The question is simple :
In case of a played sup Mirror Walk and a successfull block, does the acting minion as a timing to use the slave trait to unlock ?
And would there still be a combat ?
We ruled that both answers are "No" but we would like a confirmation.
>
> Name: Mirror Walk
> [Third:C, KoT:C, SP:PwN6, V5:PTr6]
> Cardtype: Action Modifier
> Discipline: Thaumaturgy
> Do not replace until your discard phase.
> [tha] +1 stealth.
> [THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution.
> Artist: Brian LeBlanc
>
> Slave rules :
> Slave: Some minions are identified as slaves to a specified clan. A slave cannot perform a directed action if their controller does not control a ready member of the specified clan. Also, if a member of the specified clan controlled by the same Methuselah is blocked, the controller can lock the slave to cancel the combat and to unlock the acting vampire and have the slave enter combat with the blocking minion instead.
>
I found this LSJ ruling about mirror walk timing :
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/PyCEvjx5Oq8/m/e036rmxAzyMJ
Dear Timo,
I would say Mirror Walk ends the action first. I understand that, if there is no block resolution, there is no combat so it is not possible to unlock the acting minion using the Slave Advantage,
From the online rulebook of this web page:
3. Resolve the Action
(...)
If the action is blocked, then any card played to perform the action is burned and the block is resolved with these two simultaneous consequences: the blocking minion is locked and enters combat with the acting minion (see Combat).
If an effect ends the action before the block resolution or one of these two consequences (such as entering combat), neither consequence occurs.
(...)
Regards,
Rémi.
I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona.
Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar:
sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/
For the sake of argument, it looks to me that both effect have the same timing (before block resolution). It could simply be up to the acting Methuselah to decide if they're locking their slave or not before Mirror's Walk effect kicks in.
> lip wrote:
> For the sake of argument, it looks to me that both effect have the same timing (before block resolution). It could simply be up to the acting Methuselah to decide if they're locking their slave or not before Mirror's Walk effect kicks in.
>
I´m with Remi, the time windows are different, Mirror Walk ends the action before block resolution while the slave rule effect cancels the combat which would mean it triggers when entering combat which is part of the block resolution.
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > lip wrote:
> > For the sake of argument, it looks to me that both effect have the same timing (before block resolution). It could simply be up to the acting Methuselah to decide if they're locking their slave or not before Mirror's Walk effect kicks in.
> >
> I´m with Remi, the time windows are different, Mirror Walk ends the action before block resolution while the slave rule effect cancels the combat which would mean it triggers when entering combat which is part of the block resolution.
>
I am also on this team ^^
Unless the Slave mechanics have changed, it's always been the acting minion's controllers ability to choose if they wish to choose order of effects that are happening at the same time. As has been the ability to choose when the action is "blocked". Now for effects happening at the same time, including Change of Target and Slave rule, LSJ goes into over this topic back in 2009 groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/gHxAgyP15Vo/m/ogFybBQmaD0J
>
> > On May 13, 3:39 pm, LSJ < > wrote:
> >> The acting Methuselah declares the block successful (and then passes: no Change
> >> of Target), causing the blocking vampire to tap and enter combat (or play
> >> Obedience).
> >
> > I'm not sure I get it.
>
> The acting Methuselah makes the block successful, not the blocking Methuselah.
> That point addresses your previous query.
> ________
>
> > Let's introduce a new element, the Promise of
> > 1528: it can be used to defend an acting vampire or a reacting
> > vampire.
> > You know I much I like to divide things, and have mini-subphases
> > everywhere to sequence things properly. L et me try this here :
> > Acting minion is blocked. This is how I think things are sequenced.
> > a1 - Acting minion can play cards or use effects as he is blocked:
> > Change of Target, Aching beauty, use the Slave rule, ..
>
> when a block is successful, yes.
> ________
>
> > a2 - Reacting minion can play cards as he blocks: Minor Irritation,> burn acting's blood to the Banshee Ironwail, Voice of Madness, Mental
> > Maze,Yes.> .. (funny those two get to be played before Obedience..)
>
> ? Obedience is in that list.Of course, it ends the action, so if you want to play "those two", you'd have to
> play them first. And, of course, VoM cancels combat (thwarting Obedience's
> requirement) and MM ends the action (precluding playing other cards after).
> ________
>
> > a1& a2 only happen when there is an acting minion blocked.
> >
> > At this point, minions are about to enter combat.
>
> Minions were about to enter combat when the acting Methuselah declared the block
> successful.
> ________
>
> > b1 - acting Meth may use "about to enter combat" effects: Promise of
> > 1528, Diamond Thunderbolt (if it's a Malkavian acting via Madness
> > Network / a vampire using the Enkil Cog)These were all options in a1.
