[Submission] !Tremere and Thaumaturgy cards

Infernal Jury Cardtype: Ally Clan: Tremere antitribu Unique demon with 3 life. 0 bleed, 0 strength. You get +3 votes during referendums. Relocation Cardtype: Action modifier Discipline: Thaumaturgy [tha] +1 stealth. [THA] Only usable during an undirected action. +2 stealth. Forcefield Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Thaumaturgy Only usable before range is determined. [tha] Put this card in play. During each round before range is determined, add 1 counter on this card. You can burn 1 counter from this card to have a strike or damaging effect made against this vampire inflict 1 less damage. Burn this card at the end of combat. [THA] As above, but this card is put in play with 1 counter. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

The first two I like a lot. Not too powerful and I really like political angle for !Tremeres. Forecefield might be on the weaker side, perhaps? I'm not quite sure. Perhaps if sup effect would be to last a bit longer (like until the next untap phase).

> Kiddo wrote: > The first two I like a lot. Not too powerful and I really like political angle for !Tremeres. > > Forecefield might be on the weaker side, perhaps? I'm not quite sure. Perhaps if sup effect would be to last a bit longer (like until the next untap phase). > Well, it opens possibilities such as Weather Control or a simple Trap. I didn't want it to be better than Apparition for instance. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Infernal Jury > Cardtype: Ally > Clan: Tremere antitribu > Unique demon with 3 life. 0 bleed, 0 strength. > You get +3 votes during referendums. > Should cost either 1 pool (to be in line with Ventrue HQ or baali infernal servitor) or x (up to three) blood to have X amount of votes. Also whether or not it's "fair" to have a ally that's worth a Justicar/Cardinal/Prisci block in entirity for every vote without tapping like the Ventrue HQ is something I'm not quite so sure. Especially when it says referendum and blood hunts are referendums. Now if the clan in question didn't have easy access to aggravated damage that is either unpreventable or auto-torpor with Rötschreck it might be fair. And amaranth was not a disciplineless card. But as that's not the case it might be prudent to change to +3 votes during political actions or lock to get +3 votes during referendum, if the referendum ties (rules have concept of a tied referendum) do not unlock the Infernal Jury normally during your next untap phase (hung jury). Or if more flavour is needed have the referendum start again on tied referendum to signify how certain nations have a retrial on hung jury cases. I'm sure the blocked bewitching votecapper is happy to play none of their action modifiers again as it's still the same action... while the Infernal Jury either can or cannot provide their votes again. > Ankha wrote: > Relocation > Cardtype: Action modifier > Discipline: Thaumaturgy > [tha] +1 stealth. > [THA] Only usable during an undirected action. +2 stealth. > Before Mirror Walk it could be argued that Dom/Tha/Aus had stealth weakness, then it was printed and suddenly being blocked was not so bad anymore. Hence I see no problem with this even if it grants DOM/tha bleeders access to bleed 6 with +2 stealth. That might get disciplineless Pack Tactics and Elder intervention see some play for decks that cannot bounce it onward. It's also beyond the scope of early Imbued(without locations or unmasking) or outside the Ally horde (unmasking only) decks. If the new Malks will be Dom+Obf instead Dementation, I see no reason to have this as well. > Ankha wrote: > Forcefield > Cardtype: Combat > Discipline: Thaumaturgy > Only usable before range is determined. > [tha] Put this card in play. During each round before range is determined, add 1 counter on this card. You can burn 1 counter from this card to have a strike or damaging effect made against this vampire inflict 1 less damage. Burn this card at the end of combat. > [THA] As above, but this card is put in play with 1 