Ashur Tablets discard timing

I didn't find a ruling on this. When playing a third Ashur Tablets, you get to put one of up to 13 cards back in your hand. Do you discard back to hand size before or after shuffling the remaining 12 in your library ? Ashur Tablets Put this card in play. If you control three copies, remove all copies in play (even controlled by other Methuselahs) from the game to gain 3 pool and choose up to thirteen library cards from your ash heap; move one of the chosen cards to your hand and shuffle the others in your library.

Why would it matter? You're over your hand size, which is why you're discarding down. You're not going to draw from your library until after the Ashur Tablets effect is complete.

Indeed, do you have something in mind? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

If the library is empty, or almost empty, the odds of the replacement card being one of the 12 can be relevant. So the presence or absence from the library at the time of replacement could matter. Example: 1 card left in my library, which I know is useless to me. Tablets will place 12 good cards in my library. If I replace BEFORE the re-shuffle, I get the useless card. Otherwise, I most likely get a good card.

But when you discard after ashur, tablet, you do not draw back because the discard was to discard down to your hand size. So you could shuffle after or before having discarded, there would be no relevant difference (at least I don't see any)

> kpram wrote: > If the library is empty, or almost empty, the odds of the replacement card being one of the 12 can be relevant. So the presence or absence from the library at the time of replacement could matter. > > Example: 1 card left in my library, which I know is useless to me. Tablets will place 12 good cards in my library. If I replace BEFORE the re-shuffle, I get the useless card. Otherwise, I most likely get a good card. > Almost. Your library would need to be empty and you'd need to have less than a full hand of cards to draw anything during the Ashur Tablets resolution. I guess that's the case this question is for. I don't see a reason to enforce a particular ordering. It would be foolish to put the cards in the library before placing one into hand, since that would forced to draw to hand size immediately, and then a discard when you finally place the last card into your hand.

> kschaefer wrote: > I don't see a reason to enforce a particular ordering. It would be foolish to put the cards in the library before placing one into hand, since that would forced to draw to hand size immediately, and then a discard when you finally place the last card into your hand. > But doesn't the card text answer this? Ashur Tablets specifies "move one of the chosen cards to your hand and shuffle the others in your library." What's the argument that this allows these steps to be done in any order? -- National Coordinator South Africa

> kschaefer wrote: > > > kpram wrote: > > If the library is empty, or almost empty, the odds of the replacement card being one of the 12 can be relevant. So the presence or absence from the library at the time of replacement could matter. > > > > Example: 1 card left in my library, which I know is useless to me. Tablets will place 12 good cards in my library. If I replace BEFORE the re-shuffle, I get the useless card. Otherwise, I most likely get a good card. > > > Almost. Your library would need to be empty and you'd need to have less than a full hand of cards to draw anything during the Ashur Tablets resolution. > > I guess that's the case this question is for. I don't see a reason to enforce a particular ordering. It would be foolish to put the cards in the library before placing one into hand, since that would forced to draw to hand size immediately, and then a discard when you finally place the last card into your hand. > i would think that even this case would not have any problem : you have 7 cards in hand and an empty library You play an ashur tablet and try to draw a replacement no draw You gain 3 pools and shuffle 12 cards in your library and 1 in hand you have 7 cards in hand and 12 cards in your library and no need to discard down because you don't have an extra card in hand. Nothing in ashur tablet card text force you to discard at any moment. It is the rules which make you discard if you have too many cards in hand.

Thank you all for your answers. You're right, the order of effects is moot, as you do not draw back from this discard, which I overlooked (I was quite tired and just noted the question as it arose during a game). I'm still a bit curious about the actual order of effects but will definitely need to come up with a better example where it matters ☺︎

> drnlmza wrote: > > > kschaefer wrote: > > I don't see a reason to enforce a particular ordering. It would be foolish to put the cards in the library before placing one into hand, since that would forced to draw to hand size immediately, and then a discard when you finally place the last card into your hand. > > > But doesn't the card text answer this? Ashur Tablets specifies "move one of the chosen cards to your hand and shuffle the others in your library." What's the argument that this allows these steps to be done in any order? > I don't think there is an argument to allow them to be done in any order. I was merely asserting that if any order were permissible (what OP was questioning), then you're actually at a disadvantage to put cards into your library prior to putting one in your hand. I agree that the card text seems clear, but heretofore the responses have all been, why would the ordering even matter.