Elen Camjian second action.

If after successful bleed Elen unlocked with locked minion on the table, can she performs any other actions as she cannot bleed already?

No she can’t as long as the other action isn’t a hunt that must be performed and that because of card text (limits it to only mandatory hunts overruling the rule of getting “stuck” when having more than one mandatory action), the rulebook is clear about how to deal with mandatory actions. > > Rulebook says: > > A minion required to take a mandatory action cannot perform any other action. > > If a single minion has two or more different mandatory actions, then they are “stuck” and cannot perform any action (this does not prevent your other minions from performing actions, however). >

The parallel with Cry Wolf would be that she is free to do something else once she has done her special bleed action: groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/f7pLAO9n--U/m/u6Q1HaHK2rUJ I'm not really happy with that ruling, but it stands right now. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > The parallel with Cry Wolf would be that she is free to do something else once she has done her special bleed action: > > groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/f7pLAO9n--U/m/u6Q1HaHK2rUJ > > I'm not really happy with that ruling, but it stands right now. > That ruling contradicts the rules which is not good. If it is standing the rulebook should be updated to reflect that mandatory actions only needs to be done ones per turn prior to non mandatory ones. if a vampire has performed a mandatory hunt and later (in the same turn) manages to unlock and again has no blood it is free to bleed? What if the hunt wasn’t mandatory…is it still the same handling?

> Ankha wrote: > The parallel with Cry Wolf would be that she is free to do something else once she has done her special bleed action: > Does this ruling apply regardless if the first bleed was 'free bleed' with 0 locked minions or 'special bleed action'?

We came up with a few scenarios on Discord to help further the reflexion here: Scenario 1. - Vampire A acts. He's locked. - Elen bleeds with her special, she's blocked by a vampire but that vampires plays Obedience or Mental Maze: Elen unlocks. Question: is Elen stuck? Or can she do something else? The Cry Wolf ruling tells us she can do something else Scenario 2. - No vampire locked, Elen bleeds with Flurry of Action. She unlocks because it's successful - Vampire A acts and locks. Question: is Elen stuck? Or can she do something else? I think the Cry Wolf ruling does not apply there and she's stuck. She did not bleed with her special ability yet. Passing note that the rulebook does not tell you what happens when you have a mandatory action you cannot take. Only what happens when you have two mandatories. Elen Kamjian Obedience Mental Maze Flurry of Action

