether or not you reached action resolution (block resolution, or successful action resolution).
It seems we still need an RD input on a few of those though, I know I did not manage to convince some seasoned players on this ☺︎
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> a)
>
> Car bomb
>
> "the action ends (unsecesfully)" does the paranthesis state that the action resolved unsucesfully, despite not reaching resolution, therefore being subjected to NRA?
>
Did not reach resolution (action ends before block): no NRA
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> b)
>
> secret passage
>
> "the action fails" does the word "fail" imply that the action resolced unsucesfull, dsepite noit reaching resolution, therefore being subjected to NRA?
>
Did not reach resolution (action ends before block): no NRA
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> c)
>
> kiss of ra
>
> "the action ends" in the case tthat a) means that the action is subjecrted by NRA, is the paranthesis only a remainder, meaning Kiss of ra also ends (unsucesfully), or would this card need a rewording, to be in line with earlier rulings?
>
Did not reach resolution (action ends before block): no NRA
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> d)
>
> Tangle Atropos Hand
>
> "Cancel the action" Action did not reach resolution, and did not end. Does NRA apply?
>
Did not reach resolution (action ends before block): no NRA
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> e)
>
> Champion
>
> "The action fails and the acting monster enters combat with this imbued instead." In case that in b) NRA does not apply, does it apply here,sicne there is a combat, or is this combat unrelated to the action resolution?
>
Did not reach resolution (action ends before block): no NRA
Here are some examples already explained www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/79001-the-question-of-the-month-action-fizzles
Ended actions and canceled actions do not reach resolution and are therefore not subjected to NRA edit: this is a bit oversimplified, see below for more details.
For failed actions see www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/78475-action-fails-what-happens-exactly#99087
it resolves without effect, therefore NRA applies.
Prince of Bonn, Germany
Oh wow, I stand corrected, I was so wrong. Now I have no idea what happens to actions that just end or end unsuccessfully. Is that not failing? But NRA does not apply to Kiss of Ra, right? I'm confused.
Failing and ending actions are not the same. I just realised, that my previous post does not seem to be entirely accurate.
Failing actions (for example through Hide the Heart or Secret Passage) resolve without effect. That is something different than ending actions.
Ending actions just end. If they were already blocked and the effect to end the action is played then (like Change of Target), NRA applies. That's why a minion playing Change of Target cannot use a cardless bleed after playing it on for example an inferior Govern. If they were not blocked at that point, like with Kiss of Ra (requires a block attempt and cancels that attempt), NRA does not apply, since the action ends before resolution.
For ending actions when a block is succesfull see: groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/qKrJPLXBFFw/m/hE5z511E_PgJ
For the other two cases see the links I posted earlier.
Prince of Bonn, Germany
> lip wrote:
> Oh wow, I stand corrected, I was so wrong. Now I have no idea what happens to actions that just end or end unsuccessfully. Is that not failing? But NRA does not apply to Kiss of Ra, right? I'm confused.
>
yes because :
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Sydnelson wrote:
> >
> > > Ankha wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sydnelson wrote:
> > > > Example 4 - (card says the action ended, but no says what its resolution)
> > > > Minion A plays Kiss of Ra against another vampire. What happen with the resolution of the action?
> > > >
> > > The action was not blocked ("attempts to block"), so it did not reach resolution. It ends, so the action is over. The acting minion cannot play Freak Drive since there is no more ongoing action.
> > >
> > >
> > Thanks for answers Ankha. In the above case, if the minion manages to unlock (with Mylan or Abdelsobek for example) he can perform the same action again?
> >
> > Example:
> >
> > Minion A bleed with Legal Manipulations and play Kiss of Ra in response of block. Mylan unlock Minion A.
> >
> > Can Minion A play Legal Manipulations again?
> >
> Yes, since the first action did not reach resolution.
>
As a rule of thumb, cards that bring an action to a "bad" end use:
- "fail" before resolution
- "end" after resolution, when blocked
There are a few exceptions (Kiss of Ra...) that will be updated on reprint.
An action that fails is considered to have resolved unsuccessfully, as if it had been blocked, except there is no blocker.
An action that ends well... ends. If it has already been blocked by cardtext (which should be 99% of the cases, and 100% of the cases in the future), it is unsuccessful.
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> a)
>
> Car bomb
>
> "the action ends (unsecesfully)" does the paranthesis state that the action resolved unsucesfully, despite not reaching resolution, therefore being subjected to NRA?
>
This is the old templating. The card is played before resolution ("Only usable before any block attempts are made.") and makes the action "ends (unsuccessfully)".
This is equivalent to "the action fails".
Since the action fails, it has reached resolution and counts against the NRA.
