Question : How does target vitals function with a strike that causes environmental damage, such as Necrosis? Does vitals trigger off the environmental damage?
> Necrosis
> Type Combat
>
> [pot] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
> [thn] Strike: hand strike at +2 damage.
> [THN] As [thn] above, and the opposing vampire takes 1 unpreventable environmental damage during the press step this round (only effective if this strike was made at close range).
>
> Rulings
> - Additional damage inherits all of the properties of the base damage. [TOM 19960225]
> - [THN] If the strike is dodged, environmental damage is not applied. [ANK 20200517]
>
> Target Vitals
> Type
> Combat
> Card Text
> Aim. Only usable as this minion chooses a strike. A minion can play only one aim each strike.
> If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, they take +2 damage from this strike, and they cannot press this round. They can discard two combat cards to cancel this card as it is played.
> Rulings
> - Is played during the Strike phase (6.4.3) even if you commit to a strike in the Determine Range phase (6.4.2) (eg. Thrown Gate). Cannot be played if the strike cannot be chosen anymore during the Strike phase (eg. Immortal Grapple). [LSJ 20080409]
> - The additional damage is the same type as the strike's damage. [RTR 19970630]
> - If it is canceled, any blood cost (eg. Terror Frenzy) has to be paid. [PIB 20121031]
> - Can be played on a dodge or a combat ends, but does not add damage in that case. [PIB 20130319]
>
Discussion on discord made me notice that if the unpreventable environmental part does not trigger target vitals, we have a contradiction.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
It works like Dagon's Call: Target Vitals increases only the damage that resolves with the strike, not the extra damage that is inflicted later.
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/QreZ7T6AXxo/m/xISb0iogFgkJ
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/ExPCpreuOhY/m/FHtR6J56mxIJ
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> It works like Dagon's Call: Target Vitals increases only the damage that resolves with the strike, not the extra damage that is inflicted later.
>
I'm not sure I understand this. Target vitals works with catatonic fear, which has damage that resolves outside of combat. That doesn't seem like "damage that resolves with the strike".
The main issue with this ruling (which I feared) is that dodge has been ruled to work against all the damage from Necrosis, implying that the environmental damage is dealt by the strike.
Excerpt from the 5th edition rulebook:
"Dodge: A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion
and their possessions from the effects of
the opposing strike."
(rulebook page 33)
Note that it says, "strike" not "strike card". Only effects of the strike can be dodged.
So if dodge works against necrosis environmental damage, that implies that the environmental damage is dealt by the strike. On the other hand, if it was not dealt by the strike, it shouldn't be possible do dodge it.
I would also point out that page 31 of the rulebook says that "environmental damage cannot be dodged."
blackchantry.com/Vampire%20The%20Eternal%20Struggle%20Fifth%20Edition%20rulebook%20ENG.pdf
One of the rulings has to be revised due to contradiction.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
I agree with Bloodartist that the ruling on Necrosis seems off in regards to that the dodge would prevent the environmental damage.
> Ankha wrote:
> Dodge "protects the dodging minion and his possessions (cards on him) from the effects of the opposing strike. " So you wouldn't take any damage from Necrosis.
>
In my opinion the above statement should exempt environmental damage to align to the general ruling regarding dodge and environmental damage handling. The dodge doesn´t mean that the strike doesn´t resolve like CE would mean and therefore the additional effect being triggered as part of the strike is logical to still apply.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> I'm not sure I understand this. Target vitals works with catatonic fear, which has damage that resolves outside of combat. That doesn't seem like "damage that resolves with the strike".
>
Catatonic Fear damage is not environmental damage and thereby dodge-able, it is like a variant of Anesthetic Touch but instead of First Strike it is a delayed hit as combat is ending.
> Bloodartist wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > It works like Dagon's Call: Target Vitals increases only the damage that resolves with the strike, not the extra damage that is inflicted later.
> >
> I'm not sure I understand this. Target vitals works with catatonic fear, which has damage that resolves outside of combat. That doesn't seem like "damage that resolves with the strike".
>
It is, though. In the same thread as the one I provided the link for, groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/QreZ7T6AXxo/m/H-fB8eHbkwUJ
> LSJ wrote:
>
> > wrote:
> > > Catatonic Fear damage is not "damage that resolves with the strike".
> >
> Yes, it is. Strike resolution of CF: End combat and apply damage after combat ends.
>
> Bloodartist wrote:
> The main issue with this ruling (which I feared) is that dodge has been ruled to work against all the damage from Necrosis, implying that the environmental damage is dealt by the strike.
