Correct time to use Heidelberg Castle, Germany for non acting player

When non acting player get impulse for Heidelberg Castle, Germany? I will give scenario from practice: A take action,B block( B have any reteiner who give him intercept),combat end. A can play any unlock efect. Can B get impulse now to move reteiner on another vampire,or him need to wait impulse same as impulse for Enkil Cog where B need wait to acting player finish all his actions? Heidelberg Castle, Germany Unique location. Lock to move blood, equipment and/or retainers between any two ready vampires you control. Cannot be used during an action.

You can use it after the resolution of an action. (Check the rulings collected in the Codex of the Damned of reference: codex-of-the-damned.org/en/card-search.html?card=Heidelberg+Castle%2C+Germany) National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

Dear all, Due to "the sequencing explaination" of the new rulebook, I am not sure that "You can use it after the resolution of an action.". I would say you can use it when the active player give the impulse to other players like it is necessary to use Enkil Cog for instance. Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

> Rémi wrote: > Dear all, > > Due to "the sequencing explaination" of the new rulebook, I am not sure that "You can use it after the resolution of an action.". > I would say you can use it when the active player give the impulse to other players like it is necessary to use Enkil Cog for instance. > > Regards, > Rémi. > Enkil Cog is an action and is sequenced with other actions. Heidelberg is a generic effect and is sequenced with every other generic effects usable in a specific windows. When an action is finished, there is a phase before an other action can begin and in this phase everybody has the opportunity to play generic effects (heidelberg, barrens, Alexandra special etc...) These effects must be ordered using the sequencing rules inside this phase so active player as many effect he wants and then other players clockwise etc... Note that as far as I know, this term "generic effect" and this phase "between 2 actions" is not precisely defined in any occurence of the rulebook but it still works like that...

> When an action is finished, there is a phase before an other action can begin and in this phase everybody has the opportunity to play generic effects (heidelberg, barrens, Alexandra special etc...) > No, I do not think this is the case. Impulse goes around during the action, after it resolves. This is where you can play for example Cat's Guidance or use Dreams of the Sphinx or The Barrens. But this is still during the action, or you would not be able to use a reaction. So you cannot use Heidelberg because card text forbids it. If you are the acting Methuselah, you get the impulse after action and you can either use Heidelberg or begin another action, but the impulse does not go around the table between actions, or you could use Enkil Cog between two actions. The Enkil Cog effect and Heidelberg effect are both effects from cards in play that cannot be used during an action: the first because it declares an action, the second because card text forbids it. There is no way the impulse works differently in my opinion. > > Note that as far as I know, this term "generic effect" and this phase "between 2 actions" is not precisely defined in any occurence of the rulebook but it still works like that... > I don't think it does. I think we've been playing it wrong the whole time TLDR; I would have said you have to wait for the end of the acting Methuselah's minion phase to use Heidelberg's effect (unless it is your minion phase of course). APPENDIX - Wait, Timo is right I did some research and Timo has it right (well, no surprise there ): historically there was an "in-between actions" window, at least if you refer to this LSJ post . The question is: is this still a thing? Or did it disappear with the new rulebook? The new rulebook is very clear and streamlined, and even manages to explain Enkil Cog timing with no external ruling required ("At every stage, the acting Methuselah always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, they may play another and another." and "Each action must be resolved (successful or blocked) before another action can be performed."). I think it should be kept that way: this "in-between-actions-where-you-cannot-declare-an-action" window is clumsy at best. I would add that this window looks unmanageable in competitive play. You will either have to ask your opponent to pass (pointing out they can use Heidelberg and slowing the game), or accept that he is within his rights to ask for a rollback if you declare a rush or a bleed and he needs the blood. I feel we need a new ruling, one way or another.

> Hakuron wrote: > You can use it after the resolution of an action. > (Check the rulings collected in the Codex of the Damned of reference: codex-of-the-damned.org/en/card-search.html?card=Heidelberg+Castle%2C+Germany) > Please point out the ruling you're referring to, because I do not see it there ☺︎ The ruling there specifically states: > > Cannot be used before damage is inflicted after action resolution (eg. Force of will, Daring the Dawn): this is still during the action. [ANK 20171124] >