>
> There is no separate b1.
> ________
> > b2 - reacting minion may use "about to enter combat" effects:
> > Obedience, Ohoyo Hopoksia, Diamond Thunderbolt, Promise of 1528 ..
> > But b1& b2 seem to happen whenever a combat should start (that is
> > successful action to enter combat, successful block, and, as it seems,> Yawp Court.)
>
> These are part of a2.
> ________
>
> > Your answer sounds like there is no such division - as if you skipped
> > from a2 to b2. Let me ask this question, it will help me get things
> > clear:
> > If my acting Giovanni is blocked by a Camarilla vampire, can I play
> > Promise of 1528 without burning 1 blood to the blocking vampire's
> > Banshee Ironwail?
>
> You could play it before burning the blood. But you'd still burn the blood (justlike the blocking Camarilla vampire would still tap).
>
It's the acting Methuselah that has the option to choose when the action is blocked, aka they no longer play any cards for stealth or use other effects. After that per order of play ABC(acting, blocking, clockwise) gets the say on what effects to trigger as the action is blocked. LSJ is quite clear on when the "about to enter combat" happens, it is tied to acting methuselah declaring block succesful. Note Change of Target and compare it's wording to Mirror Walk;
>
> Name: Change of Target
> [Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PAB2, LoB:PG2/PI2, KoT:U/PM3, SP:LB4, FB:PTo4, V5:PTo2]
> Cardtype: Action Modifier
> Only usable if this minion is blocked, before block resolution.
> Unlock this minion, and the action ends (unsuccessfully). This minion cannot perform the same action again this turn.
> Artist: Dan Frazier; Chris Stevens
>
> ________
>
> Name: Mirror Walk
> [Third:C, KoT:C, SP:PwN6, V5:PTr6]
> Cardtype: Action Modifier
> Discipline: Thaumaturgy
> Do not replace until your discard phase.
> [tha] +1 stealth.
> [THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution.
> Artist: Brian LeBlanc
>
> ________
>
> Slave: Some minions are identified as slaves to a specified clan. A slave cannot perform a directed action if their controller does not control a ready member of the specified clan. Also, if a member of the specified clan controlled by the same Methuselah is blocked, the controller can lock the slave to cancel the combat and to unlock the acting vampire and have the slave enter combat with the blocking minion instead.
>
And note how Change of Target sits next to Slave rule. And by extension, so does Mirror walk. All call for "is blocked", that the acting methuselah decides and has the sequenced right to act first and choose what to trigger first.
Now granted, things might have changed since 2009, Slave rule might have been modified, as could have happened with the card texts, but until proven otherwise, this is still how things are.
So TL:DR
Controller of the acting minion can choose timing and can use the slave rule to unlock before superior Mirror Walk action end.
The Resulting combat is different then the one tied to the block resolution as the slave was never blocked and instead just enters the combat with the blocker. This also means if the blocker is a vampire it cannot escape with reaction Obedience as the slave gargoyle is not acting younger vampire.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
> Kilrauko wrote:
> Unless the Slave mechanics have changed, it's always been the acting minion's controllers ability to choose if they wish to choose order of effects that are happening at the same time. As has been the ability to choose when the action is "blocked". Now for effects happening at the same time, including Change of Target and Slave rule, LSJ goes into over this topic back in 2009 groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/gHxAgyP15Vo/m/ogFybBQmaD0J
> >
> > > On May 13, 3:39 pm, LSJ < > wrote:
> > >> The acting Methuselah declares the block successful (and then passes: no Change
> > >> of Target), causing the blocking vampire to tap and enter combat (or play
> > >> Obedience).
> > >
> > > I'm not sure I get it.
> >
> > The acting Methuselah makes the block successful, not the blocking Methuselah.
> > That point addresses your previous query.
> > ________
> >
> > > Let's introduce a new element, the Promise of
> > > 1528: it can be used to defend an acting vampire or a reacting
> > > vampire.
> > > You know I much I like to divide things, and have mini-subphases
> > > everywhere to sequence things properly. L et me try this here :
> > > Acting minion is blocked. This is how I think things are sequenced.
> > > a1 - Acting minion can play cards or use effects as he is blocked:
> > > Change of Target, Aching beauty, use the Slave rule, ..
> >
> > when a block is successful, yes.
> > ________
> >
> > > a2 - Reacting minion can play cards as he blocks: Minor Irritation,> burn acting's blood to the Banshee Ironwail, Voice of Madness, Mental
> > > Maze,Yes.> .. (funny those two get to be played before Obedience..)
> >
> > ? Obedience is in that list.Of course, it ends the action, so if you want to play "those two", you'd have to
> > play them first. And, of course, VoM cancels combat (thwarting Obedience's
> > requirement) and MM ends the action (precluding playing other cards after).