> Legion wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > The parallel with Cry Wolf would be that she is free to do something else once she has done her special bleed action: > > > Does this ruling apply regardless if the first bleed was 'free bleed' with 0 locked minions or 'special bleed action'? > It applies only if she has performed her special bleed action. > lip wrote: > We came up with a few scenarios on Discord to help further the reflexion here: > > Scenario 1. > - Vampire A acts. He's locked. > - Elen bleeds with her special, she's blocked by a vampire but that vampires plays Obedience or Mental Maze: Elen unlocks. > > Question: is Elen stuck? Or can she do something else? > Based on Cry Wolf's ruling, she can do something else. > lip wrote: > Scenario 2. > - No vampire locked, Elen bleeds with Flurry of Action. She unlocks because it's successful > - Vampire A acts and locks. > > Question: is Elen stuck? Or can she do something else? > She is stuck. She must bleed with her special action, but cannot since a vampire cannot bleed more than once per turn (whatever the bleed action is). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Is a vampire that must hunt and does so and then uses a Freak Drive to unlock (ending up again without blood) able to perform another action other then a hunt i.e. a bleed ??? The rules say that as soon as the situation of a vampire not having any blood is ready and unlocked is true there is a mandatory action that needs to be performed before any other non mandatory actions...there is not anything that would indicate that it only needs to be done once per turn per minion. > > Rulebook says: > Note that hunting is a mandatory action for a ready unlocked vampire with no blood. During your minion phase, none of your minions can perform any non-mandatory actions if any of your ready unlocked vampires have hunt actions yet to perform. > Other questions i have around the word "must" on cards, as eluded to by lip... getting stuck or just not able to perform particular actions are reasonable conclusions but what about effects that can´t be performed that "must" be : Jaggedy Andy Jaggedy Andy goes to torpor, what happens if one can´t discard the two cards (its very unlikely i know) that must be discarded? Mind of a Killer Mind of a Killer is played on a minion, what if the controller of the targeted minion only has the one minion and gets to its discard phase without have entered combat and thereby have no valid target for the damage that must be assigned? Phillipe Rigaud If there is an older vampires in torpor does Phillipe Rigaud must attempt to diablerize him or her again if he manages to unlock (assuming he was unsuccessful on the first attempt)? I´m thinking Phillipe Rigaud doesn´t need to try again because of the text "he must attempt a diablerie action" which he would have done ones already. Lunatic Eruption Lunatic Eruption has been ruled [ANK 20200227] aligned with the Cry Wolf ruling [LSJ 20090226] , could you please share the rationale for the rulings to better understand why it was ruled that way? Must say that this is putting mandatory actions in another light then i have always thought it was...mandatory doesn't actually mean mandatory but that they must be performed before any other non mandatory actions once per turn and that isn't reflected in the rules. If the text of Elen Camjian, Cry Wolf etc. and the rulebook would say "once per turn....must..." it would be better aligned with the current ruling... > Elen Camjian change ex: > Anarch: If you control a locked minion, once per turn Elen must bleed with +1 bleed as a action unless she must hunt. > > Cry Wolf change ex: > Unique werewolf with 3 life. 2 strength, 0 bleed. Requires a ready anarch. > If the action to recruit this ally is blocked, the acting anarch goes to torpor. Once per turn this werewolf must enter combat with any minion controlled by another Methuselah as a action. He gets one optional press each combat. This werewolf does not unlock as normal during your unlock phase. If he is locked during your unlock phase, burn him. > > Rulebook change ex: > Some actions are mandatory. Any of those actions must once per turn be performed before any nonmandatory actions. If you have two or more minions with mandatory actions, they may be done in the order you choose. A minion required to take a mandatory action cannot perform any other action. For example, once per turn a ready vampire with no blood must hunt as a mandatory action. > > Rulebook change ex: > Who can hunt: Any ready vampire. Note that once per turn hunting is a mandatory action for a ready unlocked vampire with no blood. During your minion phase, none of your minions can perform any non-mandatory actions if any of your ready unlocked vampires have hunt actions yet to perform. If you have two or more vampires with mandatory hunt actions, they may be done in the order you choose. >