>
The environmental damage is an effect of the strike. However, it is not inflicted by the striking minion when the strike resolves, that is why it is not increased by the Target Vitals.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> Excerpt from the 5th edition rulebook:
> "Dodge: A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion
> and their possessions from the effects of
> the opposing strike."
> (rulebook page 33)
>
> Note that it says, "strike" not "strike card". Only effects of the strike can be dodged.
>
Sure. Some strikes don't come from a card (eg., cardless hand strike), and dodges have to work against those;
> Bloodartist wrote:
> So if dodge works against necrosis environmental damage, that implies that the environmental damage is dealt by the strike.
>
Correct, but it does not mean that the damage is dealt by the minion. That is the case for the extra damage from Necrosis that is "environmental" (not dealt by the minion).
> Bloodartist wrote:
> I would also point out that page 31 of the rulebook says that "environmental damage cannot be dodged."
>
That is inaccurate indeed. The sentence was added to help new players understand that damage from a Carrion Crow cannot be dodged. Correct sentence should be something like "damage that are not inflicted by a strike (such as environmental damage from Carrion Crows or Murder of Crows) cannot be dodged." Thanks for pointing out the inaccuracy.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> One of the rulings has to be revised due to contradiction.
>
The contradiction is within this sentence in the rulebook "Note that environmental damage cannot be dodged, since dodging only protects from the opponent’s strike."
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> [...]
>
> The environmental damage is an effect of the strike. However, it is not inflicted by the striking minion when the strike resolves, that is why it is not increased by the Target Vitals.
>
> [...]
>
The problem I see here, is that Target Vitals does not have text to make it care whether the damage is inflicted by the minion or not. Target Vitals only says "If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion". Since the environmental damage is in fact caused by the strike, it should work with Target Vitals.
Prince of Bonn, Germany
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Bloodartist wrote:
> > So if dodge works against necrosis environmental damage, that implies that the environmental damage is dealt by the strike.
> >
> Correct, but it does not mean that the damage is dealt by the minion. That is the case for the extra damage from Necrosis that is "environmental" (not dealt by the minion).
>
Which is why I brought this whole thing up, since target vitals doesn't care about the minion OR the card. It only cares whether damage comes from the strike. Dodge uses literally same wording in the rulebook (it only uses the word 'strike').
So if dodge can avoid the environmental part, that implies that the environmental damage comes from the strike. If damage comes from the strike, it should trigger target vitals.
I still see only two logical options:
Either dodge works against the entire strike and target vitals triggers off the environmental part,
OR the environmental part cannot be dodged (since its not part of the strike).
The latter part would make sense considering there is a rule in the rulebook that says that environmental damage cannot be dodged. That would be less confusing, considering the rarity of environmental damage in the first place.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
I think you make good points, but I do not think we should change the way Dodge interacts with Necrosis. I would like to try and provide a way out that makes everybody happy.
Dodge avoids both minion and environmental damage from Necrosis. @Ankha's answer on that is clear to me and I don't think it deserves further debate.
When it comes to Target Vitals, although I agree with the result, I disagree with @Ankha's explanation:
>
> The environmental damage is an effect of the strike. However, it is not inflicted by the striking minion when the strike resolves, that is why it is not increased by the Target Vitals.
>
As you point out @Bloodartist, per card text, Target Vitals does not care if the damage is inflicted by the minion or not, just that it is inflicted by the strike. Still, Target Vitals card text does not suggest it can apply twice on a single strike. The wording "If any damage [...] is successfully inflicted" does not mean "each time damage is inflicted". For sure, this deserves a confirmation: not many strikes apply damage in two separate steps.
Let me submit another scenario to @Ankha as a new year's gift (maybe that should get a separate thread but, eh, we're here): Vampire A plays Necrosis with Target Vitals Vampire B plays Soak at strike resolution and prevents all damage Vampire B still takes 1 environmental damage during the press step Question: Does Vampire B take +2 environmental damage during the press step?
I will advocate that he does: the environmental damage comes from the strike, and Target Vitals does not care that it does not come from the minion.
But had B not prevented the initial damage, Target Vitals would have applied at strike resolution, and would not have applied for the environmental damage during the press step (it applies only once per strike).
What do you think?
Necrosis
Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
Strike: hand strike at +2 damage.
As above, and the opposing vampire takes 1 unpreventable environmental damage during the press step this round (only effective if this strike was made at close range).
Target Vitals
Aim. Only usable as this minion chooses a strike. A minion can play only one aim each strike.
If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, they take +2 damage from this strike, and they cannot press this round. They can discard two combat cards to cancel this card as it is played.
Soak
A vampire can play only one Soak each round.
Prevent 2 non-aggravated damage.
Prevent 4 non-aggravated damage.