> > ________
> >
> > > a1& a2 only happen when there is an acting minion blocked.
> > >
> > > At this point, minions are about to enter combat.
> >
> > Minions were about to enter combat when the acting Methuselah declared the block
> > successful.
> > ________
> >
> > > b1 - acting Meth may use "about to enter combat" effects: Promise of
> > > 1528, Diamond Thunderbolt (if it's a Malkavian acting via Madness
> > > Network / a vampire using the Enkil Cog)These were all options in a1.
> >
> > There is no separate b1.
> > ________
> > > b2 - reacting minion may use "about to enter combat" effects:
> > > Obedience, Ohoyo Hopoksia, Diamond Thunderbolt, Promise of 1528 ..
> > > But b1& b2 seem to happen whenever a combat should start (that is
> > > successful action to enter combat, successful block, and, as it seems,> Yawp Court.)
> >
> > These are part of a2.
> > ________
> >
> > > Your answer sounds like there is no such division - as if you skipped
> > > from a2 to b2. Let me ask this question, it will help me get things
> > > clear:
> > > If my acting Giovanni is blocked by a Camarilla vampire, can I play
> > > Promise of 1528 without burning 1 blood to the blocking vampire's
> > > Banshee Ironwail?
> >
> > You could play it before burning the blood. But you'd still burn the blood (justlike the blocking Camarilla vampire would still tap).
> >
> It's the acting Methuselah that has the option to choose when the action is blocked, aka they no longer play any cards for stealth or use other effects. After that per order of play ABC(acting, blocking, clockwise) gets the say on what effects to trigger as the action is blocked. LSJ is quite clear on when the "about to enter combat" happens, it is tied to acting methuselah declaring block succesful. Note Change of Target and compare it's wording to Mirror Walk;
> >
> > Name: Change of Target
> > [Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PAB2, LoB:PG2/PI2, KoT:U/PM3, SP:LB4, FB:PTo4, V5:PTo2]
> > Cardtype: Action Modifier
> > Only usable if this minion is blocked, before block resolution.
> > Unlock this minion, and the action ends (unsuccessfully). This minion cannot perform the same action again this turn.
> > Artist: Dan Frazier; Chris Stevens
> >
> > ________
> >
> > Name: Mirror Walk
> > [Third:C, KoT:C, SP:PwN6, V5:PTr6]
> > Cardtype: Action Modifier
> > Discipline: Thaumaturgy
> > Do not replace until your discard phase.
> > [tha] +1 stealth.
> > [THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution.
> > Artist: Brian LeBlanc
> >
> > ________
> >
> > Slave: Some minions are identified as slaves to a specified clan. A slave cannot perform a directed action if their controller does not control a ready member of the specified clan. Also, if a member of the specified clan controlled by the same Methuselah is blocked, the controller can lock the slave to cancel the combat and to unlock the acting vampire and have the slave enter combat with the blocking minion instead.
> >
> And note how Change of Target sits next to Slave rule. And by extension, so does Mirror walk. All call for "is blocked", that the acting methuselah decides and has the sequenced right to act first and choose what to trigger first.
>
> Now granted, things might have changed since 2009, Slave rule might have been modified, as could have happened with the card texts, but until proven otherwise, this is still how things are.
>
> So TL:DR
> Controller of the acting minion can choose timing and can use the slave rule to unlock before superior Mirror Walk action end.
>
> The Resulting combat is different then the one tied to the block resolution as the slave was never blocked and instead just enters the combat with the blocker. This also means if the blocker is a vampire it cannot escape with reaction Obedience as the slave gargoyle is not acting younger vampire.
>
The distinction here is that the effect of Mirror Walk is already in play when the acting player chooses that the action is blocked, immediately ending the action which can no longer be modified or reacted to and therefore also includes invoking the slave rule. The ruling [LSJ 20071015] provided by Timo in the opening post makes good examples of situations with the same time window as the salve rule not being playable when the effect of Mirror Walk is in play.
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > <snipeti snip>
> >
> The distinction here is that the effect of Mirror Walk is already in play when the acting player chooses that the action is blocked, immediately ending the action which can no longer be modified or reacted to and therefore also includes invoking the slave rule. The ruling [LSJ 20071015] provided by Timo in the opening post makes good examples of situations with the same time window as the salve rule not being playable when the effect of Mirror Walk is in play.