> inm8 wrote: > Is a vampire that must hunt and does so and then uses a Freak Drive to unlock (ending up again without blood) able to perform another action other then a hunt i.e. a bleed ??? > No, the vampire must hunt. > inm8 wrote: > Other questions i have around the word "must" on cards, as eluded to by lip... getting stuck or just not able to perform particular actions are reasonable conclusions but what about effects that can´t be performed that "must" be : > > Jaggedy Andy goes to torpor, what happens if one can´t discard the two cards (its very unlikely i know) that must be discarded? > Andy's controller discards as many cards as possible. > inm8 wrote: > Mind of a Killer is played on a minion, what if the controller of the targeted minion only has the one minion and gets to its discard phase without have entered combat and thereby have no valid target for the damage that must be assigned? > The card is burned, and no damage is inflicted since there is no eligible target. > inm8 wrote: > If there is an older vampires in torpor does Phillipe Rigaud must attempt to diablerize him or her again if he manages to unlock (assuming he was unsuccessful on the first attempt)? > Yes. > inm8 wrote: > I´m thinking Phillipe Rigaud doesn´t need to try again because of the text "he must attempt a diablerie action" which he would have done ones already. > Diablerie actions are not restricted by the NRA. > inm8 wrote: > Lunatic Eruption has been ruled [ANK 20200227] aligned with the Cry Wolf ruling [LSJ 20090226] , could you please share the rationale for the rulings to better understand why it was ruled that way? > Because the action cannot be repeated by the same minion. The Cry Wolf ruling implies that in that case, performing the mandatory action (provided by the card) once is enough. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > Is a vampire that must hunt and does so and then uses a Freak Drive to unlock (ending up again without blood) able to perform another action other then a hunt i.e. a bleed ??? > > > No, the vampire must hunt. > > > inm8 wrote: > > Other questions i have around the word "must" on cards, as eluded to by lip... getting stuck or just not able to perform particular actions are reasonable conclusions but what about effects that can´t be performed that "must" be : > > > > Jaggedy Andy goes to torpor, what happens if one can´t discard the two cards (its very unlikely i know) that must be discarded? > > > Andy's controller discards as many cards as possible. > > > inm8 wrote: > > Mind of a Killer is played on a minion, what if the controller of the targeted minion only has the one minion and gets to its discard phase without have entered combat and thereby have no valid target for the damage that must be assigned? > > > The card is burned, and no damage is inflicted since there is no eligible target. > > > inm8 wrote: > > Lunatic Eruption has been ruled [ANK 20200227] aligned with the Cry Wolf ruling [LSJ 20090226] , could you please share the rationale for the rulings to better understand why it was ruled that way? > > > Because the action cannot be repeated by the same minion. The Cry Wolf ruling implies that in that case, performing the mandatory action (provided by the card) once is enough. > Now it is clear and would be possible to be clarified with a few additions to the rules like the below....though it doesn´t make the text on the cards more intuitive when they say "must do x" but then again it wouldn´t be the only nor the first thing one needs to know the rules for to get right (i.e. bleed can only be done once per turn). > Rulebook change: > Some actions are mandatory. Any of those actions must be performed before any nonmandatory actions. Nonrepeatable actions stop being mandatory for the turn when performed once. If you have two or more minions with mandatory actions, they may be done in the order you choose. A minion required to take a mandatory action cannot perform any other action. For example, a ready vampire with no blood must hunt as a mandatory action. > > If a single minion has two or more different mandatory actions, or cannot perform a mandatory action because of it being nonrepeatable, then they are “stuck” and cannot perform any action (this does not prevent your other minions from performing actions, however). > ** Updated, the above is wrong, see later posts > Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > If there is an older vampires in torpor does Phillipe Rigaud must attempt to diablerize him or her again if he manages to unlock (assuming he was unsuccessful on the first attempt)? > > > Yes. > > > inm8 wrote: > > I´m thinking Phillipe Rigaud doesn´t need to try again because of the text "he must attempt a diablerie action" which he would have done ones already. > > > Diablerie actions are not restricted by the NRA. > I know diablerie actions are not restricted by the NRA but doesn´t the card text say/mean that only "a"/one diablerie action must be attempted??? Card text Sabbat. Black Hand: Phillipe cannot block undirected actions. When any older vampires are in torpor that Phillipe may diablerize, he must attempt a diablerie action (unless he must hunt).

2 question about Elen. 1) if you have locked minion,can Elen use any action cards to bleed (and she also get +1 bleed by she special) or equipment where you bleed with D action (example: Camera Phone or Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers)? 2) if Elen have Lunatic Eruption,and you have vampire who must hunt(I beleive hunt is before Lunatic Eruption),after vampire hunt what Elen can now,bleed by she text,use Lunatic Eruption or she stuck? Camera Phone Electronic equipment. The minion with this equipment may bleed at +1 bleed as a Ⓓ action. No other equipment can increase the bleed amount of this action. Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers Unique. The bearer gets -2 stealth when bleeding. This vampire can bleed as a Ⓓ action that costs 1 blood; this action gets +3 bleed if the target Methuselah does not control a ready unlocked minion. Lunatic Eruption e Ⓓ Put this card on any ready minion. During his or her minion phase, the minion with this card must enter combat with a ready minion controlled by his or her prey as a Ⓓ action (unless the minion must hunt). Any minion may burn this card as an action. E As above, and the minion taking the action to burn this card takes 1 unpreventable damage when this card is burned.