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> APPENDIX - Wait, Timo is right > I did some research and Timo has it right (well, no surprise there > > ): historically there was an "in-between actions" window, at least if you refer to this LSJ post . The question is: is this still a thing? Or did it disappear with the new rulebook? > > The new rulebook is very clear and streamlined, and even manages to explain Enkil Cog timing with no external ruling required ("At every stage, the acting Methuselah always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, they may play another and another." and "Each action must be resolved (successful or blocked) before another action can be performed."). I think it should be kept that way: this "in-between-actions-where-you-cannot-declare-an-action" window is clumsy at best. > > I feel we need a new ruling way, one way or another. > Well, my opinion is that ruling it that you cannot use heidelberg between 2 actions would be a huge nerf to that card when used defensively. It would mean that you cannot transfer your tower of raven spies to another minion after a succesfull block (and it has been used like that since for ever !). (codex-of-the-damned.org/en/deck-search.html?cards=Raven+Spy%7CHeidelberg+Castle%2C+Germany&id=2k4ahrimanes gives 36 results in the TWDA)

> Timo wrote: > > > I feel we need a new ruling way, one way or another. > > > Well, my opinion is that ruling it that you cannot use heidelberg between 2 actions would be a huge nerf to that card when used defensively. > I agree, I have changed my vision of this card since the new rulebook arrived. Useless comment: I would be happy to get that card back Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

> Well, my opinion is that ruling it that you cannot use heidelberg between 2 actions would be a huge nerf to that card when used defensively. > I cannot argue with that, it would definitely be a nerf. I still think that the current rules are elegant and having to distinguish declaring an action from playing a card or using an effect just to allow this specific use of one card is over-complicated. And I maintain that this is broken for competitive play. In my view it's a point in favour of the nerf.

> lip wrote: > The new rulebook is very clear and streamlined, and even manages to explain Enkil Cog timing with no external ruling required ("At every stage, the acting Methuselah always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, they may play another and another." and "Each action must be resolved (successful or blocked) before another action can be performed."). I think it should be kept that way: this "in-between-actions-where-you-cannot-declare-an-action" window is clumsy at best. > Are you arguing that using Heidelberg, or all the other things that can happen between actions, is somewhow not an effect as covered by the rulebook? Also, how does this give the acting Methuselah the ability to block other Methuselahs from using such effects? The rulebook merely states that the acting Methuselah gets the first bite at using them, and then the opportunity moves to the others. Not playing a card before range doesn't stop the opponent playing Torn Signpost, for example, even though the new rulebook doesn't discuss this in any depth. > > lip wrote: > I would add that this window looks unmanageable in competitive play. You will either have to ask your opponent to pass (pointing out they can use Heidelberg and slowing the game), or accept that he is within his rights to ask for a rollback if you declare a rush or a bleed and he needs the blood. > VtES is already a game with lots of cases where careful, correct sequencing and quick play are at odds with each other (Direct Intervention & Sudden Reversal being the major reasons for that). This case hardly makes that worse. -- National Coordinator South Africa

> drnlmza wrote: > Are you arguing that using Heidelberg, or all the other things that can happen between actions, is somewhow not an effect as covered by the rulebook? > No, I probably was not clear. I am arguing that there is no window between the end of an action and the beginning of the next: the action ends with everybody passing on the impulse. Impulse goes back on the acting Methuselah. He either starts a new action or passes on his minion phase. > > drnlmza wrote: > Also, how does this give the acting Methuselah the ability to block other Methuselahs from using such effects? The rulebook merely states that the acting Methuselah gets the first bite at using them, and then the opportunity moves to the others. > Absolutely. My point is exactly that: the acting Methuselah choose first. If he choses to begin an action, then passes the impulse, you can use any effect you like. But not Heidelberg because it cannot be used during an action. And not Enkil Cog because an action is underway already.

Actually, what you say is that effect that cannot be used during an action (eg Heidelberg) could not be used during the minion phase because every moment of the minion phase is an action. I find this very counter intuitive and not in line with the game as it is played. We allready have a lot of micro phase and if you want to streamline the game, I am not sure I would begin with the "between 2 actions phase" ^^ (pre-range prevent during pre-range handling damage during pre-range chosing range pre-strike choosing strike resolve strike prevent handling damage additional strike choosing strike resolve strike prevent handling damage (while having additional then repeat ^^) press step end of round end of combat) I am pretty sure that just having 2 kind of moments during a minion phase being "during an action" and "not during an action" with both having impulse to be handled is not necessarily a problem ^^

> Hakuron wrote: > You can use it after the resolution of an action. > (Check the rulings collected in the Codex of the Damned of reference: codex-of-the-damned.org/en/card-search.html?card=Heidelberg+Castle%2C+Germany) > Correct. There is a window after action resolution to use effects that are "not usable during an action". Sequencing during that window follows the impulse rule as usual. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Does this in-between actions window exist only after an action? Can Enkil Cog or Madness Network be used in this in-between actions window? Does this in-between action window mean that the player whose turn it is need to pass the impulse twice to move to the influence phase (i.e. A passes after an action the "in-between action window" impulse where all other also pass and then A passes that no more actions are to be taken where all others also pass)? Can HC be used as the first thing done in a minion phase? Can HC be used as the only thing done in a minion phase? Can HC be used as the last thing done in a minion phase? Can HC be used if the player whose turn it is does nothing and passes the impulse to move to the influence phase? Can HC be used in phases other than the minion phase (i.e. master, influence, and discard phase)? Can one wait to decide to use HC till after the player whose turn it is has passed impulse declaring no more actions to be taken?