>
Please note that nothing in Mirror Walk says it prevents the acting Methuselah from choosing what effects happen in what order during the same step. It does not in fact say action "immediately ends" but instead per card text; "...end the action before block resolution." As long as the action has not ended, controller can play action modifiers and other methuselah can play reaction cards in addition to usage of various effects. If you wish for that kind of effect, check Kiss or Ra and Obedience;
>
> Name: The Kiss of Ra [AH:U5, FN:PR, CE:PV, Anarchs:PG, LoB:PI] Cardtype: Action Modifier Cost: 3 blood Discipline: Fortitude Only usable when a vampire who does not have Fortitude [for] attempts to block this acting minion. [for] The block attempt is canceled, the blocking vampire burns 2 blood, and the current action is ended (without combat). [FOR] As above, and send the blocking vampire to torpor. Artist: Sandra Everingham
> ____
> Name: Obedience
> [Jyhad:U, VTES:U, Sabbat:U, SW:PV, CE:U, Third:U, HttB:PKia3, SP:PoS2]
> Cardtype: Reaction
> Discipline: Dominate
> Only usable {if} this vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire.
> [dom] Unlock the acting vampire and end the action. (Do not lock this vampire if they are blocking.) The acting vampire cannot take the same action this turn.
> [DOM] As above, but do not unlock the acting vampire.
> Artist: Ron Spencer; L. A. Williams; Oliver Meinerding
>
that end the action right as their effect resolves, instead waiting for "before block resolution." If design intent for Mirror Walk was to somehow prevent effects and cards being played, it would be worded differently. What's more, there is no "immediate" effect that runs away from controlling methuselah somehow past their grasp, they're the ones who choose and declare it when it happens. This is laid out in detail in the www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary
>
> PLAYING CARDS AND OTHER EFFECTS [1.6]
> ...
> B. Declare the effect. Fully announce the effect (as applicable: the minion playing/using it, targets, cost, and so on). If the effect is a card, play the card to the playing area. You cannot play a card or use an effect whose cost cannot be paid. For cards, this step (II.B) is the "as played" window. Cards that can cancel a card "as it is played" can be played at this time, as can Wake-style cards whose effects grant the ability to play those effects. Other cards and effects cannot be used at this time. If the card is canceled, skip to step D. For cards, your hand size is reduced by 1 until you replace the card (step D).
>
Please note how other cards and effects aside from "as it is played cancels" cannot be used before it starts to resolve...
>
> C. Replace the card (after handling all pending "as played" windows).
> 1. If the card text says not to replace until later (and is wasn't canceled as played), then your hand size is effectively reduced until the card is replaced. (I.E.2)
> 2. If a card is canceled, any "do not replace" clause on it is canceled as well.
>
> D. Pay cost and resolve effect (unless canceled in step B).
> ...
> 3. For all other cards, pay cost to resolve effect immediately.
> a. Pay cost.
> b. Resolve effect.
> c. Action modifiers and reaction cards that may be put in play depending on the success of the action (or of a block attempt) are "in limbo" until that is determined. [RTR]
>
And once the effect is resolving, well, things go as they do, any other riding effects that are no longer valid, well, they're no longer valid. They're the strikes with Bang Nakh when opponent has released Canine Hordes with first strike.
If you need further consolation on things being how I present them, please note 2009 is later then 2007, and we tend to go with the latest relevant ruling as opposed to the earliest. Hence why I specifically mentioned if someone produces more recent ruling relating to the matter, that makes my post moot. Change in the terminology of Chance of Target and/or Slave rule also might affect, as those are referenced but not provided the exact wording. For Mirror Walk we're only interested in the current wording, as it used to be different in 3rd edition printing. This might also be reason why LSJ has answered regarding Mirror Walk as he did back in 2007, when the wording was as follows;
>
> Name: Mirror Walk
> [Third:C]
> Cardtype: Action Modifier
> Discipline: Thaumaturgy
> Do not replace until your discard phase.
> [tha] +1 stealth.
> [THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, the action ends (with no combat).
> Artist: Brian LeBlanc
>
Note how the placement of *when* action ends changes and how that version of Mirror Walk is more similar to current Kiss of Ra. After the "the action ends" effect is resolved, nobody can play action modifiers or reactions anymore unless The Golden Rule for Cards says otherwise. The Current Mirror Walk ends the action *before* block resolution. Per detailed play there are multiple steps between "declare block succesful" and "resolve block" that enable playing cards and effects provided they're valid for that window. The Window being "is blocked".
>
> 3. If action was blocked, the action is unsuccessful and blocked. [6.2.3]
> a. The cost of the action is not paid. The action card, if any, is burned.
> b. Lock blocking minion.
> c. If the acting minion was acting from the ready region, he enters combat with the blocking minion (VI)
> d. If the acting minion was acting from torpor and the blocking minion is a vampire, the blocker may diablerize the acting vampire. (VIII) [6.5.2]
>
> E. Action ends (after all combats and other effects to be applied to the action are resolved).
