The central question is: is the damage inflicted even if the strike would no damage due to (one of) several Reasons:
The strike is a hand strike or other close range strike and the combat is at long range
The Strike did no damage to begin with.
The Strike was dodged.
The combat ended to to S:CE of the opposing minion
The combat ended due to S:CE from your minion
> Thoughts Betrayed
> Only usable before range is determined on the first round.
> [dom] Opposing minion takes 1 additional damage in the first round of combat during normal strike resolution.
> [DOM] Opposing minion cannot play any strike cards for the duration of this combat.
>
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> The central question is: is the damage inflicted even if the strike would no damage due to (one of) several Reasons:
>
> The strike is a hand strike or other close range strike and the combat is at long range
>
> The Strike did no damage to begin with.
>
> The combat ended to to S:CE of the opposing minion
>
> The combat ended due to S:CE from your minion
>
> > Thoughts Betrayed
> > Only usable before range is determined on the first round.
> > [dom] Opposing minion takes 1 additional damage in the first round of combat during normal strike resolution.
> > [DOM] Opposing minion cannot play any strike cards for the duration of this combat.
> >
I'm assuming we're talking about the inferior and will proceed with that.
> ... is the damage inflicted ... The strike is a hand strike or other close range strike and the combat is at long range
>
Yes. The opposing minion takes 1 additional damage in the first round of combat during normal strike resolution as Thoughts betrayed is not a strike, therefore it does not care on the range. If there was a restriction on it's range, as a non-strike card, it would be mentioned like in the Wolf Companion; [ani] When the minion with this retainer is in combat, the opposing minion takes 1 damage during strike resolution (if the range is close). See Ankha below.
> ... is the damage inflicted ...The Strike did no damage to begin with.
>
Yes. The opposing minion takes 1 additional damage in the first round of combat during normal strike resolution as Thoughts betrayed is only tied to normal strike resolution and not on what the strikes actually are during it. What the text refers is how the damage is not added to the strike, but comes in addition to the strikes, meaning cards specifically preventing "all damage from enemy strike(s)" like Skin of Steel do not prevent the 1 damage from Thoughts Betrayed. You need Skin of Rock or similar for it that does not care about the damage source.
> ... is the damage inflicted ...The combat ended to to S:CE of the opposing minion
>
No. Per rules regarding Combat ends they are first effect to resolve and the combat ends before other strike resolution effects are resolved;
> Rulebook wrote:
>
> Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. ...
>
Thoughts Betrayed would deal one damage during normal (not first strike) strike resolution but that step is never reached if S:CE's are played.
> ... is the damage inflicted ...The combat ended due to S:CE from your minion
>
No, the reason is same and it's irrelevant who played the S:CE.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
I saw you edited your post while I was replying, tossing this here as well.
> ... is the damage inflicted ...The Strike was dodged.
>
Yes. Per rules on strike effects, dodge protects only from the opposing minion's strike and it's effects. Thoughts Betrayed is not a strike.
> http://www.vekn.net/rulebook wrote:
> Dodge. A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion and his possessions (cards on him) from the effects of the opposing strike. Retainers are not protected, however. A dodge is effective at any range. A dodge protects even from the effects of a strike done with first strike. (A dodge is a strike, even though it is solely defensive. It represents the activity of the minion during that pair of strikes.)
>
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> The central question is: is the damage inflicted even if the strike would no damage due to (one of) several Reasons:
>
I assume you're playing Thoughts Betrayed at inferior.
It works exactly like damage from a Carrion Crows, but only at close range, and only during the first round of combat.
I assume that when you say "the strike", you mean "the strike from the vampire playing Thoughts Betrayed".
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> The strike is a hand strike or other close range strike and the combat is at long range
>
If the combat is at long range, TB inflicts no damage.
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> The Strike did no damage to begin with.
>
Only range matters.
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> The Strike was dodged.
>
Same thing.
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> The combat ended to to S:CE of the opposing minion
>
Then there is no "normal strike resolution" (it is skipped) and TB inflicts no damage.
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> The combat ended due to S:CE from your minion
>
Same thing.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Kilrauko wrote:
>
> > Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> >
> > > ... is the damage inflicted ... The strike is a hand strike or other close range strike and the combat is at long range
> > >
> > Yes. The opposing minion takes 1 additional damage in the first round of combat during normal strike resolution as Thoughts betrayed is not a strike, therefore it does not care on the range.
> >
> It does care, it's not "R"anged damage.
> See groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/FinHO99QB3k/SYllmNedfGUJ
>
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> > The central question is: is the damage inflicted even if the strike would no damage due to (one of) several Reasons:
> >
> I assume you're playing Thoughts Betrayed at inferior.
> It works exactly like damage from a Carrion Crows, but only at close range, and only during the first round of combat.