> beslin wrote: > 2 question about Elen. > > 1) if you have locked minion,can Elen use any action cards to bleed (and she also get +1 bleed by she special) or equipment where you bleed with D action (example: Camera Phone or Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers)? > No, she must bleed using the action described in her cardtext. > beslin wrote: > 2) if Elen have Lunatic Eruption,and you have vampire who must hunt(I beleive hunt is before Lunatic Eruption) > No, you can order mandatory actions has you wish. > beslin wrote: > ,after vampire hunt what Elen can now,bleed by she text,use Lunatic Eruption or she stuck? > She has two different mandatory actions to perform => she is stuck. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the Cry Wolf ruling being because NRA rules say that minion can only take an action granted by cards in play (including special ability on a minion) only once. So once Cry Wolf has taken his action (enter combat) that option does not exist for him any more. Thus if you manage to unlock him, he's free to do something else. Thus Philippe must attempt to diablerize again, as his special makes the action mandatory, but diablearia action itself is not granted by a card in play, nor does it belong to other actions limited by NRA (bleed, political). Having two or more mandatory actions leaves you stuck.

> Whisker wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the Cry Wolf ruling being because > Don´t know why the ruling introduced a new game mechanic/rule....perhaps it was always intended to work this way or it was determined that it was needed when giving the ruling. As per the rulebook both then and currently the minion is considered stuck and is overruled by the ruling thus allowed to take a different action. > Whisker wrote: > NRA rules say that minion can only take an action granted by cards in play (including special ability on a minion) only once. > Correct. > Whisker wrote: > So once Cry Wolf has taken his action (enter combat) that option does not exist for him any more. Thus if you manage to unlock him, he's free to do something else. > The NRA doesn't make an action/ability (disability) "disappear"...the rationale is a game mechanical one that unfortunately has yet to make it into the rulebook where it should explain that NRA´s that are made continuously mandatory only forces the minion to have to take it once per turn which isn´t the case for repeatable actions made continuously mandatory. > Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > Lunatic Eruption has been ruled [ANK 20200227] aligned with the Cry Wolf ruling [LSJ 20090226] , could you please share the rationale for the rulings to better understand why it was ruled that way? > > > Because the action cannot be repeated by the same minion. The Cry Wolf ruling implies that in that case, performing the mandatory action (provided by the card) once is enough. > > Whisker wrote: > Thus Philippe must attempt to diablerize again, as his special makes the action mandatory, but diablearia action itself is not granted by a card in play, nor does it belong to other actions limited by NRA (bleed, political). > > Having two or more mandatory actions leaves you stuck. > You are correct in that the card text below doesn´t provide a diablerie action but it force the vampire to attempt a diablerie action if the condition of an older vampire being in torpor is true...though the fact that it doesn´t provide a diablerie action is not the reason why it has to be done again if the vampire unlocks after having done it once...the reason is that the action that is being continuously made conditionally mandatory is a repeatable one. > When any older vampires are in torpor that Phillipe may diablerize, he must attempt a diablerie action (unless he must hunt). >

> inm8 wrote: > I know diablerie actions are not restricted by the NRA but doesn´t the card text say/mean that only "a"/one diablerie action must be attempted??? > > Card text > Sabbat. Black Hand: Phillipe cannot block undirected actions. When any older vampires are in torpor that Phillipe may diablerize, he must attempt a diablerie action (unless he must hunt). > "a" does not mean "one" but is just an article for a noun, here the action. The meaning of Phil's special is "diablerize, if you can", not once but as often as you are unlocked. Baron of Frankfurt

Thanks for pointing it out...I figured that out after that I wrote my post but good that you point it out so others don't have the same confusion as I did.

