Hello, fellow methuselahs!
I have a couple of questions about this text:
If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her unlock phase. A Methuselah can choose to skip his or her entire turn. Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect.
What is confusing is the "during his or her unlock phase". On previous versions there was not a phase specified on the card, so we just avoided the unlock phase entirely if skipped, but now the players are arguing about simultaneous effects and the choice of the player to order them.
So, How can I confirm this is the first thing that happen on unlock phase?
If a player has 2 Vessels on a vampire with 2 blood, can he get this blood before paying the cost during his unlock phase to keep tje rest of his turn?
Do the minions unlock before the decision to skip, since occurs both on unlock phase?
Thank you!
Targino
Flip a coin. Thank you.
You choose to take your turn or not. If you do during your unlock phase, you must burn two pool. It's no different than burning pool for Anarch Revolts, etc. You can order your unlock effects as desired, but you cannot pass the impulse until the mandatory unlock effects are handled.
So, since unlocking your minions is also mandatory, a player could unlock all his minions before choosing to skip the rest of the turn,right?
Flip a coin. Thank you.
No. If you don't get a turn, you don't get an unlock phase, since you don't have a turn ☺︎
So, first you chose if you take a turn or not. The decision to skip your turn or not happens before the unlock phase.
If you do take a turn, then first you unlock - this is not an effect you can order, it happens before any other effects during the unlock phase.
Once you have unlocked, you resolve any effect that happen during the unlock phase. Mandatory effects must be resolved before you pass the impulse. Paying for the Tradition is such a mandatory effect. You can get blood from your Vessel before resolving it.
Other effects can happen before the unlock phase, for example returning a minion that was taken with Malkavian Dementia. An interesting question would be: If I chose to skip my turn, go I get to keep the minion I stole last turn with Malkavian Dementia ?
> lip wrote:
> No. If you don't get a turn, you don't get an unlock phase, since you don't have a turn ☺︎
>
The card text changed since Keepers of Tradition: "Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her unlock phase."
The whole point here is the phrasing indicating this decision happens at unlock phase, which implies your unlock phase started and will end if you don't pay 2 pool.
So, if we follow the "mandatory precedence" rule, untap your minions is also mandatory, thus the player could choose which one goes first.
But this doesn't sound right. I agree the turn would be entirely skipped, but card text states otherwise.
Flip a coin. Thank you.
The decision and the burning of the pool do not happen at the same time. You choose to take a turn or not before your turn starts. If you decide to take a turn, then you will have to burn 2 pool at a later point during your unlock phase, subject to the standard sequencing rules.
Boris is right.
> The whole point here is the phrasing indicating this decision happens at unlock phase, which implies your unlock phase started and will end if you don't pay 2 pool.
>
I do not think this is right. In my opinion the wording was changed to make it clear that the decision to take a turn or not does not happen at the same time than paying the blood. I think it was done to take into account historic rulings on the card that allowed you to use Vessel before paying for the First Tradition, if you decided to take the turn.
> lip wrote:
> Boris is right.
>
> > The whole point here is the phrasing indicating this decision happens at unlock phase, which implies your unlock phase started and will end if you don't pay 2 pool.
> >
> I do not think this is right. In my opinion the wording was changed to make it clear that the decision to take a turn or not does not happen at the same time than paying the blood. I think it was done to take into account historic rulings on the card that allowed you to use Vessel before paying for the First Tradition, if you decided to take the turn.
>
IIRC old version of 1st tradition asked you to pay in order to have a turn so it was an effect which happened even before the actual turn.
But the important part here is the current version of it and it has been correctly stated that you chose to take a turn or not before begining your turn and if you take your turn, you will have to pay 2 at any time during your unlock ordering your phase with the current sequencing rules in any order you want like you would do for an anarch revolt or a fame in torpor.
*** The below was miss interpreted and the card penalty hasn’t changed...for references see my last post in this topic. ***
As per the current text, the words "in cumulative penalties" are not there anymore since they were dropped with the Keepers of Tradition change of wording, one now must skip 3 turns or burn 6 pool.. . which means that the penalty isn´t paid by for ex. burning 4 pool and skipping 1 turn....in turn this means that if one has already for ex burnt 4 pool but is no longer in a position where 2 more pool can be burned one is force to start from scratch with skipping the 3 required turns, it also enables the controller to keep the card around for 5 full table turns making this card more powerful.
> Current card text says:
> Name: First Tradition: The Masquerade
> AKA: The First Tradition: The Masquerade
> [Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, CE:R, KoT:R]
> Cardtype: Political Action
> Requires a prince or justicar.
> If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her unlock phase. A Methuselah can choose to skip his or her entire turn. Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect.
> Artist: Pete Venters; Mike Danza
>
KoT
CE
> thiagotargino wrote:
>
> > lip wrote:
> > No. If you don't get a turn, you don't get an unlock phase, since you don't have a turn ☺︎
> >
> The card text changed since Keepers of Tradition: "Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her unlock phase."
>
Correct.
> lip wrote:
> No. If you don't get a turn, you don't get an unlock phase, since you don't have a turn ☺︎
>
> So, first you chose if you take a turn or not. The decision to skip your turn or not happens before the unlock phase.
>
> If you do take a turn, then first you unlock - this is not an effect you can order, it happens before any other effects during the unlock phase.
>
> Once you have unlocked, you resolve any effect that happen during the unlock phase. Mandatory effects must be resolved before you pass the impulse. Paying for the Tradition is such a mandatory effect. You can get blood from your Vessel before resolving it.
>
Correct.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Timo wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > it also enables the controller to keep the card around for 5 full table turns
> >
> It has always been the case.
>
You are right and I miss interpreted the “in cumulative penalties” meaning.
Ruling on it was given by LSJ as well
LSJ Ruling