Hello,
I would like to know if its possible to do the following:
1 - announce action (like KRC)
2 - tap creepshow cassino for stealth
3 - tap house of sorrow to untap cassino
4 - tap creepshow cassino again for stealth
The question popped in a discussion in the local playgroup because some people argued that once the action was 'announced' you could not play the cassino effect again, which I don't think that is particularly convincing because as far as I know I can play creepshow, seduction and any other modifiers that say 'only usable as an action is announced' in the same action.
To summarize: Is there a window for 'when the action is annouced' that ends at an arbitraty point or can I keep playing cards until I'm done and them the action is effectively 'announced' ?
Thanks in advance!Name: Creepshow Casino
[FN:R2, Third:PB, SP:LB1, V5:PTo1]
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 2 pool
Unique location.
Lock as a vampire you control announces an undirected action to give that vampire +1 stealth, even if stealth is not yet needed.
Artist: William O'Connor
Name: House of Sorrow
[Promo-20081119]
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master: unique location.
Lock to unlock any card you control that is not a minion. If you do so, neither that card nor this location unlock as normal on your next unlock phase.
Artist: Andrew Trabbold
Lasombra Archbishop of São José, SC, Brazil.
The way sequencing works, you cannot use things during the as announced window except wakes and cards/effects that are to be used in that window. So after locking the Creepshow Casino, you'd have to pass the impulse and everyone else has to pass as well before you can use the House of Sorrow. At that point, the opportunity to use the Casino has passed.
Prince of Bonn, Germany
I don't think this is about sequencing, because as acting methuselah you can play as many "as announced" effects you want.
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/76645-actions-combat-for-beginners#87384
I see no problem using House of Sorrow to unlock and have an additional stealth from Creepshow Casino. The only restriction that comes to mind is HoS is not an "as the action is announced" effect, but these would mean I cannot lock The Barrens to discard and try to get a Seduction either.
The question is: Would House of Sorrow (or Barrens btw) end the "as the action is announced" window?
Flip a coin. Thank you.
House of Sorrow and barrens are generic effect with no specific timing.
The only window when they couldn't be used would be "as a card is played" which happens even before replacing and is used for canceling effects.
So I don't see any good reason why HoS couldn't be used to use creepshow casino twice for thé same action.
Well, I agree HoS can unlock Creepshow Casino in that window. I'm not sure, though, that Creepshow Casino can be used twice there. See [LSJ 20081229] . Why would Creepshow Casino be treated differently than Tower of London? Is "as a vampire you control announces an undirected action" not comparable to "after resolution of a successful action"?
Also, Thiago has a point there. Playing a Conditioning closes the "as announced" window (you cannot play Seduction after it) because it is not an "as the action is announced announced" modifier. As House of Sorrow is also not such an effect (does not have the "as the action is announced" text) I would understand that using it closes the window in the same way. Basically, once you used it, too late for "as the action is announced" effects... But that means you cannot use a Dreams or a Barrens to draw a Seduction after you play the action? You have to do it before you announce?
> lip wrote:
> Well, I agree HoS can unlock Creepshow Casino in that window. I'm not sure, though, that Creepshow Casino can be used twice there. See [LSJ 20081229] . Why would Creepshow Casino be treated differently than Tower of London? Is "as a vampire you control announces an undirected action" not comparable to "after resolution of a successful action"?
>
After resolution of a succesfull action is a trigger.
The "as the action is announced" is a phase of the game.
So I would still say that Creepshow Casino can be used twice.
>
> Also, Thiago has a point there. Playing a Conditioning closes the "as announced" window (you cannot play Seduction after it) because it is not an "as the action is announced announced" modifier. As House of Sorrow is also not such an effect (does not have the "as the action is announced" text) I would understand that using it closes the window in the same way. Basically, once you used it, too late for "as the action is announced" effects... But that means you cannot use a Dreams or a Barrens to draw a Seduction after you play the action? You have to do it before you announce?
>
And I don't think Conditionning close any windows.
It is just that conditioning can't be played in that specific windows and you have to close it before playing a conditioning.
I agree with you Timo. I would have ruled it that way, but I guess an RD confirmation here would be neat.
By the way, would you be available to join the judges team for the Atlantic Cup by any chance? Even just for a round or two? We're recruiting
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/77581-action-modifiers-played-at-beginning-and-end-of-an-action#94652
You cannot play Seduction after Conditioning. The same thing is here - you cannot play cards (and use effects) that don't have to be played during the "as announced" in said window.
Edit: possibly I misunderstood what was said last, but the reference might be useful anyway.
Prince of Bonn, Germany
These are very interesting questions that need answering other questions first:
A.1. Can I play Conditioning during the “as the action is announced” step?
A.2. Can I use Barrens during the “as the action is announced” step?
A.3. Can I use House of Sorrow during the “as the action is announced” step?
