Creeping Primogen

Hi dear cainites , Im very fond of the new angle that is offered the clan Nosferatu , i did throw a bunch of cards together but would like to have advices and review about this deck. The goal of the deck is to wall up while laying creeping sabotages . Here the list : Crypt : 1x Zelios pro ANI OBF POT can lock to pay a location with his blood rather than pool , primogn +1strength 8cap 1x Ruxandra ani aus OBF ventrue get -1int against ruxandra .You can use a dicard action and lock her to discard any number of cards 5 cap 1x Slag ani ani obf pot 4 cap 2x Lenny Burkhead obf pre pot ANI primogen +1 bleed 6 cap 3x The Dowager aus pot ANI OBF primogen +1int vs D action 6 cap 3x Larrissa pot ANI OBF primogen can discard a ani card for +1 bleed 6 cap 1x Baixinho ani obf 3 cap Master (20 cards) ================== 1x Erciyes Fragments, The 1x Fragment of the Book of Nod 1x Giant's Blood 1x Labyrinth, The 1x Powerbase: Montreal 1x Rack, The 1x Slum Hunting Ground 1x Smiling Jack, The Anarch 6x Villein 1x Wall Street Night, Financial Newspaper 2x Warsaw Station 2x Wash 1x Wider View Action (8 cards) ================== 2x Army of Rats 6x Creeping Sabotage Action Modifier/Combat (10 cards) ================== 3x Swallowed by the Night 5x Forgotten Labyrinth 2x Elder impersonation Ally (1 cards) ================== 1x Carlton Van Wyk Retainer (5 cards) ================== 5x Raven Spy Equipment (7 cards) ================== 2x .44 Magnum 1x Heart of Nizchetus 1x Ivory Bow 1x Sengir Dagger 2x Sniper Rifle Reaction (39 cards) ================== 6x Forced Awakening 4x Guard Dogs 4x Instinctive Reaction 6x On the Qui Vive 3x Read the Winds 7x Cats' Guidance 5x The Warrens 4x Protected District

It is very difficult to determine whether a deck is "good" without testing it, by only looking at the list. You should probably play with it to see whether it functions as you expect. I however notice some elements which might cause issues: - The number of reactions I think is too high.. which will probably cause card flow issues. Unlike actions and modifiers, reactions require opponent to do something that you react to, and you don't want to be blocking everything. The trick to playing a wall is knowing which actions to block. That is a topic of its own. I think the number of reactions should be in the neighborhood of 30 in a 90 card deck, but YMMV. - I'm not sure if you have enough sabotages to reliably have them as an ousting condition. - The main issue that I see, is that there is practically no stealth, yet there are several key actions that you must perform (sabotages, army of rats, weapons). If opponent would simply block your key actions, your deck would be largely neutered. Since none of your key actions are bleeds, I recommend you put 5 or so forgotten labyrinths to the deck (+3 stealth for a non-bleed action) which would help ensure that you get the actions that you need through. I recommend you play with the deck first though, to get a good feeling of it. Then tell us the results. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

It seems that the way to go with CS is to make half half others weenie. So Nosferatu are playing sabotages, others are equipping with ravens or rushing backwards. NC Russia

Would you have any slot for heavy reactions with the ANI Combat package ?

Not knowing the discipline spreads or capacities of the vampires in the crypt makes it difficult to provide useful feedback on the deck.

That s so true , ive edited the list to show the capacities of the crypt .

Hi , i prefer an ANI fight variant with Talbot and Larrissa for deck cycling. My deck version with new Nosfe: Deck Name: Nosfe G5/G6 Author: Namor Description: Rush/Intercept Animalism Nosfe Primo Crypt 12 ================== 2x Talbot 7 for ANI NEC PRO (Rush and cycle the hand) 3x Lenny Burkhead 6 obf pre pot ANI primogen +1 bleed 2x The Dowager 6 aus pot ANI OBF primogen +1int vs D action 3x Larrissa 6 pot ANI OBF primogen can discard a ani card for +1 bleed (bleed and cycle the hand) 2X Horace Radcliff 5 obf ANI POT Library: 81 cards Master (15 cards) ================== 1x Fame 1x Archon Investigation 1x Perfectionist 1x Powerbase: Montreal 1x Rack, The 1x Smiling Jack, The Anarch 3x Vessel 1x Warsaw Station 1x Wash 2x Blood Doll 1x Direct Intervention 1x Dreams of the Sphinx Action (12 cards) ================== 1x Army of Rats 7x Deep Song 4x Creeping Sabotage Action Modifier/Combat (3 cards) ================== 3x Swallowed by the Night Combat (27 cards) ================== 3x Target Vitals 3x Taste of Vitae 11x Aid from Bats 1x Canine Horde 9x Carrion Crows Retainer (3 cards) ================== 1x Mr. Winthrop 2x Raven Spy Equipment (2 cards) ================== 1x Heart of Nizchetus 1x Ivory Bow Reaction (18 cards) ================== 4x Forced Awakening 4x On the Qui Vive 4x Cats' Guidance 4x The Warrens 2x Protected District Event (1 cards) ================== 1x NSA Trio

