Trifle - After a master is played

With the "recent" changes at bleed modifier and additional strike. Can we keep this line and make the game more about deck building instead of luck? Trifle could be the "limited" version at the master phase action and some cards would be viable if turned at trifle. > > Old wrote: > Trifle: Some master cards are identified as trifles. When a Methuselah plays a trifle (and it isn't canceled), she gains an additional master phase action. For an out-of-turn trifle, she gains a master phase action in her next master phase. A Methuselah can gain only one master phase action from trifles in a given master phase; others act like regular master cards. > New: Trifle: Some master cards are identified as trifles. Once each master phase (if it isn't canceled), a Methuselah can plays a trifle, as an additional master phase action. For an out-of-turn trifle, she uses the trifle as if it is used at her next master phase. Example: Methuselah A, have only one master phase action and a Parthenon in game. During the Master Phase, he can play Academic Hunting Ground, tap the Parthenon, play Chantry and still at the same Master Phase, play a trifle Vessel, that is played as and additional master phase action. Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

Yes please. It would be easier and more consistent i believe. Of course there are things like Giants Blood which could be followed by Villein, and most likely other intersctions where certain cards would be given a major buff. Maybe someone will start listing those? "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Sambomb wrote: > With the "recent" changes at bleed modifier and additional strike. > The changes that were pretty much entirely about reducing the amount of text use, with little to no impact on actual game play or power? I'm not sure how you've got from text clean up to radical power change. > Sambomb wrote: > Can we keep this line and make the game more about deck building instead of luck? > People choosing to include trifles in their deck is about deck building. Of course, there will always be some luck when particular combos come to light, but that happens all over the place - playing my wake then drawing a bounce is super handy too. If there are specific cards that you think are problematic, then they may warrant attention. But if your worry is about (hypothetically) Giant's Blood and Villein, or Villein generally, then I'm not sure that making Aye, Orun, Striga and Maleficia horrifically difficult to play is the right way to fix that. Nor am I sure that Cadet, Coven, or Corporal Reservoir need to be made extremely hard to play. What is the problem you're actually trying to fix? It could be addressed with a card fix (if it's too powerful). It could be addressed with a more nuanced rules fix. > Sambomb wrote: > For an out-of-turn trifle, she uses the trifle as if it is used at her next master phase. > I'm not 100% sure what this means in practice. I have a Parthenon in play. I play Wash. In my master phase, am I now obligated to tap the Parthenon for the Wash? What happens if, before my turn, the Parthenon is burned or stolen or otherwise not mine? What about if I have minions who grant optional additional master phase actions (e.g. Isanwayen, Huitzilopochtli)?

From what I understand, the OP suggestion is about being able to play your first Trifle after another master card, even if you don't have any MPA left. Or, to put it differently: the first trifle master card wouldn't count against your MPA limit. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > From what I understand, the OP suggestion is about being able to play your first Trifle after another master card, even if you don't have any MPA left. > Or, to put it differently: the first trifle master card wouldn't count against your MPA limit. > Which, in fairness, would follow the design chance in Bleed modifiers, which had to be played in a specific order before the Limited change. There are more changes in balance in the suggested Trifle change, however. The Limited changes in balance were minor at best. That said, I think I'll need to start playing Trujah again... "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Ankha wrote: > From what I understand, the OP suggestion is about being able to play your first Trifle after another master card, even if you don't have any MPA left. > Or, to put it differently: the first trifle master card wouldn't count against your MPA limit. > Yes! > jamesatzephyr wrote: > What is the problem you're actually trying to fix? It could be addressed with a card fix (if it's too powerful). It could be addressed with a more nuanced rules fix. > I want a simple rule that you can relate to other rules in the system. Play a trifle once per turn to go gain another MPA is the actual rule, but like the bleed modifier that dont count at the bleed modifier limit ( Leverage for example ) now you can play it at any order. "The first trifle master card wouldn't count against your MPA limit" is easier to understand and follow the same pattern. I want to be able to whenever it is possible, to don't be restricted to a specific order of cards. If you already can play Villein, then play Giants Blood why not Giants Blood and then Villein? By the way, giants blood is one card per game and cant be abused and with the 5 blood limit with villein its even harder to abuse. Other trifle cards dont care too much about the order and have the same power level and effect if you play before or after the normal master. Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

