> Ankha wrote:
>
> > beslin wrote:
> > 3. whu him cannot use coven now,whu pas the impulse?
> >
> You should try using a translator, your questions are hard to understand.
> Who are you talking about? E? Another player?
> Also, I read: "3. player E has the impulse and can't pass" but you are asking "whu pas the impulse?" so I'm unsure what you're asking.
>
> > beslin wrote:
> > 5. i beleive player E can chose to use coven in his predator turn because him maybe cannot decide what vampir need blood?
> >
> I don't understand the question, sorry.
>
> > beslin wrote:
> > A) what if controler coven dont have ready minion,can him look it only to not give gift his predator 2 blood?
> >
> You cannot use the Coven if you don't have a ready vampire.
>
I mean on point 3. from Pascal answer who say:
> player E has the impulse and can't pass ( because she has to take the Coven). Let's say she uses the impulse to take the Coven (she could draw from Barrens, ...)<
So whu E only take Coven,whu cannot use before impulse pass?
Point 5 from Pascal answer:
> player E uses the Coven <
I ask player E probably can use Coven to gain 2 blood later,example is his predator(D) turn?
and have bonus question : player with Coven and Scourge have vampires in torpor,Dragonbound is in play,when player resolve Dragonbound need to be ousted. does Coven and Scourge is removed with him,or him can discard card,pass impulse,his predator take Coven and Scourge,and after impulse back him be ousted by Dragonbound?
Dragonbound
Gehenna. Do not replace as long as this card is in play.
During each Methuselah's discard phase, that Methuselah burns 1 pool for each vampire in torpor they control.
Scourge of the Enochians
During your discard phase, you can burn a vampire with capacity 2 or less, and your predator takes control of this card (even if you do not burn a vampire).
> beslin wrote:
> I mean on point 3. from Pascal answer who say:
> > player E has the impulse and can't pass ( because she has to take the Coven). Let's say she uses the impulse to take the Coven (she could draw from Barrens, ...)<
> So whu E only take Coven,whu cannot use before impulse pass?
>
Standard sequencing rules.
Whenever any player does anything that isn't "pass", the impulse goes back to the acting player.
Forget Coven. A simple example that occurs all the time is "before range is determined" cards in combat.
Two of us in combat, and we'll ignore the other three players.
You (acting): I play Increased Strength.
Impulse stays with you, because you're acting.
You: pass.
Me (not acting) - what I want to do is play all three of Torn Signpost, Carrion Crows, and Trap, but the acting player has never seen my deck before.
Me: I play Torn Signpost.
Because I have done something, the impulse goes to you, because you're acting.
You: I wasn't expecting you to play anything! Okay, I play Terror Frenzy (superior) to increase your costs.
Impulse stays with you, because you're acting.
You: pass.
Me: Gah, now I can only afford to play Carrion Crows. I play Carrion Crows.
Because I have done something, the impulse goes to you, because you're acting.
You: pass.
Me: pass.
Before range is determined ends.
The non-acting player(s) cannot string multiple cards or effects together in the same timing phase, without the impulse going back to the acting player each time.
> Rulebook, wrote:
> Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.
>
Often in practice, the acting player won't have much to do and the non-acting player will throw down several cards. Or similar things. But if the acting player does want to intervene, they can - the impulse goes back to them each time.
> beslin wrote:
> and have bonus question : player with Coven and Scourge have vampires in torpor,Dragonbound is in play,when player resolve Dragonbound need to be ousted. does Coven and Scourge is removed with him,or him can discard card,pass impulse,his predator take Coven and Scourge,and after impulse back him be ousted by Dragonbound?
>
> Dragonbound
> Gehenna. Do not replace as long as this card is in play.
>
> During each Methuselah's discard phase, that Methuselah burns 1 pool for each vampire in torpor they control.
>
> Scourge of the Enochians
>
> During your discard phase, you can burn a vampire with capacity 2 or less, and your predator takes control of this card (even if you do not burn a vampire).
>
If I am correct, the acting player can't pass the impulse before having resolved the effect of dragonbound.
This means that his predator can't have the impulse to take control of the coven.
BUT, if I read the cards correctly, Scourge is handle differently because the acting player can use it burning (or not) a vampire, giving the impulse to his predator and making him take control of the Scourge and then triggering the dragonbound and killing him after having "given" the scourge.
Is it correct ?
Name: The Coven
[SW:R, Anarchs:PAG, KoT:PM, 25th:1]
Cardtype: Master
Unique. Trifle.
Put this card in play. Lock to add 2 blood to a ready vampire you control. During your discard phase, your predator takes control of The Coven.