> NOTE: Action modifiers may be played only by the acting minion at any time in the above sequence as allowed by the card. Any cost for playing the modifier is paid immediately. [6.2.3] The same minion may not use the same action modifier again in the current action. [1.6.3.2] Only action modifiers appropriate to the action may be played. e.g., you may not use a +1 bleed effect on a non-bleed action. [RTR]
>
Naturally the acting methuselah can play also choose and play other appropiate effects then just action modifiers, otherwise they could not declare the superior Mirror Walk to happen (it does not declare itself.)
Overall this showcases why it's important to understand and seek the context surrounding ruling instead blindly following it as the way cards are worded has changed over the years. It's also why one needs to be open for being proven wrong, for all I know I'm quoting outdated information that no longer applies. But until someone does that, I'm quite content with my reasoning on this.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Yes 2007 is older than 2009 but the 2009 ruling you are referencing says nothing specificaly about mirror walk and no change of rule/mirror walk reworking had happen between those 2 dates.
And so IMO, the 2007 ruling do not have any reason to change and LSJ stated that the acting could not play anything between the "action is blocked" announcement and the triggering of the "end the action" effect of mirror walk.
> Timo wrote:
> Yes 2007 is older than 2009 but the 2009 ruling you are referencing says nothing specificaly about mirror walk and no change of rule/mirror walk reworking had happen between those 2 dates.
>
> And so IMO, the 2007 ruling do not have any reason to change and LSJ stated that the acting could not play anything between the "action is blocked" announcement and the triggering of the "end the action" effect of mirror walk.
>
It is not about Mirror Walk being mentioned in the ruling, it is about the timing used by the Mirror Walk being now (2021) similar to the wording that is discussed regarding the 2009 cards and effects. By your logic above, taken to absurd extreme to highlight the issue, I could claim ruling for Pentex™ Subversion from 2007 mentioning the "cannot act" is better then ruling from 2009 dealing with cards that have similar wording and effect to the current 2021 Pentex™ Subversion. Just because the card was not changed between 2007 and 2009, does not mean it's current iteration is equal to the terms discussed in the 2007 or 2009 ruling. Expecting them to somehow be psychic in 2009 to know the card text would be changed in the future to match mechanics now is as absurd as expecting them to plan that 2007 judgement based on current changed card text.
Please read the following quoted sentence they use to explain the card text in that 2007 ruling groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/PyCEvjx5Oq8/m/e036rmxAzyMJ and compare it to the current card text of Mirror Walk (I'll provide the quotes but if it makes it easier for you to look at it with open mind see it via the links provided). www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt
>
> > ...and plays superior Mirror Walk to try to
> > get it through ("+1 stealth, and if this action is blocked, the action
> > ends (with no combat).") ...
>
That's the text and card mechanic LSJ is referencing when making the call;
>
> No. When it is blocked, the action ends.
>
Because that was how the card was worded back then. The Action end was tied to being blocked. That is not how Mirror Walk action end is currently worded. LSJ was not referencing the current wording in 2007 nor could he predict it in 2009;
>
> [THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution.
>
If you cannot see the difference between the 2007 version of Mirror Walk superior text and the current 2021 version, any further conversation, proof or quotes from me are moot as I assume you'll only accept explanation and ruling that has current rubber stamp of authority with it. I hope they go to enough detail over the timing windows with quotes so the reply can be referenced in the future as well. And if I'm proven wrong, hey, that's swell as well as I can stop players from playing the Mirror Walk and slave interaction the way they have been doing it.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Yes I can see the difference.
But the rewording was done not to have the card function differently but to smooth the global templating of the game. Otherwise it would have been announced as a modification of the card effect and not merely printed with a different card text.
What I say is based on the opinion (I could be wrong) that the intent when changing the card text was for clarity and not for mechanical change.
And, yes, I *am* waiting for a stamp by Ankha for an actual official answer (and yes, it would be great if there was with it the reasoning behind the answer).
Thanks for the heads up Ankha, eagerly awaiting your answer.
Also i want to say thanks to all of you participating in the discussion for presenting your arguments and thoughts which i find very interesting and valuable as it provides different points of views. It is clear one has always more to learn in this game and your shared research and conclusions help a lot in understanding how and why things work as they do.
>
> Kilrauko wrote:
> Please note that nothing in Mirror Walk says it prevents the acting Methuselah from choosing what effects happen in what order during the same step. It does not in fact say action "immediately ends" but instead per card text; "...end the action before block resolution." As long as the action has not ended, controller can play action modifiers and other methuselah can play reaction cards in addition to usage of various effects. If you wish for that kind of effect, check Kiss or Ra and Obedience;
> >
> > Name: The Kiss of Ra [AH:U5, FN:PR, CE:PV, Anarchs:PG, LoB:PI] Cardtype: Action Modifier Cost: 3 blood Discipline: Fortitude Only usable when a vampire who does not have Fortitude [for] attempts to block this acting minion. [for] The block attempt is canceled, the blocking vampire burns 2 blood, and the current action is ended (without combat). [FOR] As above, and send the blocking vampire to torpor. Artist: Sandra Everingham
> > ____
> > Name: Obedience
> > [Jyhad:U, VTES:U, Sabbat:U, SW:PV, CE:U, Third:U, HttB:PKia3, SP:PoS2]
> > Cardtype: Reaction
> > Discipline: Dominate
> > Only usable {if} this vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire.