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> b)
>
> secret passage
>
> "the action fails" does the word "fail" imply that the action resolced unsucesfull, dsepite noit reaching resolution, therefore being subjected to NRA?
>
See definition above of "fail" => it has reached resolution and counts against the NRA.
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> c)
>
> kiss of ra
>
> "the action ends" in the case tthat a) means that the action is subjecrted by NRA, is the paranthesis only a remainder, meaning Kiss of ra also ends (unsucesfully), or would this card need a rewording, to be in line with earlier rulings?
>
The action has not been blocked, and is ended, which would be equivalent to "canceled" (see d) below). So it has not reached resolution. It does not count against the NRA (if you manage to unlock the minion).
Note that this is probably a bad migration since the action that "blocked" by the Kiss of Ra.
On future reprint, the action will "fail".
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> d)
>
> Tangle Atropos Hand
>
> "Cancel the action" Action did not reach resolution, and did not end. Does NRA apply?
>
"Cancel" is different from "fail(ure)". The action has not reached resolution. It does not count against the NRA.
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> e)
>
> Champion
>
> "The action fails and the acting monster enters combat with this imbued instead." In case that in b) NRA does not apply, does it apply here,sicne there is a combat, or is this combat unrelated to the action resolution?
>
Whether there is a combat is unrelated. The important part is that "the action fails", meaning it has reached resolution, and counts against the NRA.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> As a rule of thumb, cards that bring an action to a "bad" end use:
> - "fail" before resolution
> - "end" after resolution, when blocked
>
> There are a few exceptions (Kiss of Ra...) that will be updated on reprint.
>
> An action that fails is considered to have resolved unsuccessfully, as if it had been blocked, except there is no blocker.
> An action that ends well... ends. If it has already been blocked by cardtext (which should be 99% of the cases, and 100% of the cases in the future), it is unsuccessful.
>
> > Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> > a)
> >
> > Car bomb
> >
> > "the action ends (unsecesfully)" does the paranthesis state that the action resolved unsucesfully, despite not reaching resolution, therefore being subjected to NRA?
> >
> This is the old templating. The card is played before resolution ("Only usable before any block attempts are made.") and makes the action "ends (unsuccessfully)".
> This is equivalent to "the action fails".
> Since the action fails, it has reached resolution and counts against the NRA.
>
> > Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> > b)
> >
> > secret passage
> >
> > "the action fails" does the word "fail" imply that the action resolced unsucesfull, dsepite noit reaching resolution, therefore being subjected to NRA?
> >
> See definition above of "fail" => it has reached resolution and counts against the NRA.
>
> > Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> > c)
> >
> > kiss of ra
> >
> > "the action ends" in the case tthat a) means that the action is subjecrted by NRA, is the paranthesis only a remainder, meaning Kiss of ra also ends (unsucesfully), or would this card need a rewording, to be in line with earlier rulings?
> >
> The action has not been blocked, and is ended, which would be equivalent to "canceled" (see d) below). So it has not reached resolution. It does not count against the NRA (if you manage to unlock the minion).
> Note that this is probably a bad migration since the action that "blocked" by the Kiss of Ra.
> On future reprint, the action will "fail".
>
> > Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> > d)
> >
> > Tangle Atropos Hand
> >
> > "Cancel the action" Action did not reach resolution, and did not end. Does NRA apply?
> >
> "Cancel" is different from "fail(ure)". The action has not reached resolution. It does not count against the NRA.
>
> > Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> > e)
> >
> > Champion
> >
> > "The action fails and the acting monster enters combat with this imbued instead." In case that in b) NRA does not apply, does it apply here,sicne there is a combat, or is this combat unrelated to the action resolution?
> >
> Whether there is a combat is unrelated. The important part is that "the action fails", meaning it has reached resolution, and counts against the NRA.
>
it is much much much much simpler if the NRA rule is explained in the rulebook in terms of whether or not the action has resolved successfully (or unsuccessfully) NRA activates, or if it has been cancelled, where NRA does not activate.
I've beaten this drum pretty hard in the past and the fact that you've explained it here in terms of resolution for clarity tells me that clarity should probably be in the rulebook.
> self wrote:
> it is much much much much simpler if the NRA rule is explained in the rulebook in terms of whether or not the action has resolved successfully (or unsuccessfully) NRA activates, or if it has been cancelled, where NRA does not activate.
>
> I've beaten this drum pretty hard in the past and the fact that you've explained it here in terms of resolution for clarity tells me that clarity should probably be in the rulebook.
>
Agree completely.
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> > c)
> >
> > kiss of ra
> >
> > "the action ends" in the case tthat a) means that the action is subjecrted by NRA, is the paranthesis only a remainder, meaning Kiss of ra also ends (unsucesfully), or would this card need a rewording, to be in line with earlier rulings?