I would prefer to drop primogen angle and just go with 3-4 group nosferatu weenies. It's BC game design - to make already annoying decks better. NC Russia

I tried the weenie ani grp 3 wich looked quite like a weenie ani anarch but having the creeping sabotage rather than the anarch revolt ; it felt clunky i only succeed in putting two of them on board and at some time i got stuck with my hand and couldnt defend them properly . The fact that almost half the crypt aint nosferatu is a pain in the ... you see what i mean . From this experience i'll conclude that reaction heavy package , which is needed to keep the sabotage on line , is not compatible with Ani combat.

> Surprise wrote: > I tried the weenie ani grp 3 wich looked quite like a weenie ani anarch but having the creeping sabotage rather than the anarch revolt ; it felt clunky i only succeed in putting two of them on board and at some time i got stuck with my hand and couldnt defend them properly . The fact that almost half the crypt aint nosferatu is a pain in the ... you see what i mean . > > From this experience i'll conclude that reaction heavy package , which is needed to keep the sabotage on line , is not compatible with Ani combat. > The problems that I see without testing, is that 1. Ani combat needs a ton of cards to be competitive and actually get something done 2. Ani combat has nothing against combat ends 3. If you go reaction-heavy and try to defend the sabotages, you also need a ton of reactions and there simply isn't enough space in the deck for all this. Trust me, I've tried to play combat-walls a lot myself. I do suspect that its better if you try to set up things so that opponents (or at the very least prey) doesn't have the actions to remove the sabotages. I am not sure that sabotages are better than anarch revolts, but they could be on an even ground. I will eventually try sabotages out, at least when they arrive in lackey. Maybe offline after new year. I am not willing to give up on them before any actual gameplay takes place. I think they show promise. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Surprise wrote: > > I tried the weenie ani grp 3 wich looked quite like a weenie ani anarch but having the creeping sabotage rather than the anarch revolt ; it felt clunky i only succeed in putting two of them on board and at some time i got stuck with my hand and couldnt defend them properly . The fact that almost half the crypt aint nosferatu is a pain in the ... you see what i mean . > > > > From this experience i'll conclude that reaction heavy package , which is needed to keep the sabotage on line , is not compatible with Ani combat. > > > The problems that I see without testing, is that > 1. Ani combat needs a ton of cards to be competitive and actually get something done > I disagree: Aid from Bats + Carrion Crows is one of the most efficient combat package. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I am not saying Ani combat package is inefficient , i m just saying that in order to defend the sabotage (which can be removed by any minion ) you need to be able to block constantly like a wall deck do , and we can all agree that one of the best , if not the best wall deck is Goratrix Wall ,especially because he only need a minimal amount of combat cards and is effective even without playing one , which directly makes room for more reaction cards or master . Animalism combat on the other hand takes an awful amount of cards to be effective in combat each time you get in combat ( like 48 out of 80 cards for example ) Hereby i have the hunch that sabotage deck must find another source of stable combat . But i could be wrong , at that point i m full of doubt and not certitudes and totally open to debate about this .