Artist: Brian LeBlanc
> Timo wrote:
> BUT, if I read the cards correctly, Scourge is handle differently because the acting player can use it burning (or not) a vampire, giving the impulse to his predator and making him take control of the Scourge and then triggering the dragonbound and killing him after having "given" the scourge.
>
> Is it correct ?
>
When the acting player sequences in handling Scourge of the Enochians, they burn the vampire (or not) and Scourge moves to their predator. That doesn't give the impulse to their predator, it just means a card has moved. Their predator doesn't, at that point, get the opportunity to use a card or play an effect.
The acting player retains the impulse, because they always have the opportunity to use the next card or effect with the same timing. They can then trigger Dragonbound (and die, assuming they have little enough pool).
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Timo wrote:
> > BUT, if I read the cards correctly, Scourge is handle differently because the acting player can use it burning (or not) a vampire, giving the impulse to his predator and making him take control of the Scourge and then triggering the dragonbound and killing him after having "given" the scourge.
> >
> > Is it correct ?
> >
> When the acting player sequences in handling Scourge of the Enochians, they burn the vampire (or not) and Scourge moves to their predator. That doesn't give the impulse to their predator, it just means a card has moved. Their predator doesn't, at that point, get the opportunity to use a card or play an effect.
>
> The acting player retains the impulse, because they always have the opportunity to use the next card or effect with the same timing. They can then trigger Dragonbound (and die, assuming they have little enough pool).
>
What I meant by "giving the impulse" is that the text of scourge says that "your predator takes control of this card" so I thought that it was an action from the predator.
> Timo wrote:
> What I meant by "giving the impulse" is that the text of scourge says that "your predator takes control of this card" so I thought that it was an action from the predator.
>
Not in any meaningful sense. The predator isn't being given an effect to declare. You're just resolving the whole effect of using Scourge, which happens to include control of the card changing.
I imagine the "Your predator takes..." writing was a) less ambiguous than something like "Give this to..." (no mention of control), b) less annoying than something like "Control of this card passes to...", and c) fits in more easily with earlier templating, like Uriah Winter and Disputed Territory (from the V:TES wording of Disputed). And I can pretty much guarantee that during the printing of Jyhad and the updating for the V:TES set, no-one was thinking about the finer nuances of the sequencing rules.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Timo wrote:
> > What I meant by "giving the impulse" is that the text of scourge says that "your predator takes control of this card" so I thought that it was an action from the predator.
> >
> Not in any meaningful sense. The predator isn't being given an effect to declare. You're just resolving the whole effect of using Scourge, which happens to include control of the card changing.
>
> I imagine the "Your predator takes..." writing was a) less ambiguous than something like "Give this to..." (no mention of control), b) less annoying than something like "Control of this card passes to...", and c) fits in more easily with earlier templating, like Uriah Winter and Disputed Territory (from the V:TES wording of Disputed). And I can pretty much guarantee that during the printing of Jyhad and the updating for the V:TES set, no-one was thinking about the finer nuances of the sequencing rules.
>
But it is the exact same wording than the coven no ?
> Timo wrote:
> But it is the exact same wording than the coven no ?
>
Not exactly, no.
The Coven has a standalone effect:
During your discard phase, your predator takes control of The Coven.
Scourge of the Enochians has one big thing where the acting player has a decision to make, about when to activate it and whether to burn anything with it:
During your discard phase, you can burn a vampire with capacity 2 or less, and your predator takes control of this card (even if you do not burn a vampire).
Activating my Scourge and burning something is linked to passing control.
Sourge gives you a non-mandatory effect, then you pass the impulse, your predator has a mandatory effect to take control.
I don't see how it should not work like The Coven: if everybody forgets about it, you have to rollback to the mandatory effect for your predator to take it, but you don't rollback to the non-mandatory effect you could have applied.
Using the same logic, taking the pool loss from Dragonbound is mandatory: the impulse can not be passed before applying this effect. So the dying player cannot "pass" the Scourge nor the Coven to their predator before being ousted, since their predator would need the impulse to take them (card text), and the impulse cannot be passed before Dragonbound effect is resolved.
> lip wrote:
> Sourge gives you a non-mandatory effect, then you pass the impulse, your predator has a mandatory effect to take control.
>
"During X, do Y and someone else does Z" doesn't work that way on other cards.
Example, Form of Corruption:
If the number of counters on this card equals or exceeds the amount of blood on a vampire controlled by your prey during your master phase, you can burn this card to steal that vampire. A Methuselah can have only one Form of Corruption.
[SER] As above, and your prey burns 1 pool after you burn this card.