> > [dom] Unlock the acting vampire and end the action. (Do not lock this vampire if they are blocking.) The acting vampire cannot take the same action this turn.
> > [DOM] As above, but do not unlock the acting vampire.
> > Artist: Ron Spencer; L. A. Williams; Oliver Meinerding
> >
> that end the action right as their effect resolves, instead waiting for "before block resolution." If design intent for Mirror Walk was to somehow prevent effects and cards being played, it would be worded differently.
>
You are absolutely right that the rules nor the card text doesn't dictate the sequence of effects during the same step nor do they say that the action ends immediately for the "end the action" effects...no one has said it does....but the ruling from LSJ 20071015 says it does end immediately or rather as soon as the action is blocked.
There is a number of rulings insinuating and/or explicitly say that "end the action" effects are immediate which when going into effect close the window for any further modification, reaction and/or effect to be played/triggered.
Kiss of Ra nor Obedience say anything of immediately ending the action still they do...that Mirror Walk say "...lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution" places the resolution of this earlier played effect that is siting in limbo awaiting to see if the stealth provided will either allow the action to succeed making it fizzle or to provide a way out of the block resolution (mainly the combat) by ending the action before it as a defensive part of the effect...don't see why Mirror Walk´s end of action would be any different just because it has been placed with precision between the acting player choosing the action to be considered blocked and before the block resolution.
> Kilrauko wrote:
>
> What's more, there is no "immediate" effect that runs away from controlling methuselah somehow past their grasp, they're the ones who choose and declare it when it happens. This is laid out in detail in the www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary
> >
> > PLAYING CARDS AND OTHER EFFECTS [1.6]
> > ...
> > B. Declare the effect. Fully announce the effect (as applicable: the minion playing/using it, targets, cost, and so on). If the effect is a card, play the card to the playing area. You cannot play a card or use an effect whose cost cannot be paid. For cards, this step (II.B) is the "as played" window. Cards that can cancel a card "as it is played" can be played at this time, as can Wake-style cards whose effects grant the ability to play those effects. Other cards and effects cannot be used at this time. If the card is canceled, skip to step D. For cards, your hand size is reduced by 1 until you replace the card (step D).
> >
> Please note how other cards and effects aside from "as it is played cancels" cannot be used before it starts to resolve...
> >
> > C. Replace the card (after handling all pending "as played" windows).
> > 1. If the card text says not to replace until later (and is wasn't canceled as played), then your hand size is effectively reduced until the card is replaced. (I.E.2)
> > 2. If a card is canceled, any "do not replace" clause on it is canceled as well.
> >
> > D. Pay cost and resolve effect (unless canceled in step B).
> > ...
> > 3. For all other cards, pay cost to resolve effect immediately.
> > a. Pay cost.
> > b. Resolve effect.
> > c. Action modifiers and reaction cards that may be put in play depending on the success of the action (or of a block attempt) are "in limbo" until that is determined. [RTR]
> >
> And once the effect is resolving, well, things go as they do, any other riding effects that are no longer valid, well, they're no longer valid. They're the strikes with Bang Nakh when opponent has released Canine Hordes with first strike.
>
> If you need further consolation on things being how I present them, please note 2009 is later then 2007, and we tend to go with the latest relevant ruling as opposed to the earliest. Hence why I specifically mentioned if someone produces more recent ruling relating to the matter, that makes my post moot. Change in the terminology of Chance of Target and/or Slave rule also might affect, as those are referenced but not provided the exact wording. For Mirror Walk we're only interested in the current wording, as it used to be different in 3rd edition printing. This might also be reason why LSJ has answered regarding Mirror Walk as he did back in 2007, when the wording was as follows;
> >
> > Name: Mirror Walk
> > [Third:C]
> > Cardtype: Action Modifier
> > Discipline: Thaumaturgy
> > Do not replace until your discard phase.
> > [tha] +1 stealth.
> > [THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, the action ends (with no combat).