A.4. Can Francisco Domingo de Polonia burn 1 blood to get +1 bleed during the “as the action is announced” step of a bleed action?
I couldn't find an explicit rule excerpt to answer of all these questions. (One of) the original ruling that was made about Conditioning is based on the previous version of the rulebook:
6.2. Taking an Action
Any ready untapped minion you control can take an action. The procedure for resolving an action is described in the following sections. Note that action modifiers and reaction cards can be played at any time in this process as appropriate, subject to the restrictions on adding stealth and intercept listed below and the restrictions against the same minion playing the same action modifier or reaction card more than once (see Minion Cards, sec. 1.6.3), and following the same sequencing strictures of all effects (see Sequencing, sec. 1.6.1.6).
The “as appropriate” is vague but the ruling is based on it. This part has disappeared of the new rulebook, so the following rule should be added:
During the “as the action is announced” step, the only action modifiers cards and reaction cards that can be played are those that are only usable during that step (as well as wake cards).
You can also use other effects such as locking The Barrens to discard a card, or locking the House of Sorrow to unlock another card, or burning 1 blood with Francisco Domingo de Polonia to give him +1 bleed.
Indeed, those three effects cannot be put in two categories, one that would be “appropriate” for the “as the action is announced” step, and the other not (see also the long discussion about which effects and cards are usable during the damage prevention step once Outside the Hourglass is played at superior: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/76197-still-confused-about-multiple-outside-the-hourglasses#83682 )
So:
A.1: no (since it's an action modifier card)
A.2: yes
A.3: yes
A.4: yes (it must be a bleed action since other rules prevent you from adding bleed to a non-bleed action).
Now, we must answer these questions:
B.1. Is “as an undirected action is announced” a trigger regarding the use of Creepshow Casino?
B.2. Is “as action is announced” a trigger?
B.3. Can Creepshow Casino be used twice on the same action (provided it can be unlocked)?
B.4. Can Tower of London be used twice on the same action (provided it can be unlocked)?
There is a ruling about Tower of London preventing it from being used twice after action resolution even if it is unlocked with a House of Sorrow.
The ruling is easier to understand if you drop the “lock to” part of Creepshow Casino and Tower of London. Could they be used twice? No, as the “as an action is announced” and “after resolution” steps are both steps and triggers. Having a condition such as “the action must be undirected” or “the action must require Necromancy” does not change anything.
Since it's a trigger, any effect depending on it can only be used once: Creepshow Casino can only be used once per action, as well as Tower of London (as well as Andre Leroux's ability).
This implies:
B.1: yes
B.2: yes
B.3: no
B.4. no
So:
> heltonmatiazi wrote:
> I would like to know if its possible to do the following:
> 1 - announce action (like KRC)
> 2 - tap creepshow cassino for stealth
> 3 - tap house of sorrow to untap cassino
> 4 - tap creepshow cassino again for stealth
>
No, see B.3.
> heltonmatiazi wrote:
> The question popped in a discussion in the local playgroup because some people argued that once the action was 'announced' you could not play the cassino effect again, which I don't think that is particularly convincing because as far as I know I can play creepshow, seduction and any other modifiers that say 'only usable as an action is announced' in the same action.
>
> To summarize: Is there a window for 'when the action is annouced' that ends at an arbitraty point or can I keep playing cards until I'm done and them the action is effectively 'announced' ?
>
You can play action modifier cards, reaction cards, or use effects during that step until you are done and pass the impulse.
However, this is not what prevents you from using twice the Creepshow Casino (see B.3.)
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Thank you for the ruling and the detailed explanation. However, I still find this weird, considering the following things:
a) For the "as a card is played" window, these things behave quite differently. Could you give a reasoning to this difference?
b) In most cases, playing a card and using a card already in play are considered to be the same things (regarding impulse and other restrictions). However, here they are different, as you can use effects but cannot play cards. Could you also give a reasoning to this difference?
Prince of Bonn, Germany
Also, apparently "Lock as a vampire you control announces..." doesn't fall in the category of “During X, do Y” (so that doesn't prevent the second usage of Creepshow Cassino during the same action), right?
But "triggered abilities still cannot be used multiple times in the window following the single trigger." prevents you from using Creepshow Cassino twice during the same action.
Finnish Politics!
> Yomyael wrote:
> Thank you for the ruling and the detailed explanation. However, I still find this weird, considering the following things:
>
> a) For the "as a card is played" window, these things behave quite differently. Could you give a reasoning to this difference?
>
The list of cancellation effects is kept very small on purpose.
> Yomyael wrote:
> b) In most cases, playing a card and using a card already in play are considered to be the same things (regarding impulse and other restrictions). However, here they are different, as you can use effects but cannot play cards. Could you also give a reasoning to this difference?
>
The timing for playing cards is usually very specific, either explicitly ("only usable during...") or implicitly (e.g., master cards, stealth cards).
The timing for using effects (e.g., the Barrens) can be noticeably broader by design.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director