counter. > > Kiddo wrote: > Forecefield might be on the weaker side, perhaps? I'm not quite sure. Perhaps if sup effect would be to last a bit longer (like until the next untap phase). > On the contrary, the Forcefield is too potent, as it reduces the damage, meaning it can handle damage that is considered unpreventable and grants each turn a superior version of a glancing blow that is replaced when played to a discipline that has hard time dealing with aggro poke otherwise. What's more it means the previous two disciplines superior Dawn operation+Weather control/Burst of Sunlight + Skin of Night followed by Amaranth gets tuned down to be turn 1 superior thaumaturgy trick with three cards and one disclipline. Glancing blow specifies opposing minion's strike so it won't work against your own inferior Burst. For a discipline with famed mechanic to supposedly press and have powerful second round, this card provides two damage reductions. On round 1 it provides 0 with inferior, 1 with superior. On round 3 it provides 3. Does not scale quite like the weather control. If I'm honest, I would be fine with the card if it was prevent against enemy sources (strikes or enviromental) during combat. As while it can be argued thematically that the blood used (oh wait it does not use blood) to create the shield blocks the burst of sunlight from the candle at the controller, how it also affects cards like; > Name: Psychic Assault > [SoC:C] > Cardtype: Combat > Discipline: Auspex > [aus] Strike: 1R damage. Any effect which would make damage from this strike aggravated leaves the damage normal instead. If this striking vampire is Black Hand, the damage from this strike is unpreventable. > [AUS] As above, but for 2R damage. > Artist: Heather Kreiter > > or > > Name: Drawing Out the Beast > [Jyhad:C, VTES:C, SW:PT, FN:PR, CE:C, Anarchs:PG2, BH:PN3, Third:PTz3] > Cardtype: Combat > Discipline: Animalism > Only usable before range is determined on the first round. Frenzy. > [ani] During this combat, opposing vampire gets +1 strength, but he or she cannot use maneuvers to maneuver to long range, cannot use presses to end combat and cannot use equipment. A vampire may play only one Drawing Out the Beast each combat. > [ANI] As above, and the opposing vampire takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each round. > Artist: Bryon Wackwitz > Where the unpreventable damage is used to show something that happens inside the vampire or minion to a higher degree of damage. For Weather control it's the same, very few vampires like to have miniature lightning in their nervous system. So yeah, prevent, from opposing sources and I'm fine if it's upped to work like Weather control meaning the amount of counters on it increases each turn, meaning superior 1 on first turn, (x)+2 on the second, (x)+3 on the third etc where (x) marks the various amounts of counters left from the previous rounds. It might encourage people to play more press thaumaturgy. Whatever you do do not make it last longer, as that opens cheap Rutor's hand kind of shenigans if one has managed to gather counters on it as nothing in it's current text limits the usage to combat only, it specifically says "You can burn 1 counter from this card to have a strike or damaging effect made against this vampire inflict 1 less damage." To my understanding inferior Rutor's hand 1 aggr is damage source. As is shattering crescendo and so forth. The Current champion of reducing damage, Nephandus, has their power limited to be inside combat only and only for opposing minion. I can predict it was somewhat inspirational but for pointed things this is too superior compared to Nephandi's ability. Then again I might be wrong, perhaps what this game needs is more Dawn operation, Weather control, Forcefield (and amaranth) combat. People already love the Domain of Evernight, Outside the hourglass (and amaranth) combat. The Weakness of not having votes to prevent burn for True Brujah on the diablerie is also handled with the earlier card... Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

