Hi,
since a lot of "continue combat effects/cards" questions have been asked lately, here is another one for clarity's sake:
Can a superior Psyche! (or something similar) be played in a combat that is ended by Legacy of Power?
> Name: Legacy of Power
> Cardtype: Reaction
> Cost: 3 blood
> Requires a ready prince, justicar or Inner Circle member.
> Only usable when another vampire you control enters combat. Lock this reacting vampire and end combat. Each of the vampires involved in that combat goes to torpor.
>
> Name: Psyche!
> Cardtype: Combat
> Discipline: Celerity
> [cel] Press.
> [CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.
>
Thanks in advance!
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> Hakuron wrote:
> Can a superior Psyche! (or something similar) be played in a combat that is ended by Legacy of Power?
>
Yes.
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/9Ui7pesvu5g/P4p-nKZa6lQJ
> LSJ wrote:
> > #3. Does a Psyche! played in response to a Legacy of Power prevent both
> > vampires from going to torpor?
> Yes. It should probably not (LoP "should" just send the two to torpor and let
> that event end the combat), but as it written, yeah. Not a problem, though,
> so I don't foresee any errata for this one any time soon.
>
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Arthur wrote:
> Odd. How can a new combat start if both vampires are in torpor?
>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but:
The combat actually starts due to card text. If it said "would enter combat", they wouldn't.
In combat, combat cards can be played. Combat would end when both combatants leave the ready region. However, a queued new combat from Psyche interrupts the 'enter torpor' (or, leaving ready region) with the new combat that ensues. The game state forgets that either would've left the ready region, and commences the new combat instead.
Psyche is still pretty tricky, but many cases are covered in the Card Rulings on VEKN.
Of course, the more case specific examples are covered in the rulings, the better, as Psyche can be one of the trickier cards.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
Legacy of Power is just poorly worded and designed. You're not supposed to be able to play reaction cards during combat, but card text on Legacy of Power overrides that. A wording clean up could prevent that extra bit of strangeness as well and make the card interact properly.
> kschaefer wrote:
> Legacy of Power is just poorly worded and designed. You're not supposed to be able to play reaction cards during combat, but card text on Legacy of Power overrides that. A wording clean up could prevent that extra bit of strangeness as well and make the card interact properly.
>
Well, Obedience is not a combat card, either. The only difference to Legacy of Power is that it is played by a vampire not involved directly.
> Name: Obedience
> Cardtype: Reaction
> Discipline: Dominate
> Only usable {if} this vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire.
> ...
>
> Name: Legacy of Power
> Cardtype: Reaction
> Cost: 3 blood
> Requires a ready prince, justicar or Inner Circle member.
> Only usable when another vampire you control enters combat. ...
>
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> Hakuron wrote:
> Well, Obedience is not a combat card, either. The only difference to Legacy of Power is that it is played by a vampire not involved directly.
>
> > Name: Obedience
> > Cardtype: Reaction
> > Discipline: Dominate
> > Only usable {if} this vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire.
> > ...
> >
> > Name: Legacy of Power
> > Cardtype: Reaction
> > Cost: 3 blood
> > Requires a ready prince, justicar or Inner Circle member.
> > Only usable when another vampire you control enters combat. ...
> >
Per card text. you are not in combat when playing Obedience.
> kschaefer wrote:
>
> > Hakuron wrote:
> > Well, Obedience is not a combat card, either. The only difference to Legacy of Power is that it is played by a vampire not involved directly.
> >
> > > Name: Obedience
> > > Cardtype: Reaction
> > > Discipline: Dominate
> > > Only usable {if} this vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire.
> > > ...
> > >
> > > Name: Legacy of Power
> > > Cardtype: Reaction
> > > Cost: 3 blood
> > > Requires a ready prince, justicar or Inner Circle member.
> > > Only usable when another vampire you control enters combat. ...
> > >
> > >
> >
> Per card text. you are not in combat when playing Obedience.
>
Nice catch, thanks!
@Ankha: Is this difference in wording meant to be?
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> Hakuron wrote:
>
> @Ankha: Is this difference in wording meant to be?
>
It's just how legacy cards can be different.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Hakuron wrote:
> >
> > @Ankha: Is this difference in wording meant to be?
> >
> It's just how legacy cards can be different.
>
Maybe I left unclear what I had been talking about.
I meant the following difference:
> Name: Obedience
> Only usable {if} this vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire.
> ...
>
> Name: Legacy of Power
> Only usable when another vampire you control enters combat. ...
>
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> Hakuron wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > Hakuron wrote:
> > >
> > > @Ankha: Is this difference in wording meant to be?
> > >
> > It's just how legacy cards can be different.
> >
> Maybe I left unclear what I had been talking about.
> I meant the following difference:
>
> > Name: Obedience
> > Only usable {if} this vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire.
> > ...
> >
> > Name: Legacy of Power
> > Only usable when another vampire you control enters combat. ...
> >
They are not played at the same moment.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Still, Psyche was errated to clean up the timing and avoid cards played outside of their window. By the same rationale, Legacy of Power should be errated to follow the Obedience timing.
By the way: LSJ's ruling is outdated. It is based on the old Psyche that was played after combat. That is not the case anymore. With the new timing, the first question should be whether Psyche is playable at all.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Still, Psyche was errated to clean up the timing and avoid cards played outside of their window. By the same rationale, Legacy of Power should be errated to follow the Obedience timing.
>
> By the way: LSJ's ruling is outdated. It is based on the old Psyche that was played after combat. That is not the case anymore. With the new timing, the first question should be whether Psyche is playable at all.
>
Both cards Legacy of Power and Psyche! are played during combat. Psyche! can be played after Legacy of Power tries to end combat.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Both cards Legacy of Power and Psyche! are played during combat. Psyche! can be played after Legacy of Power tries to end combat.
>
Why is Legacy of Power still considered a reaction card?
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> Hakuron wrote:
> Why is Legacy of Power still considered a reaction card?
>
Because no one knew what the hell they were doing during the Dark Sovereigns era.
> kschaefer wrote:
>
> > Hakuron wrote:
> > Why is Legacy of Power still considered a reaction card?
> >
> Because no one knew what the hell they were doing during the Dark Sovereigns era.
>
Fair and square. But a lot of errata were released, why not adding a new erratum?
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> Hakuron wrote:
> Fair and square. But a lot of errata were released, why not adding a new erratum?
>
Typically, unless things are actually causing havoc or real problems, errata of that sort is often left until a reprint occurs. Other than being slightly weird - being a reaction card played inside combat - Legacy of Power isn't really causing any actual problems at present, because loads of effects end combat while in combat, so we know how to handle it.
Psyche! could cause a variety of of unpleasant weird side effects so it was fixed - but that also occurred at a point when no-one was sure if V:TES would ever see print ever again.