> Sambomb wrote: > If you already can play Villein, then play Giants Blood why not Giants Blood and then Villein? > ... > I want to be able to whenever it is possible, to don't be restricted to a specific order of cards. > If I play Engling Fury at SPI ("The acting vampire gains 2 blood and unlocks.") and then Social Charm, I can take two actions with the same minion. If I only draw Social Charm first, I can only take one action with that minion. If I play Seduction and draw Conditioning, I can play them both on this action. If I play Conditioning and draw Seduction, I can't. If I have a wake and draw into some intercept, I can play them both. If I have intercept and would draw into the wake, I can't play either. If I have a maneuver and I draw into Thrown Sewer Lid, I can play both. The other way round, neither. If I play my Undead Strength and draw into my Immortal Grapple, I can't shut my opponent's about-to-be-declared weapon strike off. The other way round, I could. The game is stuffed with situations where two cards, even two cards of the same type, have to be played in a specific order, and if you draw them in a 'bad' order, that sucks but it's just how the game works. It's not obvious to me why trifles need changing but every other situation where this happens doesn't.

If the changes are done and text in Wash is not changed, it results in methuselah playing the "free" trifle gaining extra MPA. If we go with "first trifle not counting against MPA" wording that is. Being old card having it's text and mechanics changed to take into account free trifles, perhaps in this way; Name: Wash [Third:U, LotN:PS, KoT:U, SP:LB1] Cardtype: Master Out-of-turn. Trifle. Do not replace until your unlock phase. Cancel a master card played by your predator or prey as it is played, and its cost is not paid. That Methuselah gets +1 master phase action immediately if the card they played was not a trifle, or at the start of their next master phase if the canceled card is an out-of-turn master that was not a trifle. And naturally to get into the current effect where Sudden reversal can disrupt a MPA away from player there needs to be inclusion of -1MPA in it's text if the suddened card is a trifle, like so. After all compare current Villein that gets Suddened to the suggested "does not count against MPA" Villein that gets Suddened. In the first one there is 0 MPA left, in the suggested there is 1 MPA. Name: Sudden Reversal [Jyhad:U, VTES:U, Sabbat:U, SW:U/PV, CE:U, Anarchs:PAB2/PAG, KMW:PAl, LoB:PA/PG/PI, HttB:PKia, SP:DoF1/PwN2, FB:PM1] Cardtype: Master Out-of-turn. Cancel a master card played by another Methuselah as it is played, and its cost is not paid.That Methuselah gets -1 master phase action immediately if the cancelled master was a trifle. Thankfully we do not have lots of new cards around in preconstructed decks, 2 out of 10 is acceptable and I'm sure first blood demo games benefit from the "yeah the card says it works like that but actually..." If this is done without balancing cancel card texts, it will cause issues with current starter decks and games, namely reducing effectiveness of cancel cards up to hilarious level (giving +1 MPA to enemy.) I understand the spirit of the notion, and while I do not agree with it's current suggested form (due to the balance changes I listed) I am not opposed to it if those balance changes are addressed. When playing oust game with any deck I wish to ensure my prey does not Villein + Villein even that 5 pool pull if I pay the price by holding a cancel master in my hand for oust. If they wish to ensure it, they need to play MPA archetype deck to ensure getting the second Villein off if first one is cancelled. I'm all for making more clear game for new players, I just fail to see how this version of wording "does not count against MPA" or "one trifle free" or any variant that does not tie it to taking away MPA achieves it in a fashion that does not disrupt existing MPA balance. Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

Good points. Maybe: Trifle: Once per turn, you can play a Trifle before or after a master phase action, this effect could not be used if you don't have a master phase action. Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

You can on the other hand play trifle after your oot master, which make them a lot better. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.