> Whisker wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the Cry Wolf ruling being because NRA rules say that minion can only take an action granted by cards in play (including special ability on a minion) only once. So once Cry Wolf has taken his action (enter combat) that option does not exist for him any more. Thus if you manage to unlock him, he's free to do something else. > > Thus Philippe must attempt to diablerize again, as his special makes the action mandatory, but diablearia action itself is not granted by a card in play, nor does it belong to other actions limited by NRA (bleed, political). > > Having two or more mandatory actions leaves you stuck. > Been thinking of this post for a bit and I think I missed your actual point, sorry for that. I now understand, agree with you, and is also what makes more sense than any other rationale/justification. I was barking down the wrong tree....it has nothing to do with handling non-repeatable actions differently from repeatable actions. The key is that actions provided by a "card in play" is only allowed to be done once per turn by the NRA rule...and to not contradict this rule we have these rulings.... thereby if it is an action provided by a "card in play" that is made continuously/repeatedly mandatory the need to perform that action is considered satisfied after doing it once per turn (aligning with the NRA rule) regardless of if the action is a repeatable one or not. @Ankha please confirm if the above is correct or not. Based on the above it would make sense to further clarify the rules in regards to actions provided by a "card in play" and would be best covered in a new section introduced covering the NRA as a whole. Currently, the rules (as far as I could find) only has the below mentioned about it...and also means that if a "card in play" provides more than one possible action then each one of those can be performed only once per turn.: > Rulebook > A minion cannot perform each action via the same card in play (including from the minion’s own card text) more than once each turn, even if they unlock. >

Ankha can you please advise on the below (if the Cry Wolf ruling and others similar are because of the NRA rule or not). > inm8 wrote: > > > Whisker wrote: > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the Cry Wolf ruling being because NRA rules say that minion can only take an action granted by cards in play (including special ability on a minion) only once. So once Cry Wolf has taken his action (enter combat) that option does not exist for him any more. Thus if you manage to unlock him, he's free to do something else. > > > > Thus Philippe must attempt to diablerize again, as his special makes the action mandatory, but diablearia action itself is not granted by a card in play, nor does it belong to other actions limited by NRA (bleed, political). > > > > Having two or more mandatory actions leaves you stuck. > > > Been thinking of this post for a bit and I think I missed your actual point, sorry for that. > I now understand, agree with you, and is also what makes more sense than any other rationale/justification. I was barking down the wrong tree....it has nothing to do with handling non-repeatable actions differently from repeatable actions. > > The key is that actions provided by a "card in play" is only allowed to be done once per turn by the NRA rule...and to not contradict this rule we have these rulings.... thereby if it is an action provided by a "card in play" that is made continuously/repeatedly mandatory the need to perform that action is considered satisfied after doing it once per turn (aligning with the NRA rule) regardless of if the action is a repeatable one or not. > > @Ankha please confirm if the above is correct or not. > > Based on the above it would make sense to further clarify the rules in regards to actions provided by a "card in play" and would be best covered in a new section introduced covering the NRA as a whole. > > Currently, the rules (as far as I could find) only has the below mentioned about it...and also means that if a "card in play" provides more than one possible action then each one of those can be performed only once per turn.: > > > Rulebook > > A minion cannot perform each action via the same card in play (including from the minion’s own card text) more than once each turn, even if they unlock. > >

> inm8 wrote: > The key is that actions provided by a "card in play" is only allowed to be done once per turn by the NRA rule...and to not contradict this rule we have these rulings.... thereby if it is an action provided by a "card in play" that is made continuously/repeatedly mandatory the need to perform that action is considered satisfied after doing it once per turn (aligning with the NRA rule) > That's the ruling, indeed. > inm8 wrote: > regardless of if the action is a repeatable one or not. > Mandatory actions provided by cards are not repeatable because of the NRA, so this addition is moot. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director