>
I assumed TB was akin to Bestial Vengeance (no mention of the range in card text;
> Name: Bestial Vengeance
> [EK:R]
> Cardtype: Combat
> Discipline: Animalism
> Requires a Laibon.
> [ani] Only usable before range is determined. Choose a retainer on this Laibon. This combat, this Laibon is immune to frenzy cards and the opposing minion takes 1 damage during strike resolution if the retainer is ready. A vampire can play only one Bestial Vengeance each combat.
> [ANI] As above, but for 2 damage.
> Artist: Heather V. Kreiter
>
"... and the opposing minion takes 1 damage during strike resolution if the retainer is ready." due to no mention of the requirement for close range, please check this newer LSJ to confirm and whether or not TB is akin to Bestial Vengeance or Carrion Crows that states 2R.
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/6DEbXHjKGhE/1T4TclVRikoJ
> Non-existant user wrote:
> floppyzedolfin wrote:
> > There we go:
> >
> > Minion A (acting) is in combat with minion B (reacting).
> >
> > 1 / Minion A has a Tasha Morgan, and has played a Bestial Vengeance,
> > choosing Tasha Morgan.
> > Range is long, A's strike is to strike with his .44 Magnum. B's strike
> > is Theft of Vitae, targetting Tasha Morgan.
> > Can A order his "during strike resolution" effects, in order to have
> > Bestial Vengeance inflict B damage (without handling the damage yet)
> > before Tasha Morgan burns due to B's Theft of Vitae?
> > Can A order thing the other way around : Theft resolves before Bestial
> > Vengeance ? (perhaps A played Bestial Vengeance expecting B to play
> > Weather Control, and A didn't want to hurt B that much)
>
> There's nothing to order. Strike resolution is simultaneous.
>
> Apply strike resolution effects:
>
> * .44 applies 2 damage to B
> * Theft of Vitae moves 1 blood (life) from Tasha Morgan to B
> * Bestial Vengeance applies 1 damage to B.
>
> (All simultaneous)
>
> Then (after any excess blood drains off) handle the damage applied:
> B burns 3 blood to heal three damage.
>
Tho now seeing that 2002 LSJ TB specific makes me think he just missed the "Range is long," part in that 2009 post. Does this mean Drawing out the Beast that applies 1 unpreventable damage on press step also does not do so if the range has been set for long as it does not specifically mention 1R unpreventable damage?
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
> beslin wrote:
> maybe is there correct replace word on card additional to enviromental
>
This has nothing to do with range. "Environmental" indicates that the source of the damage is not tied to a minion or retainer or another card.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > beslin wrote:
> > maybe is there correct replace word on card additional to enviromental
> >
> This has nothing to do with range. "Environmental" indicates that the source of the damage is not tied to a minion or retainer or another card.
>
Yea,i know,but you see to people confused word additional,but if you say "Environmental" no more confusion.
Groaning Corpse inflict damage only in close range and in text have word "Environmental"
Groaning Corpse
Only usable before range is determined.
h X is the number of Groaning Corpses already played this combat. The opposing minion takes 1 environmental damage each round this combat during normal strike resolution at close range.
H As above, but for 2 environmental damage. A vampire can play only one Groaning Corpse at superior each combat.
The word "additional" is what brought up the confusion in the first place.
Reading up on rulings considering environmental damage, I noticed there is a difference between environmental damage and damage not from the minion. So it should be clarified if the damage comes from the minion, from the card, or is environmental. In the first case, it should be added specifically that the damage comes from the minion (maybe that is what was tried to be achieved via the wording additional, though it gave rise to the confusion what happens with non-damaging strikes). In the second case, the word additional should be removed, since it simply inflicts 1 damage and there is nothing the damage could be added to. In the third case the word environmental should be added.
Prince of Bonn, Germany
> Yomyael wrote:
> The word "additional" is what brought up the confusion in the first place.
>
> Reading up on rulings considering environmental damage, I noticed there is a difference between environmental damage and damage not from the minion. So it should be clarified if the damage comes from the minion, from the card, or is environmental.
>
In that case, damage "from the card" or "environmental" would be the relatively the same. The damage is not inflicted by a minion, retainer, equipment etc. and uses a "passive" form (the opposing minion takes...) => it is environmental damage.
> Yomyael wrote:
> In the first case, it should be added specifically that the damage comes from the minion (maybe that is what was tried to be achieved via the wording additional, though it gave rise to the confusion what happens with non-damaging strikes). In the second case, the word additional should be removed, since it simply inflicts 1 damage and there is nothing the damage could be added to. In the third case the word environmental should be added.
>
Future cardtext should be:
[dom] The opposing minion takes 1 environmental damage during normal strike resolution at close range this round.
But this will have to wait until a reprint.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director