I'm pretty sure that no-one has ever thought that this works like follows:
1) Burn the card and steal that vampire, but no pool is burned
2) Acting player continues with their master phase, doing other things
3) Acting player finishes their things in their master phase and passes
4) The prey now resolves their mandatory effect to burn 1 pool, after you've potentially done a whole bunch of stuff
This could be relevant if, for example, you stole a vampire who gave you additional hand size, so you draw into a card that you want to play. Imagine:
a) You are on one pool.
b) I steal your Count Jocalo (or any other vampire with +hand size) using Form of Corruption.
c) I get additional hand size, and draw into Hostile Takeover
d) I play Hostile Takeover on your vampire because you are still in the game
e) Having stolen your vampire, I pass, and you burn the pool. You're now ousted.
If the "During X, I do Y and you do Z" effects are tied together, that can't happen - you're ousted before I can play Hostile Takeover, so your vampire is no longer in the game.
Ditto, the timing of removing a vampire from the game and burning pool from (errata-ed) Return to Innocence.
Note also that even though certain effects may be mandatory, optional things can come before them. (This isn't the case with mandatory minion phase actions.) I can't pass if I have a mandatory effect, but I can do a different thing with the same timing. Examples:
- Weather Control makes it mandatory for both minions to take damage during the pre-range period, but I can play other cards before sequencing it in. [LSJ 20050406]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> >> Weather Control
> >> it's perfectly ok for me to play weather control, _not_ apply the
> >> damage just yet, play an aura reading, play some other before range
> >> cards, and then apply the damage effect if i want, right? i can order
> >> it (subject to sequencing), just not leave the 'before range' step
> >> without applying it....(kind of parallel to DotB above)
> >
> > Yes, if you're the acting Methuselah (with the modification that you
> > can't "apply the damage effect if i want" -- the damage must be applied,
> > even if someone plays superior Alpha Glint, taps Mariel, etc.
>
> Correct.
>
- Using Vessel (optional) can go before Fame (mandatory). [LSJ 20100706]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > When different effects happen at the same time, I get to
> > choose in which order to apply those effects (ie, Vessel and Fame).
>
> Except for "untap all your cards", which cannot be ordered after other
> effects, but instead must be the first thing you do in your untap
> phase.
>
So in general, a Methuselah with the impulse could do an optional effect before a mandatory effect, if they had one. They just can't pass with a mandatory effect.
Well I agree and you make a strong point.
I must also say I think you might be right, cause you usually are ☺︎
For now though, I stand by my position ☺︎
- Agree: I don't think Form of Corruption works like Coven.
- Agree: you can order non-mandatory before mandatory effects. You can use the Scourge before passing the impulse.
- Still disagree: I think Scourge work the same as The Coven: the mandatory effect to take control of it is for you predator to execute, not you. I don't think the rulings you linked make a very strong case in face of this Coven ruling.
As I understand it, you read the "and" in the card text as linking the two effects into a single effect to apply (you may well be right). On my part I wouldn't assume so much about this conjunction and read it just as presenting a succession of two separated effects:
1. Non-mandatory burn a low-cap vampire.
---
and (meaning then, afterwards: contrary to the Form of Corruption, nothing in the text makes the second effect conditional on the first being executed: if you do not burn a low-cap vampire, your predator still takes control of the Scourge.)
---
2. Pass the impulse, your predator has a mandatory effect to take control of the Scourge.
Anyhow, I'd very much like a ruling in one way or the other so I can include it in the list ☺︎
Note I don't think any way of interpreting it is better than the other. I would just like to know how to resolve it next time someone forgets to use his Scourge ^_^ Does his predator take it like The Coven with a "ahah you forgot, too late" grin, or does he just lay low with his Tupdog hoping everyone forgets about the Scourge ☺︎
> lip wrote:
> - Still disagree: I think Scourge work the same as The Coven: the mandatory effect to take control of it is for you predator to execute, not you. I don't think the rulings you linked make a very strong case in face of this Coven ruling.
>
How can the effect be predators to execute, if they are not in control of the card? I say the effect is that the current controller passes control to the predator.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
I guess the difference comes from Scourge having both clauses in the same sentence, rather than in different sentences. You can interrupt the resolution of a card like Rötschreck using Psyche!, because it has different sentences. A "do X and Y" cannot be interrupted. Therefore, when you choose to use scourge or decline to use scourge, you have to complete the last part of that sentence before doing anything else - therefore the impulse does not leave the Player whose turn it is and still the Players predator takes control of the Scourge. There is nothing like that for the Coven.
And still, if the player passes he declines using the Scourge, therefore his predator has to take controll, even though the first part wasn't declined explicitly.
The only thing I question now, after writing this and thinking about it, is whether you can decline using the scourge without passing the impulse - therefore in the case of being ousted by Dragonbound, can you still pass the scourge if there is no vampire (you want) to burn, before being ousted?