> > Artist: Brian LeBlanc
> >
> Note how the placement of *when* action ends changes and how that version of Mirror Walk is more similar to current Kiss of Ra. After the "the action ends" effect is resolved, nobody can play action modifiers or reactions anymore unless The Golden Rule for Cards says otherwise. The Current Mirror Walk ends the action *before* block resolution. Per detailed play there are multiple steps between "declare block succesful" and "resolve block" that enable playing cards and effects provided they're valid for that window. The Window being "is blocked".
> >
> > 3. If action was blocked, the action is unsuccessful and blocked. [6.2.3]
> > a. The cost of the action is not paid. The action card, if any, is burned.
> > b. Lock blocking minion.
> > c. If the acting minion was acting from the ready region, he enters combat with the blocking minion (VI)
> > d. If the acting minion was acting from torpor and the blocking minion is a vampire, the blocker may diablerize the acting vampire. (VIII) [6.5.2]
> >
> > E. Action ends (after all combats and other effects to be applied to the action are resolved).
> > NOTE: Action modifiers may be played only by the acting minion at any time in the above sequence as allowed by the card. Any cost for playing the modifier is paid immediately. [6.2.3] The same minion may not use the same action modifier again in the current action. [1.6.3.2] Only action modifiers appropriate to the action may be played. e.g., you may not use a +1 bleed effect on a non-bleed action. [RTR]
> >
> Naturally the acting methuselah can play also choose and play other appropiate effects then just action modifiers, otherwise they could not declare the superior Mirror Walk to happen (it does not declare itself.)
>
As far as i understand the card text changes to Mirror Walk it changes when the effect is resolved which now is between the acting player choosing that the action is blocked and the block resolution step aka "before the block resolution" (which isn't mentioned at all in the Detailed Play Summary nor in the rulebook and isn't an actual step but a time window between steps) and it now explicitly locks the blocking minion instead of being locked by the fact that the blocking minion entered the block resolution step which means the ruling from LSJ 20071015 is still relevant even though old....
In the LSJ 20071015 ruling the question is whether the triggering of another effect when the acting player chooses that the action is blocked while Mirror Walk´s effect to "end the action" is in limbo from previously playing it for stealth at superior is possible or not and has been ruled as not possible. That the ruling say it isn't possible insinuates that the effect "end the action" is immediate (when the condition for it is met, which in this case is when the acting minion is blocked) as it doesn't allow further modifications, reactions and or effects to be played ....which to me makes perfect sense aligning it to the same handling of the other "end the action" effects....furthermore the ruling provided from LSJ 20090513 which links to a number of others don´t negate LSJ 20071015 .
That we go with the latest ruling for the relevant card text i think is clear for most of us and also that the current wording of Mirror Walk is the only one of interest for this discussion (though i don´t think the change in wording invalidates LSJ 20071015 ruling) i also think is assumed by most of us but thanks for pointing it out.
All the "steps" you refer to between "declare block successful" and "resolve block" is what is referred to as the "block resolution" and is one step with a number of things/actions happening and they happen simultaneously even though listed in bullet/letter points.
The declaration of superior Mirror Walk is done by the acting player as part of playing it for stealth in the previous stage when the active player had priority/impulse and the effect is in limbo awaiting the conclusion of the block attempt....so no it doesn't happen by/declare itself.
>
> Kilrauko wrote:
>
> Overall this showcases why it's important to understand and seek the context surrounding ruling instead blindly following it as the way cards are worded has changed over the years. It's also why one needs to be open for being proven wrong, for all I know I'm quoting outdated information that no longer applies. But until someone does that, I'm quite content with my reasoning on this.
>
No one so far has been arguing that is just because the ruling says so and posts do show that real thought and consideration has been taken when presenting the different points of views and how they are concluded/motivated....i fully agree that the understanding of the rationale of the rulings are very important when discussing the rules ...specially as it has and keeps on evolving with re-wordings etc.
I have been wrong in the past and i´m entirely ok with it if i am....the only interest for me is and should be for us all is to get to the correct answers/conclusion what ever it is.
> Kilrauko wrote:
>
> > Timo wrote:
> > Yes 2007 is older than 2009 but the 2009 ruling you are referencing says nothing specificaly about mirror walk and no change of rule/mirror walk reworking had happen between those 2 dates.
> >
> > And so IMO, the 2007 ruling do not have any reason to change and LSJ stated that the acting could not play anything between the "action is blocked" announcement and the triggering of the "end the action" effect of mirror walk.
> >
> It is not about Mirror Walk being mentioned in the ruling, it is about the timing used by the Mirror Walk being now (2021) similar to the wording that is discussed regarding the 2009 cards and effects. By your logic above, taken to absurd extreme to highlight the issue, I could claim ruling for Pentex™ Subversion from 2007 mentioning the "cannot act" is better then ruling from 2009 dealing with cards that have similar wording and effect to the current 2021 Pentex™ Subversion. Just because the card was not changed between 2007 and 2009, does not mean it's current iteration is equal to the terms discussed in the 2007 or 2009 ruling. Expecting them to somehow be psychic in 2009 to know the card text would be changed in the future to match mechanics now is as absurd as expecting them to plan that 2007 judgement based on current changed card text.