Reading text Target Vitals,you play when chose strike,and you can play in every strike chose,so with blur and when you declare every strike you can play Target Vitals.
Necrosis+Target Vitals inflict 3+2 damage and is resolved during strike resolution.
1 Enviro damage happen during press step and I think Target Vitals have no efect anymore.
Target Vitals is resolved during strike resolution.
Hopefully if this is correct it will explain the reasoning behind the rules/rulings better. After reading this post and the referenced rulings repeatedly i think i have finally gotten to the point where I see the logic behind them all and why it is correctly ruled....taking back my previous stand in this topic regarding the dodging.
> Rulebook 6.4.5 says:
> Dodge. A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion and his possessions (cards on him) from the effects of the opposing strike. Retainers are not protected,
>
The effects encompasses all of what the strike triggers which causes harm (damage, destruction or stealing of equipment etc.) and thereby it is logical that the dodge protects against a strikes environmental damage effect as well (like it would against for ex. a destroy equipment effect and the likes). In the case of Necrosis as it is triggered from the strike and it is a harmful effect makes it dodge-able. The confusion is easily made as one has always gone by "the universal truth" that environmental damage isn´t dodge-able, which is correct with the "damage" being the keyword here, but that doesn´t apply if the environmental damage is sourced as an effect of a strike as the dodge is not protecting against the damage but against the "harmful effect". Would be good to further clarify this in the rules and re-write the entire section about environmental damage to reflect the difference better.
In terms of Target Vitals in relation to Dagon´s Call/Necrosis and Catatonic Fear
> Card text says:
> Name: Target Vitals
> [LotN:U, HttB:PSal3, Anthology:3, SP:PwN3]
> Cardtype: Combat
> Aim. Only usable as this minion chooses a strike. A minion can play only one aim each strike.
> If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, they take +2 damage from this strike, and they cannot press this round. They can discard two combat cards to cancel this card as it is played.
> Artist: Imaginary Friends Studios; Javier Santos; Imaginary Friends Studios
>
> Name: Dagon's Call
> [FN:C2/PA2, POD:DTC]
> Cardtype: Combat
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Quietus
> A vampire can play only one Dagon's Call each combat.
> [qui] Strike: hand strike, and the opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable environmental damage during the press step each round this combat (only effective if this strike was made at close range).
> [QUI] As above, and this hand strike is at +1 damage.
> Artist: Durwin Talon
>
> Name: Necrosis
> [LK:4]
> Cardtype: Combat
> Discipline: Thanatosis/Potence
> [pot] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
> [thn] Strike: hand strike at +2 damage.
> [THN] As [thn] above, and the opposing vampire takes 1 unpreventable environmental damage during the press step this round (only effective if this strike was made at close range).
> Artist: Javier Santos
>
> Name: Catatonic Fear
> [Sabbat:U, SW:U, FN:PS, CE:PTo, LoB:PI2, Third:U]
> Cardtype: Combat
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Presence
> (pre] Strike: combat ends.
> (PRE] As above, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close.
> Artist: Clint Langley
>
> LSJ wrote:
> There may be a wording which makes it a delayed effect, sure.
> But that would be pointless for an effect whose "delay time" is zero.
>
> groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/QreZ7T6AXxo/m/xISb0iogFgkJ
>
Target Vitals don´t apply on Dagon´s Call and Necrosis environmental damage because it is only triggered as an effect of the strike but not actually dealt/inflicted by the strike. Note the wording of the cards that say that "and the opposing X takes...environmental damage...", making it that the damage is not dealt/inflicted by the strike.
In the case of Catatonic Fear the wording is "and inflict...", making it that the damage is dealt/inflicted by the strike and therefore Target Vitals is applicable. When in the resolution of combat the damage is dealt/inflicted doesn´t matter to Target Vitals and as per LSJ the effects of a strike resolve where there is zero delay. What does matter to Target Vitals to make it applicable is that the damage must be dealt/inflicted by the strike.
> lip wrote:
> Question: Does Vampire B take +2 environmental damage during the press step?
>
No it doesn´t because the environmental damage from Dagon´s Call/Necrosis is not increasable by Target Vitals and therefore it only takes 1 environmental damage as stated in the card text.
The example given would result in Vampire B getting 1 environmental damage, the strike does 0 damage (1 damage "default damage" +2 damage from the superior Necrosis strike = 3 damage, which then Is all prevented by the superior Soak, this means that the +2 damage from Target Vitals aren’t applicable anymore) and 1 environmental damage.
Oh, thanks inm8, that's a pretty neat explanation for the rulings ☺︎
I was swayed by Bloodartist's comments, but my bad for not reading thoroughly the LSJ links Ankha provided in the first place - it's clear to me now ☺︎