Merged Keminitri and Closed Session

Just to make sure, if merged Kemintri plays Closed Session during a referendum, does she get her Justicar votes ? [LSJ 20050131] says no, but from the discussion around [ANK 20190228] , it seems that it works as for allies playing cards as a vampire (and has changed around 2006), and I would have said the Closed Session effect is a duration effect. Kemintri (ADV) Advanced, Independent. Red List: +1 stealth. Kemintiri has 3 votes (titled). She can play minion cards that require Camarilla, Ventrue, and/or a justicar title as if she met that/those requirement(s). Closed Session Requires a ready prince, justicar or Inner Circle member. Only usable during a referendum, before any votes and ballots are cast. Non-Camarilla vampires cannot cast votes or ballots in this referendum.

The Mata Hari ruling www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/77427-mata-hari-and-hakim-s-law-leadership?start=42#93785 should apply here and Kemintiri should get her votes. The card will see her as a Justicar for the duration of the action.

This post is why I was asking - Haqim's Law is clear, because even if resolution is delayed, Mata is still considered Assamite at resolution. For Closed Session, the effect resolves (Kemintri is Justicar for resolution) but, then, it creates a lingering effect that does not allow non-Cama to vote. But is she still considered Camarilla Justicar for this lingering effect when the referendum proceeds ? Closed Session has fully resolved... There's an argument here to say LSJ's ruling still applies. I don't know. I need Ankha ☺︎

I can't find it, but the classic example that changed the tide, I believe, was Mata Hari + Raking Talons.

groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/6TRdODRGIkg/eanvevsNqYsJ Here is the post with the Mata Hari + Raking Talons change. It is also cited in Ankha's post linked in the original post. LSJ mentions in his post: The change would be applied to everything which uses the base rule as a precedent. Mata, Kemintiri, etc. So in LSJ's change of the rules, Kemintiri is specifically mentionend. From what I read in that thread, the earlier ruling was based on how the rulebook handled allies playing cards as vampires. The change of the ruling is then based on the change of rules concerning allies playing cards as vampires. The current rules are: > Rulebook wrote: > Some allies have the ability to play certain cards "as a vampire." In these cases, the ally is treated as a vampire for all effects generated by the play of the card, including duration effects (like "for the remainder of combat"). [ text removed ] The ally is treated as a vampire only for the effect generated from playing the card. In particular, the ally is not treated as a vampire for effects the card has from being in play (like "the vampire with this card" effects). > This is the rule that is used to determine how things work when they are played as something - therefore Kemintiri has her votes, as it is a consequence of her playing that card as a Justicar that does not depend on the card being in play. Prince of Bonn, Germany

> lip wrote: > Just to make sure, if merged Kemintri plays Closed Session during a referendum, does she get her Justicar votes ? > > [LSJ 20050131] says no, > This ruling was reversed by LSJ in 2006 and 2007: groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/vSOt2c1uRzQ/9z_ElnsKuvUJ groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/6TRdODRGIkg/eanvevsNqYsJ So the Closed Session sees Kemintiri as a Camarilla vampire for the duration of its effect, and doesn't prevent Keminitiri from voting. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director