> Ankha wrote: > Forcefield > Cardtype: Combat > Discipline: Thaumaturgy > Only usable before range is determined. > [tha] Put this card in play. During each round before range is determined, add 1 counter on this card. You can burn 1 counter from this card to have a strike or damaging effect made against this vampire inflict 1 less damage. Burn this card at the end of combat. > [THA] As above, but this card is put in play with 1 counter. > > Kilrauko wrote: > On the contrary, the Forcefield is too potent, as it reduces the damage, meaning it can handle damage that is considered unpreventable and grants each turn a superior version of a glancing blow that is replaced when played to a discipline that has hard time dealing with aggro poke otherwise. What's more it means the previous two disciplines superior Dawn operation+Weather control/Burst of Sunlight + Skin of Night followed by Amaranth gets tuned down to be turn 1 superior thaumaturgy trick with three cards and one disclipline. Glancing blow specifies opposing minion's strike so it won't work against your own inferior Burst. > well put, Kilrauko. I also have concerns about having what is essentially damage prevention without technically being damage prevention. > Kilrauko wrote: > For a discipline with famed mechanic to supposedly press and have powerful second round, this card provides two damage reductions. On round 1 it provides 0 with inferior, 1 with superior. On round 3 it provides 3. Does not scale quite like the weather control. If I'm honest, I would be fine with the card if it was prevent against enemy sources (strikes or enviromental) during combat. As while it can be argued thematically that the blood used (oh wait it does not use blood) to create the shield blocks the burst of sunlight from the candle at the controller, how it also affects cards like; > Also, correct me if i'm wrong, but the card is put into play during the so-called "Pre-Range" step, and can still have a counter placed on it because it's still that same timing window. I can play a blood doll and use it immediately because it's still my master phase after I play it. this is the same thing, right? Personally, I think I would rather see something like this: Forcefield Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Thaumaturgy Only usable before range is determined. [tha] Put this card in play with three counters. You may burn a counter to cancel a Maneuver used by an opposing minion. Burn this card at the end of combat. [THA] As above, but you may also burn a counter to cancel a Press. I think that mucking around with maneuvers and presses gives more of a 'force field-y' feeling to the card. Also, it provides more flexibility without being a flood of maneuvers itself.

> self wrote: > Forcefield > Cardtype: Combat > Discipline: Thaumaturgy > Only usable before range is determined. > [tha] Put this card in play with three counters. You may burn a counter to cancel a Maneuver used by an opposing minion. Burn this card at the end of combat. > [THA] As above, but you may also burn a counter to cancel a Press. > > I think that mucking around with maneuvers and presses gives more of a 'force field-y' feeling to the card. Also, it provides more flexibility without being a flood of maneuvers itself. > That sound more like celerity effect. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

using force fields to keep someone from moving sounds like a celerity effect to you? that's why it cancels maneuvers, not provides them. to each their own, i guess.

> Ankha wrote: > > Infernal Jury > Cardtype: Ally > Clan: Tremere antitribu > Unique demon with 3 life. 0 bleed, 0 strength. > You get +3 votes during referendums. > > Relocation > Cardtype: Action modifier > Discipline: Thaumaturgy > [tha] +1 stealth. > [THA] Only usable during an undirected action. +2 stealth. > This is terribly disappointing card design. Barely does anything unique or interesting, doesn't explore any new design space, is hardly creative. VTES has the framework to do all of these cool things with it's cards, the core of the game being great, but the card design itself is lackluster and uninspired, and I really think it's one of the reasons this game has faltered in the past. And cards like yours are part of the problem. Here, watch me create some new Nosferatu cards: > > LivesByProxy wrote: > > Nosferatu Action Modifier > +1 bleed and +1 stealth > +2 bleed > > Nosferatu Ally > Costs 1 Pool. 1 Life, 0 Strength, 1 Bleed. > Aren't those creative? Don't they inspire players to make new decks? Aren't they exploring new and cool design space? I am being sarcastic, of course. It doesn't. You're just blurring the lines between clans and disciplines. You're making the clans more homogenized. Previously the !Tremere had to work harder than some clans to get actions through, but if your idea of "supporting the creation of new deck ideas and archetypes" is to just let them do what other clans have historically done, I don't see a bright future for this game. If you're going to give clans similar effects, at least do it in a way that is conditionally distinct; mechanically and thematically representative of the discipline / clan. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