>
> Please read the following quoted sentence they use to explain the card text in that 2007 ruling groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/PyCEvjx5Oq8/m/e036rmxAzyMJ and compare it to the current card text of Mirror Walk (I'll provide the quotes but if it makes it easier for you to look at it with open mind see it via the links provided). www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt
> >
> > > ...and plays superior Mirror Walk to try to
> > > get it through ("+1 stealth, and if this action is blocked, the action
> > > ends (with no combat).") ...
> >
> That's the text and card mechanic LSJ is referencing when making the call;
> >
> > No. When it is blocked, the action ends.
> >
> Because that was how the card was worded back then. The Action end was tied to being blocked. That is not how Mirror Walk action end is currently worded. LSJ was not referencing the current wording in 2007 nor could he predict it in 2009;
> >
> > [THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution.
> >
> If you cannot see the difference between the 2007 version of Mirror Walk superior text and the current 2021 version, any further conversation, proof or quotes from me are moot as I assume you'll only accept explanation and ruling that has current rubber stamp of authority with it. I hope they go to enough detail over the timing windows with quotes so the reply can be referenced in the future as well. And if I'm proven wrong, hey, that's swell as well as I can stop players from playing the Mirror Walk and slave interaction the way they have been doing it.
>
Action end is still tied to being blocked in both versions of Mirror Walk.
The original wording places the resolution of the effect in the block resolution step prior to combat but retaining the need to lock the blocking minion (by the block resolution action 3b). The reworded version places the resolution of the effect in a new time window (created by RTR 20180719 to address the unclarity of when a blocking minion is locked but does not enter combat, and when a blocking minion is not locked and does not enter combat) between the steps of declaring the block successful and block resolution and makes the locking of the blocking minion explicit. How the “end the action” effect part of it is resolved has not changed.
First of all, my apologies for not mentioning that Mirror Walk has slightly changed with the release of the Sabbat deck "Rise of the Nephandi" (it should have been mentioned in the February's newsletter ):
Mirror Walk: Now explicitly locks the blocking minion. (SP, 16/02/2019)
This is because Mirror Walk no longer activates half of the block resolution and cancels the other half but triggers before the whole block resolution.
I'd also like to mention another change that has been forgotten in when the newsletter was released, even though this has nothing to do with our matter:
Telepathic Tracking: The card is played when the combat would end, and replaces this by starting a new round. Telepathic Tracking is always played before Psyche! because Psyche! is played when combat is about to end (that is after any replacement effects). (SP, 16/02/2019)
Now, to our subject.
LSJ was considering that some delayed effect that would do something specific (such as ending an action) had a "higher priory" than other effects. I dislike this approach because it's not easy to categorize effects by function and therefore determine which effects should have such a priority (and it's like opening a can of worm: see also Seeds of Corruption and how hard it is to define "special abilities" and "restrictions" ).
Mirror Walk states: "if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution.". It's a delayed effect that happens as soon as the condition is met, before any Methuselah can play other cards or use other effects in that same timing window (it is not possible to "interrupt" the resolution of an effect by playing other unrelated effects, even if they share the same timing window). The consequence of this is a REVERSAL of the last part of LSJ 20090513 about Promise of 1528: you cannot play it before burning the blood or life to the Banshee Ironwail.
However, any other delayed effects that trigger at the same time (e.g., Banshee Ironwail) must still be handled. This is why the acting minion should still burn 1 blood or life if they were blocked by a minion with a Banshee Ironwail, even if they played Mirror Walk. Please note that Banshee Ironwail states "(before combat begins, if any)" which is the same timing window as "before block resolution".
The slave rule has not changed: it requires a combat resulting from a block to happen in order to be activated. If the action is ended before the block resolution, then the slave rule cannot be used. It's due to its condition of activation as well as its timing. Please note that if the slave rule were reworded as Mirror Walk, it still wouldn't be usable because it would interrupt the pending effects.
Sowing Dissension's current text ("If this action is blocked by a non-titled vampire, the acting anarch can burn 1 blood to cancel combat and unlock.") requires a combat to happen so it does not work for the same reasons as the slave rule, even if it's a delayed effect. Please note that if Sowing Dissension were reworded as Mirror Walk, the acting Methuselah could use both effects (and this would be a REVERSAL of LSJ 20071015 ).
And of course, once Mirror Walk "end the action" effect has been triggered and resolved, Methuselahs cannot play any other action modifiers or reactions anymore.
I'd like to thank everyone for this interesting discussion.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director