> >
> The action has not been blocked, and is ended, which would be equivalent to "canceled" (see d) below). So it has not reached resolution. It does not count against the NRA (if you manage to unlock the minion).
> Note that this is probably a bad migration since the action that "blocked" by the Kiss of Ra.
> On future reprint, the action will "fail".
>
Am I understanding it correctly that you are saying that a future reprint will be making the action modified by Kiss of Ra count against the NRA as the action will "fail"?
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> > a)
> >
> > Car bomb
> >
> > "the action ends (unsecesfully)" does the paranthesis state that the action resolved unsucesfully, despite not reaching resolution, therefore being subjected to NRA?
> >
> This is the old templating. The card is played before resolution ("Only usable before any block attempts are made.") and makes the action "ends (unsuccessfully)".
> This is equivalent to "the action fails".
> Since the action fails, it has reached resolution and counts against the NRA.
>
Ankha can you please confirm if Zephyr can be played to unlock after Car Bomb "ends (unsuccessfully)" aka "fails" the action (i.e. can modifiers/ further reactions be played after an action "ends (unsuccessfully)/fails")???
Please assume that Car Bomb says:
Requires a ready anarch.
Only usable before any block attempts are made. Lock this reacting minion. If the acting minion has a vehicle, the action {fails}, the vehicle is burned, and the acting minion takes 2 damage (not preventable). Otherwise, the action gets -1 stealth.
This is an errata to make the cards consistent (before the action is blocked => fails, once the action is blocked => ends).
So the action is subject to NRA and you can play Zephyr.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Just to be clear (sorry, I know we've been over and over the topic, but I want to make sure all the rulings I listed are good now):
Can the opponent play a Reaction (eg. Cats' Guidance) after you played Change of Target?
> lip wrote:
> Just to be clear (sorry, I know we've been over and over the topic, but I want to make sure all the rulings I listed are good now):
>
> Can the opponent play a Reaction (eg. Cats' Guidance) after you played Change of Target?
>
No, Change of Target ends the action. No action modifier or reaction cards can be played after.
See also groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/CaderX6x79w/m/OfLzLcEYK4YJ
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/MIRAQ05Ag7E/m/ywRuvwOC46wJ
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Please assume that Car Bomb says:
>
> Requires a ready anarch.
> Only usable before any block attempts are made. Lock this reacting minion. If the acting minion has a vehicle, the action {fails}, the vehicle is burned, and the acting minion takes 2 damage (not preventable). Otherwise, the action gets -1 stealth.
>
> This is an errata to make the cards consistent (before the action is blocked => fails, once the action is blocked => ends).
> So the action is subject to NRA and you can play Zephyr.
>
Should other similar cards be considered errated too? Unseen Hibernation, Scobax, Mistaken Identity (I think that's all...)
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > lip wrote:
> > Just to be clear (sorry, I know we've been over and over the topic, but I want to make sure all the rulings I listed are good now):
> >
> > Can the opponent play a Reaction (eg. Cats' Guidance) after you played Change of Target?
> >
> No, Change of Target ends the action. No action modifier or reaction cards can be played after.
> See also groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/CaderX6x79w/m/OfLzLcEYK4YJ
> groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/MIRAQ05Ag7E/m/ywRuvwOC46wJ
>
I´m in doubt here...
The above linked rulings seem to be irrelevant to me as they are from a time before the current text of Change of Target which has changed over time
"...when minion is blocked. ...cancel the current action..." -> "...when this acting minion is blocked (play before combat, if any). ...end the current action (it is not successful)." --> "...usable if this minion is blocked, before block resolution. ...the action ends (unsuccessfully)."
Earlier in this thread (see below quote), you say that "the action ends (unsuccessfully)" was the old template for "fails".
Change of Target is played before resolution ("Only usable if this minion is blocked, before block resolution.") and makes the action "ends (unsuccessfully)".
This should be equivalent to "the action fails". (same as below??)
Since the action should be considered as failed, it has reached resolution and counts against the NRA. Therefore modifiers and reactions should be allowed to be played after it?
Ruling making Change of Target relevant to NRA. [LSJ 20070709]
> LSJ wrote:
> So if you resolve the successful action or enter block-combat (or play some
> other effect that is played when the action succeeds or when the action is
> blocked), then the action has reached resolution.
>
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> > a)
> >
> > Car bomb
> >
> > "the action ends (unsecesfully)" does the paranthesis state that the action resolved unsucesfully, despite not reaching resolution, therefore being subjected to NRA?
> >
> This is the old templating. The card is played before resolution ("Only usable before any block attempts are made.") and makes the action "ends (unsuccessfully)".
> This is equivalent to "the action fails".
> Since the action fails, it has reached resolution and counts against the NRA.