Infernal Jury Cardtype: Retainer Clan: Tremere antitribu Unique demon with 3 life During a political action, you can burn a blood to get +3 votes during the referendum. Relocation Cardtype: Action modifier Discipline: Thaumaturgy Cost: 1 blood [tha] +1 stealth, not usable during a bleed action. [THA] As above, but with +2 stealth. Forcefield Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Thaumaturgy Cost: X Only usable before range is determined, only one forcefield can be played each combat. [tha] Put x counters in this card, each round you burn a counter to prevent 1 non agravated damage. [THA] As above, but agravated damage too, when the combat ends you gain 1 blood for each counter in this card. Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

> Sambomb wrote: > Infernal Jury > Cardtype: Retainer > Clan: Tremere antitribu > Unique demon with 3 life > During a political action, you can burn a blood to get +3 votes during the referendum. > You have no blood. You have pool. Vampires have blood, allies have life. Who exactly burn what ? > Sambomb wrote: > Relocation > Cardtype: Action modifier > Discipline: Thaumaturgy > Cost: 1 blood > [tha] +1 stealth, not usable during a bleed action. > [THA] As above, but with +2 stealth. > Not a fan, but way more fair than initial draft. > Sambomb wrote: > Forcefield > Cardtype: Combat > Discipline: Thaumaturgy > Cost: X > Only usable before range is determined, only one forcefield can be played each combat. > [tha] Put x counters in this card, each round you may burn a the counter to prevent 1 non aggravated damage. > [THA] As above, but aggravated damage too, when the combat ends you gain 1 blood for each counter in this card. > Nice with cost reduction. But overall it's not very good at inferior, superior is better but also it's not giving you any free prevent. Maybe with X+1, or being able to use it twice each turn it could be playable outside aggro-poke protection. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > Infernal Jury > > Cardtype: Ally > > Clan: Tremere antitribu > > Unique demon with 3 life. 0 bleed, 0 strength. > > You get +3 votes during referendums. > > > > Relocation > > Cardtype: Action modifier > > Discipline: Thaumaturgy > > [tha] +1 stealth. > > [THA] Only usable during an undirected action. +2 stealth. > > > This is terribly disappointing card design. Barely does anything unique or interesting, doesn't explore any new design space, is hardly creative. > I disagree. It gives options to !Tremere for political decks. There are some interesting titled vampires: Malgorzata, Orlando, Ladislath Toth... You can add in some other titled vampires with Thaumaturgy such as Polly Kay Ficher etc. The stealth is an enabler for calling votes. > LivesByProxy wrote: > VTES has the framework to do all of these cool things with it's cards, the core of the game being great, but the card design itself is lackluster and uninspired, and I really think it's one of the reasons this game has faltered in the past. > So you say. > LivesByProxy wrote: > And cards like yours are part of the problem. > How my imaginary cards are part of a "real problem"? > LivesByProxy wrote: > Here, watch me create some new Nosferatu cards: > > > > LivesByProxy wrote: > > > > Nosferatu Action Modifier > > +1 bleed and +1 stealth > > +2 bleed > > > > Nosferatu Ally > > Costs 1 Pool. 1 Life, 0 Strength, 1 Bleed. > > > Aren't those creative? Don't they inspire players to make new decks? Aren't they exploring new and cool design space? > The ally is definitively not, but you already know it. I don't know how you can in all honesty compare it to my proposal. > I am being sarcastic, of course. It doesn't. > Sarcastic, but just for the sake of it. Made out of bad faith, a criticism isn't constructive. > LivesByProxy wrote: > You're just blurring the lines between clans and disciplines. You're making the clans more homogenized. Previously the !Tremere had to work harder than some clans to get actions through, but if your idea of "supporting the creation of new deck ideas and archetypes" is to just let them do what other clans have historically done, > They'll still have to work harder. It's still sub-par to Obfuscate. It just moves the cursor to "nigh unplayable" to "maybe viable, at least doable". This is acceptable IMHO. Just like Resist Earth't Grasp adds some stealth to Celerity, I still haven't seen a CEL-DOM bleed stealth deck taking over OBF-DOM or OBF-DEM... > If you're going to give clans similar effects, at least do it in a way that is conditionally distinct; mechanically and thematically representative of the discipline / clan. > It is conditionally distinct for the stealth. As for the ally, giving 3 votes as a unique ally to a clan that doesn't really have access to Presence (contrary to the Ventrue who have the HQ, or the FoS who have Ferraille, or the Lasombra who have a crypt for that) isn't a breaking change. They'll still be inferior in that domain to other decks. If you're sticking to "Ventrue do political actions", we're already done with all the cards with have. Basically, we don't need any new card. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