> inm8 wrote: > Does this in-between actions window exist only after an action? > No. > inm8 wrote: > Can Enkil Cog or Madness Network be used in this in-between actions window? > No. Those are about performing an action. > inm8 wrote: > Does this in-between action window mean that the player whose turn it is need to pass the impulse twice to move to the influence phase (i.e. A passes after an action the "in-between action window" impulse where all other also pass and then A passes that no more actions are to be taken where all others also pass)? > A has to give the opportunity (=> impulse) to other players to use their Heidelberg Castle, yes. > inm8 wrote: > Can HC be used as the first thing done in a minion phase? > Yes. > inm8 wrote: > Can HC be used as the only thing done in a minion phase? > Yes. > inm8 wrote: > Can HC be used as the last thing done in a minion phase? > Yes. > inm8 wrote: > Can HC be used if the player whose turn it is does nothing and passes the impulse to move to the influence phase? > Used by who? If the active player passes, it means he doesn't use the HC they have (unless they get back the impulse during the minion phase). But if another player controls the HC, he must be allowed to use it. > inm8 wrote: > Can HC be used in phases other than the minion phase (i.e. master, influence, and discard phase)? > Yes. > inm8 wrote: > Can one wait to decide to use HC till after the player whose turn it is has passed impulse declaring no more actions to be taken? > Yes, as long as there's no ongoing action. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > Can Enkil Cog or Madness Network be used in this in-between actions window? > > > No. Those are about performing an action. > Can only "in-between actions" effects be used in this window? Are HC and Journal of Hrorsh currently the only 2 cards with "in-between actions" effects in the game? > Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > Does this in-between action window mean that the player whose turn it is need to pass the impulse twice to move to the influence phase (i.e. A passes after an action the "in-between action window" impulse where all other also pass and then A passes that no more actions are to be taken where all others also pass)? > > > A has to give the opportunity (=> impulse) to other players to use their Heidelberg Castle, yes. > My question might not have been so clear, sorry. Trying again below; The question is, when player A has just taken his "last" action, whether A would need to first pass the impulse for the "in-between action" window around the table (where all pass and the impulse returns to A) and then A needs to pass the impulse for "action taking" around the table (where again no one does anything) to be able to move to the next stage i.e move to the influence phase, effectively only after having passed the impulse "twice" (once for the "in-between actions" window and once for the "action taking" window) without doing anything? In the above example if player C did use HC and then the impulse returns to A, does A have to again pass the impulse around the table for the "in-between actions" window (enabling, B and C a new opportunity, and D and E their first opportunity to use the "in-between actions" window) before A can pass the impulse for the "action taking" window (where no one does anything) to move to the influence phase? > Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > Can HC be used if the player whose turn it is does nothing and passes the impulse to move to the influence phase? > > > Used by who? If the active player passes, it means he doesn't use the HC they have (unless they get back the impulse during the minion phase). But if another player controls the HC, he must be allowed to use it. > Sorry again if the question wasn´t clear. When a player does nothing in his minion phase does he first need to pass the impulse for the "in-between actions" window and then after it has gone around the table (with no one doing anything) then pass the impulse for the "action taking" window to move to the influence phase? The above insinuates that the "in-between actions" window is the very first window in the minion phase, is this correct? > Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > Can HC be used in phases other than the minion phase (i.e. master, influence, and discard phase)? > > > Yes. > When do the players other than the player whose turn it is get the impulse to be able to use HC? I was under the impression that the only time in the above-mentioned phases that the impulse is passed around was when the player whose turn it is actually plays a card, enabling only the "as it is played" effects to be played, do I have this wrong? > Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > Can HC be used as the last thing done in a minion phase? > > > Yes > > Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > Can one wait to decide to use HC till after the player whose turn it is has passed impulse declaring no more actions to be taken? > > > Yes, as long as there's no ongoing action. > Don´t know if my question wasn´t clear or not but wouldn´t the above two be a reversal of this ruling [LSJ 20090209] ? Doesn´t a minion phase have to end with impulse being passed around without any actions being taken and cannot end at the end of passing the impulse for the "in between actions" window?

> inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > Can Enkil Cog or Madness Network be used in this in-between actions window? > > > > > No. Those are about performing an action. > > > Can only "in-between actions" effects be used in this window? > No, you could use The Barrens for instance. > inm8 wrote: > Are HC and Journal of Hrorsh currently the only 2 cards with "in-between actions" effects in the game? > It's not a rule question. > inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > Does this in-between action window mean that the player whose turn it is need to pass the impulse twice to move to the influence phase (i.e. A passes after an action the "in-between action window" impulse where all other also pass and then A passes that no more actions are to be taken where all others also pass)? > > > > > > > > A has to give the opportunity (=> impulse) to other players to use their Heidelberg Castle, yes. > > > My question might not have been so clear, sorry. Trying again below; > > The question is, when player A has just taken his "last" action, whether A would need to first pass the impulse for the "in-between action" window around the table (where all pass and the impulse returns to A) and then A needs to pass the impulse for "action taking" around the table (where again no one does anything) to be able to move to the next stage i.e move to the influence phase, effectively only after having passed the impulse "twice" (once for the "in-between actions" window and once for the "action taking" window) without doing anything? > Indeed. > inm8 wrote: > In the above example if player C did use HC and then the impulse returns to A, does A have to again pass the impulse around the table for the "in-between actions" window (enabling, B and C a new opportunity, and D and E their first opportunity to use the "in-between actions" window) before A can pass the impulse for the "action taking" window (where no one does anything) to move to the influence phase? > That's how the impulse work, yes. > inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > Can HC be used if the player whose turn it is does nothing and passes the impulse to move to the influence phase? > > > > > Used by who? If the active player passes, it means he doesn't use the HC they have (unless they get back the impulse during the minion phase). But if another player controls the HC, he must be allowed to use it. > > > Sorry again if the question wasn´t clear. > > When a player does nothing in his minion phase does he first need to pass the impulse for the "in-between actions" window and then after it has gone around the table (with no one doing anything) then pass the impulse for the "action taking" window to move to the influence phase? > Yes. It's the same question as above. > inm8 wrote: > The above insinuates that the "in-between actions" window is the very first window in the minion phase, is this correct? > Yes. A can use the HC before any action during their minion phase. > inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > Can HC be used in phases other than the minion phase (i.e. master, influence, and discard phase)? > > > > > Yes. > > > When do the players other than the player whose turn it is get the impulse to be able to use HC? > When they get the impulse. HC has no restriction during other phases, since there are no actions during those phases. > inm8 wrote: > I was under the impression that the only time in the above-mentioned phases that the impulse is passed around was when the player whose turn it is actually plays a card, enabling only the "as it is played" effects to be played, do I have this wrong? > Indeed, you have it wrong. Impulse passes around each time A declines to use it (for whatever reason). For instance, another player can use a burn option during A's unlock phase, even if A doesn't do anything. Or Giotto Verducci's controller can discard a card during the discard phase of another player even if that player doesn't discard any card. > inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > Can HC be used as the last thing done in a minion phase? > > > > > Yes > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > Can one wait to decide to use HC till after the player whose turn it is has passed impulse declaring no more actions to be taken? > > > > > Yes, as long as there's no ongoing action. > > > Don´t know if my question wasn´t clear or not but wouldn´t the above two be a reversal of this ruling [LSJ 20090209] ? > > Doesn´t a minion phase have to end with impulse being passed around without any actions being taken and cannot end at the end of passing the impulse for the "in between actions" window? > Using the impulse or not using it to declare an action doesn't change anything: HC can be used after someone has declared an action, or everyone has declined declaring an action. Also, A can use their HC after their last action. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

TLDR: The active Methuselah ("A") can use the Heidelberg Castle before any of their actions, and after any of their actions. Each time A could use the Heidelberg Castle, so do the other players (following the sequencing order). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > Can one wait to decide to use HC till after the player whose turn it is has passed impulse declaring no more actions to be taken? > > > > > Yes, as long as there's no ongoing action. > > > Don´t know if my question wasn´t clear or not but wouldn´t the above two be a reversal of this ruling [LSJ 20090209] ? > I think this question about LSJ ruling has not been answered. And no, the above ruling is not reversed (if I understand correctly). What actually happen in the scenario is that : - A have the impulse for "not during an action effects". - A pass - everyone else pass - A now have the opportunity to take an action ans pass - B pass - C now has the impulse to take an action but not to use HC and pass the impulse for playing an action - everyone else pass - no action have been taken since the impulse for "not during an action effects" have gone around the table so end of minion phase and beginning of influence phase