>
Based on the above vampire B in the below scenario should be allowed to play Cat´s Guidance.
A does a basic bleed. A passes the impulse to B.
B is locked and wakes with WwEF. Passes impulse back to A
A doesn't do anything. A passes the impulse to B
B attempts to block with the woken vampire. Passes impulse back to A
A doesn't do anything (doesn't add stealth). A passes the impulse to B.
B doesn't do anything. Passes impulse back to A.
As impulse is passed around without any cards/effects being played the bleed action is blocked.
A plays Change of Target, unlocks and the action ends (unsuccessfully). A passes the impulse to B.
B is locked and plays inferior Cat´s Guidance to unlock (should be allowed???)
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > lip wrote:
> > > Just to be clear (sorry, I know we've been over and over the topic, but I want to make sure all the rulings I listed are good now):
> > >
> > > Can the opponent play a Reaction (eg. Cats' Guidance) after you played Change of Target?
> > >
> > No, Change of Target ends the action. No action modifier or reaction cards can be played after.
> > See also groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/CaderX6x79w/m/OfLzLcEYK4YJ
> > groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/MIRAQ05Ag7E/m/ywRuvwOC46wJ
> >
> I´m in doubt here...
>
> The above linked rulings seem to be irrelevant to me as they are from a time before the current text of Change of Target which has changed over time
>
> "...when minion is blocked. ...cancel the current action..." -> "...when this acting minion is blocked (play before combat, if any). ...end the current action (it is not successful)." --> "...usable if this minion is blocked, before block resolution. ...the action ends (unsuccessfully)."
>
> Earlier in this thread (see below quote), you say that "the action ends (unsuccessfully)" was the old template for "fails".
>
> Change of Target is played before resolution ("Only usable if this minion is blocked, before block resolution.") and makes the action "ends (unsuccessfully)".
> This should be equivalent to "the action fails". (same as below??)
> Since the action should be considered as failed, it has reached resolution and counts against the NRA. Therefore modifiers and reactions should be allowed to be played after it?
>
It's never a good idea to reopen a question if the question is different.
The answers provided above were relative to the NRA, not the possibility to play action modifiers or cards. Those are two different subjects.
When I wrote "This is equivalent to "the action fails".", it was for the matter of the NRA, not generally speaking.
I gave the exact definition of "the action fails" and "the action ends" (and their difference) in the same post.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> lip wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > Please assume that Car Bomb says:
> >
> > Requires a ready anarch.
> > Only usable before any block attempts are made. Lock this reacting minion. If the acting minion has a vehicle, the action {fails}, the vehicle is burned, and the acting minion takes 2 damage (not preventable). Otherwise, the action gets -1 stealth.
> >
> > This is an errata to make the cards consistent (before the action is blocked => fails, once the action is blocked => ends).
> > So the action is subject to NRA and you can play Zephyr.
> >
> Should other similar cards be considered errated too? Unseen Hibernation, Scobax, Mistaken Identity (I think that's all...)
>
Sure, I'll publish an updated version of the official cardtexts.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > lip wrote:
> > Should other similar cards be considered errated too? Unseen Hibernation, Scobax, Mistaken Identity (I think that's all...)
> >
> Sure, I'll publish an updated version of the official cardtexts.
>
Hmmm, do I misremember but back in the day (before BCP, or during the very early BCP era, IIRC) there was a policy of not changing card texts until the card being changed was going to be printed?
Or perhaps the policy has changed?
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> Hmmm, do I misremember but back in the day (before BCP, or during the very early BCP era, IIRC) there was a policy of not changing card texts until the card being changed was going to be printed?
>
> Or perhaps the policy has changed?
>
While BCP are clearly trying to not change texts without reprints where possible, there have been many changes to the card texts without reprints ever since VtES returned to print.
Recent examples off the top of my head:
* The inherited sect change (Creation Rites, Third Tradition: Progeny are not currently in print, but text has changed)
* Renaming THA to Blood Sorcery (several vampires updated).
How is this even an issue? Having the card reprinted doesn't suddenly make the old texts vanish, so people still need to be aware of what the current card text is, whether the card has been reprinted or not.
--
National Coordinator
South Africa
I was initially in the camp of not having errata done until reprint but you highlight very valid points so I have changed over to the other side
I think that the only important thing is that as errata is issued it should be reflected with the official texts being updated if not at the same time as soon as possible after the change....this so errata, rulings, and texts are all aligned
> drnlmza wrote:
> How is this even an issue?
>
No did I say it WAS an issue?
Just brought the matter up.
But indeed it sure would be great to have a printed version with the new test available. Even if,obviously, the old cards won't magically change their texts.
With Print on Demand getting the updated cards out should be pretty easy and straightforward to achieve?
Finnish Politics!