Bleeds

Hello, i have 2 questions about bleed actions 1) if A is bleeding B, and B has played reaction to reduce this bleed, can A play action modifier to increase it after that? And if yes, can B try to bounce this bleed after A played action modifier that increase bleed? 2) According to rulebook in Bleed section "If the action succeeds, the target Methuselah burns an amount of pool equal to the bleed amount. By default, all vampires have a bleed amount of 1. If the action succeeds and the bleed amount is 1 or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it, if any." If bleed form Flurry of Action is unblocked but reduced to 0 following are thruth: - I can play Freak Drive on inferior to unlock because action is successful? Freak Drive Action modifier Only usable after action resolution.[f] Only usable if the action was successful. Unlock this vampire.[F] Only usable if the action was blocked. Unlock this vampire. - I cannot trigger Flurry of Action because despite of that action is successfull, bleed reduced to 0 isn't? Flurry of Action Action modifier[c] Ⓓ Bleed. If the bleed is successful, draw two cards (discard afterward).[C] Ⓓ Bleed. If the bleed is successful, this vampire unlocks. Thank You for Your help in advance

> Raven wrote: > Hello, > > i have 2 questions about bleed actions > > 1) if A is bleeding B, and B has played reaction to reduce this bleed, can A play action modifier to increase it after that? And if yes, can B try to bounce this bleed after A played action modifier that increase bleed? > Yes to all. > Raven wrote: > 2) According to rulebook in Bleed section > > "If the action succeeds, the target Methuselah burns an amount of pool equal to the bleed amount. By default, all vampires have a bleed amount of 1. If the action succeeds and the bleed amount is 1 or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it, if any." > > If bleed form Flurry of Action is unblocked but reduced to 0 following are thruth: > > - I can play Freak Drive on inferior to unlock because action is successful? > Yes. Even though the bleed itself was not successful, the bleed action was since it was not blocked. > Raven wrote: > - I cannot trigger Flurry of Action because despite of that action is successfull, bleed reduced to 0 isn't? > Correct. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Hi, As far as I know any action is divided into smaller parts, i.e. a. Bleed declaration. b. Modifiers (i.e. Seduction). c. Block attempts. d. Modifiers (i.e. increasing bleed). e. Bounces (i.e Deflection). f. Bleed reduction (i.e Ectasy). g. Modifiers (i.e. Spying Mission, Freak Drive). 1. Could anyone confirm if the steps above really exist and make the list above complete and set it in right order? 2. If the list above is correct (at least partially), is it possible to play bleed modifiers increasing bleed after point (d.)? 3. Can we separate statements ("bleed successful" from "action successful")? I.e. bleed for 0 is unsuccessful but action was not blocked - is the action unsuccessful either (can we use i.e. inferior Freak Drive)? Thanks in advance for deeper clarifications.

It isn't as set into stone as you're trying to make it. So yes, after announcing the action there is a specific window where cards like seduction may be played. This window closes as soon as you play a card that you don't have to play at that time. All other action modifiers either require a specific trigger (like spying mission and freak drive) and can only be played after that condition has been met, or they don't, in which case they can be played at any time. So you can for example play a bleed increase modifier between b) and c), during c) or between e) and g). The same applies to reaction cards. There are some that have to be played as the action is announced, some can be played after a certain trigger is met (e.g. declining to block for a Deflection or similar things), or none at all in which case you can play them whenever the controller of the acting minion passes the opportunity to do so. There is one very grave error in your list: most bleed reduce cards (i.e. Ecstasy) do not require you to decline a block. You can play that at any time during the action. Until you started resolution of the action bleed increase can be played. When the action resolves, you can only play modifiers that specify things in the resolution, like Spying mission and Freak Drive. Resolution starts when all methuselahs decline to annuonce a block or decline to play a card. A succesfull bleed and a succesfull action are different things. An action that has reached resolution without being blocked is succesfull. If that action was a bleed action, the bleed itself is only succesfull when the amount is greater than 0. Whether the bleed is succesfull or not has no impact on whether the action is succesfull or not. Prince of Bonn, Germany

Thanks for the answer. In the begining I would like to remind you that I just try to let you understand the point of the problem the best I can and don't declare anything for sure. I don't say that there is no flexibility in the game, but I believe that there any rules which apply am I right? "So you can for example play a bleed increase modifier between b) and c), during c) or between e) and g)" Really? Even when bleed is not bounced after the (f.) I can increase bleed with an action modifier? Maybe you meant situation when bleed is bounced? There are two useful informations in your expose. The first that decreasing bleed can be done not only in a window and the answer regarding separating "bleed/action sucessful". If you want to give a decent and usefull answer, which doesn't leave gaps and understatement, split bleed action into windows or develop more specific method. Thanks in advance.

There is no phase or stack system in VTES. Instead there is a priority system. When ever some one plays a card, others have a window to react to it. So you can indeed play an action modifier to increase the bleed, after the target has indicated to not bouncing it, but they then have a new window to play cards (bounce, reduce). As long as all conditions specified on the cards apply. Prince of Joensuu, Finland

Ok, lets take some examples... 1. DEFLECTION EXAMPLE. a. Player A declares bleed. b. Player B declares: no block. c. Player A wants to play: Command of the Beast and Conditioning. - can player A play both bleed modifiers one after another or can play only one modifier and then needs to wait for player B response, i.e. for player B bouncing cards? - maybe when player B declares "no block" should ask what bleed modifiers player A wants to play, then decide if he wants to bounce it or not? 2. REDUCE BLEED EXAMPLE. - Player A declares bleed (i.e. Govern Unaligned). - Player B declares no block. - Player A declares he doesn't want to increase bleed amount. - Player B declares: no bounces. - Player A declares not to increase bleed amount. - Player B declares to reduce bleed with Ophidian Gaze and Ectasy. As I understood, player A is allowed to play bleed modifiers now yes? (i.e. Conditioning). And player B is allowed to bounce the bleed after playing these new bleed modifiers? In event when player B bounces the modified bleed, what amount of bleed is redirected to player C? (i.e. Govern + Conditioning, total amount 6 or, reduced by Ophidian Gaze and Ectasy total amount 3)?