Prince of Bonn, Germany
> lip wrote:
> - Still disagree: I think Scourge work the same as The Coven:
>
How? Coven doesn't have two things happening together during your discard phase. Coven doesn't give the acting Methuselah a choice to make.
> lip wrote:
> and (meaning then, afterwards: contrary to the Form of Corruption, nothing in the text makes the second effect conditional on the first being executed: if you do not burn a low-cap vampire, your predator still takes control of the Scourge.)
>
I'm struggling to see how you're not seeing two things happening together with one governing timing clause.
Along similar lines, I see:
During your influence phase, move 2 blood to this face down vampire from the blood bank, and you can choose to burn this card to return the vampire to play, locked.
...from Descent into Darkness as being one big thing (with two sub-things) that goes off "during your influence phase", where you put blood on, and then optionally return it to play, because the two things are:
a) part of the same timing,
b) linked by "and".
Based on this thread, I think you read it as saying (not real text):
During your influence phase, move 2 blood to this face down vampire from the blood bank. During your influence phase, you can choose to burn this card to return the vampire to play, locked.
... where one mandatory thing and one optional thing are two entirely distinct things you can do separately, despite being introduced by the same timing text, linked together with "and".
> lip wrote:
>
> As I understand it, you read the "and" in the card text as linking the two effects into a single effect to apply (you may well be right). On my part I wouldn't assume so much about this conjunction and read it just as presenting a succession of two separated effects:
> 1. Non-mandatory burn a low-cap vampire.
> ---
> and (meaning then, afterwards: contrary to the Form of Corruption, nothing in the text makes the second effect conditional on the first being executed: if you do not burn a low-cap vampire, your predator still takes control of the Scourge.)
> ---
> 2. Pass the impulse, your predator has a mandatory effect to take control of the Scourge.
>
Just to give an example of impulse being passed with mandatory effect still to be triggered by the active player :
Let's say a vampire with ANI and a talbot chainsaw is the active player, in combat and has played a Drawing out the Beast at superior.
During the press step, the active player decide to trigger the effect of the drawing sup doing 1 point of damage to the opposing vampire.
This one will have the impulse to handle this point of damage (burning a blood to heal it, potentially playing a skin of night to treat it as normal damage because this damage was aggravated) before continuing with the press step and having the active player use the mandatory press from the chainsaw.
I think the impulse should be treated the same way with scourge and dragonbound :
the active player decide to trigger the scourge burning (or not) a vampire. This give the impulse to his predator who have to take control of the scourge and then the impulse come back to the active player who can do everything he want including burning pool from dragonbound (and potentially dying without controlling the scourge).
> Strike: 3 damage. If the bearer is ready during your unlock phase, this weapon inflicts 3 unpreventable damage on a ready minion you control. The bearer cannot hunt. The bearer can enter combat with a minion as a +1 stealth action. The bearer gets 1 press, only usable to continue combat during the first round, and can prevent 1 damage each combat.
>
> Frenzy. Only usable before range is determined during the first round of combat. A vampire can play only one Drawing Out the Beast each combat. This combat, the opposing vampire gets +1 strength, and cannot maneuver to long range, press to end combat or use equipment. As above, and the opposing vampire takes 1 unpreventable environmental damage during the press step each round.
>
@jamesatzephy: I must say you convinced me you must be right ☺︎
@Timo: Interesting point - I'd say applying damage opens a damage prevention window immediately, which would need to be resolved before handling the next effect (even a mandatory one), but I could argue the damage prevention window is kind of a special case and you can't apply the same logic to linked effects like in the Scourge case.
Thanks for the exchange and the well argumented points.
I would still like an official ruling for this one to include in KRCG. Do you think I should start a separated (shorter, clear, to the point) ?
I suspect that the designer wanted it to work like the Coven (hence the same wording) but without realizing that adding the first effect triggered by the active player makes it clunky.
It could have been written:
"During your discard phase, you can burn a vampire with capacity 2 or less. During your discard phase, your predator takes control of this card (even if you do not burn a vampire)." but would have been shortened to its current cardtext.
Anyway, as it is, either the player uses it, and their predator gains control of it during the process, or the player declines to use it by passing the impulse.
The latter cannot be done if there are some mandatory effects to resolve, such as Dragonbound.
> beslin wrote:
> and have bonus question : player with Coven and Scourge have vampires in torpor,Dragonbound is in play,when player resolve Dragonbound need to be ousted. does Coven and Scourge is removed with him,or him can discard card,pass impulse,his predator take Coven and Scourge,and after impulse back him be ousted by Dragonbound?
>
He cannot pass the impulse because there is the Dragonbound effect to handle.
His predator will never be able to get the Coven.
His predator gets the Scourge only if the player uses it to burn a vampire, before handling the effect of the Dragonbound,
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director