> Surprise wrote: > I am not saying Ani combat package is inefficient , i m just saying that in order to defend the sabotage (which can be removed by any minion ) you need to be able to block constantly like a wall deck do , and we can all agree that one of the best , if not the best wall deck is Goratrix Wall ,especially because he only need a minimal amount of combat cards and is effective even without playing one , which directly makes room for more reaction cards or master . > > Animalism combat on the other hand takes an awful amount of cards to be effective in combat each time you get in combat ( like 48 out of 80 cards for example ) > > Hereby i have the hunch that sabotage deck must find another source of stable combat . > > But i could be wrong , at that point i m full of doubt and not certitudes and totally open to debate about this . > Well, if you want to play a deck with 48/80 red cards, you're right ANI is not the best option. For a wallish deck with ANI combat package, I would go with 7/9 Carrion, 10/12 aid from bats and 4/5 taste of vitae And of course some good permanent like ivory bow and sniper and/or .44. When you have a vamp with a raven spy and a sniper rifle unlocked, you need much less wakes. And I think you overestimate the need to be wallish with this deck : Creeping sabotage is not Smiling Jack and nobody except your prey (and to some extent your predator) will have any reason to come burn them.

> Timo wrote: > Creeping sabotage is not Smiling Jack and nobody except your prey (and to some extent your predator) will have any reason to come burn them. > I think grand-preys with lots of minion might be interested in keeping the number of Creeping Sabotage in check. They will want to balance the pressure of CS with the desire to not be creeped upon. I also suspect that once you are really going to work on your prey with CS that your grand-prey is going to start taking an interest. Whether that means dealing with you not to put one in play or burning one that is in play, you're going to get some interaction there.

> kschaefer wrote: > > > Timo wrote: > > Creeping sabotage is not Smiling Jack and nobody except your prey (and to some extent your predator) will have any reason to come burn them. > > > I think grand-preys with lots of minion might be interested in keeping the number of Creeping Sabotage in check. They will want to balance the pressure of CS with the desire to not be creeped upon. > > I also suspect that once you are really going to work on your prey with CS that your grand-prey is going to start taking an interest. Whether that means dealing with you not to put one in play or burning one that is in play, you're going to get some interaction there. > OK OK, I was a little overstating my point... There is always some situations where somebody will want to screw with your plan. But with creeping sabotage, you will have some terrible difficulties having more than 5 in play (the 6th one cost you 4 bloods if one of them is an army of rats and 5 bloods otherwise) and even 5 is already a lot having cost you 5 successful actions for a total of 6 bloods (10 if no army of rats). And doing 5 damages a turn to your prey is cool but not so game breaking that the table will want to go against you barring some deal with your prey who is the one being killed (and yes, your grand prey is effectively your prey if you have more CS than your actual prey has pools during your grand prey turn ^^)

> Ankha wrote: > I disagree: Aid from Bats + Carrion Crows is one of the most efficient combat package. > Yep that it is. I just have a different view on things. For me its not enough to just "tickle" the opponent and cost them blood. For me the purpose of combat is to torporize the opponent. At any rate, you need lot of aid from bats in the deck to reliably have it in your hand when you need it. This runs into the issue of having to have lot of reactions as well, in addition to the ousting cards. A combat wall that needs to have lots of ousting cards (sabotages) as well is, quite frankly, unfeasible. I speak from experience. I would instead go for a more permanent kind of combat package, such as magnums or something. Maybe have vast wealth to dig them up quicker, along with some stealth cards. There are a lot of possibilities and so far Im just spitballing. I need to try making this deck myself. ps. The Line goes very well with creeping sabotages. Defending it speaks in favor of a more wall-ish approach. Also I just want to remind of you of the issue of printing very strong cards in a limited print run. These cards feel somewhat pay-to-win. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Cards giving table changing/threatening effect might very well prompt removal actions from across the table. Naturally depending on the table situation and and the persuasion skills involved... Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > Cards giving table changing/threatening effect might very well prompt removal actions from across the table. Naturally depending on the table situation and and the persuasion skills involved... > Or offer a good opportunity for making deals with other players. Especially when it involves decks that don't usually make deals such a stealth bleed. A stealth minion removing a sabotage across the table for a beneficial deal seems like it could happen. But at the end of the day, both sabotage and army of rats hit only the immediate prey, and thus are not cards that the entire table wants to remove at least immediately. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > > But at the end of the day, both sabotage and army of rats hit only the immediate prey, and thus are not cards that the entire table wants to remove at least immediately. > Same can be said for 419 operation, but I very clearly remember whole table ganging up to help my prey on two consecutive tables during Finish national a few years back. One should not underestimate 'f***, that can not be bounced, that deck need to die!' factor.