When it comes to !Tremere and politics, I don't think that access to votes is the primary problem (at least for g3-4, and mainly thanks to Orlando). The problems are, especially when compared to other Sabbat clans with political aspirations (like Lasombra) is access to stealth (Mirror Walk helps, but is very predictable - max 2 stealth, without counting stealth locations, none of which are clan-based), compromise between political actions and bleed modifiers (which is fair, IMO, but not an issue g2 Lasombras have, due to inherent +bleed abilities (and yes, two !Trem 9-caps have +bleed, but only one, Orlando, is likely to see play) and, for me a biggest issue - lack of truly good political actions which would make me play Sabbat politics instead of Camarilla or even Independent. I've played a lot of !Tremere political decks but have never ever even considered bringing one to a tournament, because they are outclassed in almost every way by any other decent political deck, and amount of votes is the only issue they don't have.

A review: Infernal Jury Cardtype: Retainer Clan: Tremere antitribu Unique demon with 3 life During a political action the employer can burn a blood to get +3 votes during the referendum. Relocation Cardtype: Action modifier Discipline: Thaumaturgy Cost: 1 blood [tha] +1 stealth, not usable during a bleed action. [THA] Only usable during an undirected action. +2 stealth. Forcefield Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Thaumaturgy Cost: X Only usable before range is determined, only one forcefield can be played each combat. [tha] Put X counters in this card, each round you burn may burn 1 counter to prevent 1 damage. [THA] As above, but up to 2 counters per round. When the combat ends you gain 1 blood for each counter in this card. Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

> Ankha wrote: > How my imaginary cards are part of a "real problem"? > You're part of Black Chantry, aren't you? If so, presumably you'd have some influence in creating new cards. You say that it gives options, but the design is boring. It's an ally that sits there granting passive votes, not interacting with players. You dont even tap it for votes, it just promotes vote locking the table. It could be much more interesting and proactively interact with the table. As for the stealth card, is that the only way we can think of to get actions through? Just giving it +stealth? Again, its disappointing. I hoped for more creative solutions. I actually like the Forcefield card though, because it is interesting. It should probably only prevent ranged damage though. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > How my imaginary cards are part of a "real problem"? > > > You're part of Black Chantry, aren't you? If so, presumably you'd have some influence in creating new cards. > To be totally clear: I don't. I leave that to the design team (otherwise, I wouldn't be posting in this part of the forum). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

How about just making a THA stealth card, not usable on bleed actions? Or non-D actions, not to be too similar to Forgotten Labyrinth? Like +1/+2, no cost. Not too exciting, but quite useful. This should solve the very possible problem of giving another stealth option to a clan with Dominate. I'd also like to see a THA-based Political card, not unlike what DoC got. This could be a bit more powerful card than a regular KRC/Boon/whatever, but could give a bit of flavor to political angle, especially to clan(s) with no Presence.

Infernal Jury Trumps Ventrue HQ as it doesn't need to be tapped (sure it does need to be recruited) and is free. No thank you! Relocation More stealth to Thaumaturgy? Please, no. Just no! Wasn't Mirror Walk enough? Forcefield At zero cost sounds like the card wants to outperform Fortitude. Which would be kinda silly in damage prevention department, wouldn't it? And Thaumaturgy already has Rego Motus which has a cost. Lastly, these weren't answered and at least the last one is important bit here... Art notes: World of Darkness reference: How does this card address a compelling game need?: Finnish Politics!