The sequence is: -- START OF THE MINION PHASE -- a) HC window (following the sequencing rule) => if everybody passes, go to b), otherwise go back to a) b) ACTION window (following the sequencing rule) => if everybody passes, go to END OF THE MINION PHASE, otherwise go back to a) -- END OF THE MINION PHASE -- (a and b always in that order). > Timo wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > > Can one wait to decide to use HC till after the player whose turn it is has passed impulse declaring no more actions to be taken? > > > > > > > Yes, as long as there's no ongoing action. > > > > > Don´t know if my question wasn´t clear or not but wouldn´t the above two be a reversal of this ruling [LSJ 20090209] ? > > > I think this question about LSJ ruling has not been answered. > > And no, the above ruling is not reversed (if I understand correctly). > > What actually happen in the scenario is that : > - A have the impulse for "not during an action effects". > - A pass > - everyone else pass > - A now have the opportunity to take an action ans pass > - B pass > - C now has the impulse to take an action but not to use HC and pass the impulse for playing an action > - everyone else pass > - no action have been taken since the impulse for "not during an action effects" have gone around the table so end of minion phase and beginning of influence phase > Correct. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > The sequence is: > > -- START OF THE MINION PHASE -- > a) HC window (following the sequencing rule) => if everybody passes, go to b), otherwise go back to a) > b) ACTION window (following the sequencing rule) => if everybody passes, go to END OF THE MINION PHASE, otherwise go back to a) > -- END OF THE MINION PHASE -- > > (a and b always in that order). > I have been thinking about this for a bit and see it as being problematic for two reasons; 1) it makes the process different from all other phases (i think) by creating a pre-requisite step to the main activity of the phase 2) it deviates from the idea that the active player at all times is the one with the priority advantage regardless of if they control non-action effects in play or not. Below is my attempt to write it down as to what to me would make more sense (hopefully I haven´t gotten anything wrong). -- START OF THE MINION PHASE -- 1) The active player may play effects; => if the active player passes, go to 2 a) if it is an action - non-active players (following the sequencing and eligible blockers rule) can play reactions and non-action effects (Barrens, Dreams, etc.) that are not restricted to be used during an action b) if it is a non-action - non-active players (following the sequencing rule) can play non-action effects (HC, Barrens, etc.) 2) The non-active players (following the sequencing rule) may play effects; => if everybody passes, go to END OF THE MINION PHASE a) if it is a non-action - play non-action effects (HC, Barrens, etc.) => after a single effect is played go back to 1 b) if it is an action - the player becomes temporarily the active player for the duration of that action and the non-active players (following the sequencing and eligible blockers rule) can play reactions and non-action effects (Barrens, Dreams, etc.) that are not restricted to be used during an action. => after resolving the action go back to 1 ** every time a non-active player plays an effect the impulse is returned to the active player ** -- END OF THE MINION PHASE --

Huh... What about trying to not clog things that are not overly complicated in a game with already too much overly complicated stuff. The TLDR of Ankha has the big avantage of being simple ! Please do not try to complicate it... And don't forget that what you propose would be kind of meaningless because barrens, HC etc could always be used in the master phase and so before the first action of the turn...

> Timo wrote: > Huh... > > What about trying to not clog things that are not overly complicated in a game with already too much overly complicated stuff. > Not my intention at all. > Timo wrote: > The TLDR of Ankha has the big avantage of being simple ! Please do not try to complicate it... > The existence of this "between actions" window aka step a) that Ankha provided is new to me and even though I find the provided sequence elegant is what got me questioning....as I find it to be undefined (isn't in the rules nor in the card text) and seems to exist only because of rulings. I might be wrong (probably, which is fine) and it has always worked like described, that all players first get to use all their Barrens, Dream, HC, etc. that they want before the active player gets to make his first action....to me it just seems to take away from the active player's advantage of being the active player, contrary to how I understand it to work in all other phases. For example during the master phase the active player with 3 MPAs and Dreams in play gets to do all 3 and use the Dreams (in any order) before passing impulse to others so they then can use their Barrens, HC, etc. and don't get to use it before the active player is done and passes the impulse. > Timo wrote: > And don't forget that what you propose would be kind of meaningless because barrens, HC, etc could always be used in the master phase and so before the first action of the turn... > You are absolutely right that they can be played at the end (or when the impulse is given) in a previous phase but that isn´t the point of my post, it isn´t to try to change whether those cards can be played or not but was in regards to when and the order of things. My understanding currently is that the window "between actions" seems to have come to be as part of the errata done to HC, why i don´t understand, because the change it got was an explicit limitation "cannot be used during an action".