1. A can play both if he wants to. You can also wait a bit in between playing those, but B can still deflect if he wants to even after the second modifier is played. 2. Yes, you can still increase the bleed after the reduces are played. And yes, it can still be bounced after that. Reduces also apply to the bounced bleed, so Govern + Conditioning would be a bleed of 3 with Ophidian Gaze and Ecstasy played to reduce it. You can even take this further. Lets say that in the second example, the player B decided to attempt to block the bleed, player A plays stealth, player B plays intercept, and A plays more stealth, at which point B declines the block, then plays the reduction cards, after which A plays Conditioning and B then bounces the bleed. Lets say player C then reduces the bleed too, with Ophidian Gaze of his own, and then chooses to bounce the bleed back to B, the B can now attempt to block the bleed (of 1, because it is reduced by 2x Ophidian Gaze and 1x Ecstasy) again, and still has the Intercept available on the minion he played it on earlier, as the action is still the same. So he might have drawn more intercept, and might now succeed in blocking the action. Prince of Joensuu, Finland

Maybe an explanation of the impulse will help. This is how priority to play a card in V:tES is handled. Whenever something happens, the active methuselah gains the impulse. This means that methuselah has the opportunity to play a card. The active methuselah is in general the methuselah whose turn it is, or the one who controlls the acting minion when you can act out of turn. When the active methuselah does something, like using an ability of a card in play or playing a card, that methuselah gets the impulse. So they can play the next card or use the next effect. If the active methuselah doesn't want to play a acrd anymore, the impulse is passed. In a directed action, first to the target, then clockwise around the table, until someone wants to use it to do something. If someone does something, the impulse immediately goes back to the active methuselah after that. If all pass the impulse, the window of opportunity to play a card has passed and the action moves on to the next step. So consider, in much detail, a bleed action of A against B. For some simplicity I will assume that if there are other players, they don't have an effect to use or play. It starts of with playing the action card. In the "as played" window, only cards that can cancel the action card (like direct intervention) can be played. A obviously doesn't want to do that, so the impulse is passed to B. Either B does something, giving the impulse back to A, or doesn't and the action card is played and moves on to the "as announced" window. This window will in principle be repeated after each played card, but I won't go into that detail when going along. In the as the action is announced window, cards that can only be played in that window can be played. A gets the first opportunity and plays a card. Then A can decide to play another card, or pass the impulse. If A passes, then B can decide to play a card or not. If B plays a card, A gets the opportunity to play a card again. If B does not play a card, both have passed and the window is over, so A cannot play another card in the "as the action is announced" window anymore. After that, A gets again the opportunity to play cards. When A passes the impulse to B, B can play cards or decide if a minion B controls wants to attempt a block, or decline blocks. Whatever B decides, A gets the impulse back again. At this point a decision has to be made by B, since B either has to play a card, block, or don't block. Every time an effect is used or a card is played, A gets the impulse back. So unless both players pass, A has always the opportunity to play a card, as long as it isn't restricted to a certain time window that hasn't happened. So A can in principle play as many cards after one another as A wants, but everytime B does something the next opportunity to do something goes to A. Note that declining to block is a choice, so B hasn't passed when deciding not to block. Therefore after that, A can still play cards. Also, if A doesn't want to play cards after that and passes the impulse back to B, B can again play cards. This is where Deflection and similar cards are played. If both players pass at some point consecutively, the resolution of the action happens. This is where it is checked if there is a block attempt with sufficient intercept to block the action, or not. If so, the action is blocked and goes to block resolution. If not, the action is not blocked and goes to action resolution This is where cards like Change of Target or Spying Mission are played. Also, this is the first time where it isn't possible anymore to play general Action Modifiers like Conditioning. After resolution then cards like Freak Drive can be played if the conditions are met, according to the same priority principle as before. I hope this wall of text helps and that I didn't make any mistakes while writing it^^ Prince of Bonn, Germany

Thanks for help, now I'll be more aware what's going on the table .

> Khormag wrote: > 1. > > A can play both if he wants to. You can also wait a bit in between playing those, but B can still deflect if he wants to even after the second modifier is played. > If A waits a bit between playing the second card, it's more because A is still thinking but hasn't decided to play a card or to pass yet. So A plays cards until they pass. Then B can play one card. But if A plays one card and passes the impulse, then they cannot play another card if B does not play any effect. My advice is: if A plays Conditioning, B would better ask A if they have something else to play to make sure A passes the impulse (or not), rather than rushing playing a Deflection. In any case, the summary by Yomyael is thorough. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Just for nitpicking purpose: You could replace most "play a card" by "use an effect". Burning a blood with Anu is handled in the same way (impulse wise) than playing a command of the beast. And locking a Creepshow Casino is handled in the same way (impulse wise again ^^) than playing a Seduction. Name: Anu Diptinatpa [HttB:U/A2] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Nagaraja Group: 6 Capacity: 7 Discipline: aus vic DOM NEC Independent: During {a bleed} action, Anu can burn 1 blood to give {the acting} minion +1 bleed. Scarce. Artist: Robin Chyo Name: Creepshow Casino [FN:R2, Third:PB, SP:LB1, V5:PTo1] Cardtype: Master Cost: 2 pool Unique location. Lock as a vampire you control announces an undirected action to give that vampire +1 stealth, even if stealth is not yet needed. Artist: William O'Connor