Main question (happened two days ago in a casual game) :
After a minion schedules a combat by striking Blissful Agony at superior VAL, can the opposing player play Relentless Reaper at superior THN (assuming there's blood to burn to make use of the effect) to make the scheduled combat void?
Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?
Were I judging a case like this in a tournament, I would rule that you can't play Relentless Reaper, because of the existing general ruling (combat section) [RTR 20020501], but that seems to be an incomplete answer.
I will explain what I mean by incomplete in a jiffy:
Here is the general ruling from 2002, combat section:
An effect which would cause (a new) combat cannot be used if there is already a pending combat queued. [RTR 20020501]
Links to groups-beta.google.com/groups?selm=3CD0043D.410398C1%40white-wolf.com
What about that (a new) part? Is it reminder text? It it a clarification? Does causing combat include both Relentless Reaper and Telepathic Tracking, which technically extend an already existing combat, but could be said to cause more combat?
If you read the linked email from LSJ, the line preceding the quoted sentence at the ruling is about interrupting scheduled effects, and it gives equivalence to effects that extend combat (ie RR or TT) and those that shedule a new one (psyche, blissful agony, etc):
>
> If an effect resolves and sets up an effect to be resolved later (e.g.,
> Undead Persistence's torpor effect or Siren's Lure's combat), then the
> effect will not be canceled by "interruptions" (extending combat/starting
> combat/etc.).
>
The bolded part of the quoted text is what implies the equivalence.
Given this context, we return to the sentence of the ruling, to the question of why "(a new)" is in brackets. If (a new) means a mandatory condition, then it shouldn't be in brackets. We have two interpretations, as the ruling is currently written:
1) If the [RTR 20020501] is meant to cover only effects that schedule a new combat (Psyche, Blissful Agony, Marie-Pierre, Fast Reaction, etc) and their interactions with each other, removing brackets would remove the confusion.
2) If the [RTR 20020501] covers all similar effects, including Relentless Reaper and Telepathic Tracking, I'd suggest adding an unambiguous addition to the ruling.
Perhaps rewording it into "Neither an effect which would cause a new combat, nor extend the existing combat can be used if there is already a pending combat queued." would work?
There is no ruling in General Rulings or Card Rulings for Psyche, Blissful Agony, Telepathic Tracking nor Relentless Reaper that clarifies this case.
But, if you're Relentless enough, you can find a forum post by Pascal Bertrand, when Psyche's window of opportunity was changed:
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/16788#16794
This is in 2011, and there are no rulings mentioning this, nor does the post reference any rulings itself (meaning that according to the tournament rulebook it has no bearing on the rules of the game until it becomes an official ruling - as per 2.1. of Tournament Rules) :
>
> > >what happens if the acting minion plays a Psyche, then the reacting plays Telepathic Tracking?
> >
> A new round of combat will happen (TT's "combat does not end"). Psyche!'s "start a new combat after this round" effect is lost (as much as Rotschreck's "send that vampire to torpor after combat has ended" is lost)
>
Is this 2011 post correct?
That would mean that since Telepathic Tracking can void a scheduled combat by Psyche, it should also be able to void a scheduled combat by Blissful Agony, same with Relentless Reaper.
Since the 2011 post talks about "as much as Rotschreck's", we can see that the Rötschreck ruling is in the very same email from LSJ - [RTR 20020501] (linked above) . There, it specifically is said:
>
> Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the
> single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a
> new combat is started.
>
How can Psyche be beaten by Telepathic Tracking "as much as Rotschreck's" when there's no direct equivalence? Psyche is not an effect that ends combat and does something else after combat. Psyche resolves as it is played, and a new combat is scheduled (caused). Why can TT be played? Is it not covered by the original [RTR 20020501], about causing new combats?
If Pascal's post is an active ruling, then general ruling [RTR 20020501] should be updated to not have brackets, as to leave room for Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper (and other future cards with the same effect) to trump over already scheduled combats.
Also, Pascal's ruling of TT trumping Psyche should be included in the general rulings, allowing all combat continuation effects to trump over all new combat scheduling effects. Current rulings on Rötschreck and Psyche do not cover this exact case, unless by huge leaps of logic.
If Pascal's 2011 post is not a ruling, but rather a misleading interpretation, then please consider rewording the general ruling about combat [RTR 20020501] to lose the ambiguity.
I have suggested "Neither an effect which would cause a new combat, nor extend the existing combat can be used if there is already a pending combat queued." but I am not a native speaker, and it might be put more eloquently without the ambiguity.
Still, Blissful Agony is an effect that ends combat and then does something else after combat. Remember that LSJ email? That's the bit that didn't get written into any general rulings, but if it applies, Blissful Agony surely is covered by such a definition.
So... Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Blissful Agony?
Seems like yes, if the whole LSJ email applies in 2018, even while only parts of it are used for rulings. Or no, if the part about scheduled combats applies to RR.
Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?
I would say no, but Pascal's post disagrees. Not yet an official ruling. Eager to find out the truth, and hopefully at least get a glimpse to the reasoning and the rulings that support it.
++++
CARD TEXTS
++++
Blissful Agony
Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Valeren/Animalism [ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. [val] Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during strike resolution each round this combat when the range is close. A vampire may play only one Blissful Agony at [val] each combat. [VAL] Strike: combat ends. Choose a minion controlled by a Methuselah other than the opposing vampire's controller. The opposing vampire enters combat with that minion.
Relentless Reaper
Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Thanatosis/Fortitude [for] Prevent 1 damage. [thn] Press. [THN] Only usable if both combatants are still ready and combat would end. Instead, burn 1 blood to start a new round.
Identical wording as Relentress Reaper, so same ruling would apply.
Telepathic Tracking
Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Auspex [aus] Press, only usable to continue combat. If another round of combat occurs, this vampire gets 1 optional maneuver that round. [AUS] Only usable {if} both combatants are still ready and combat would end. {Instead,} start a new round{}.
Mentioned as an effect that shedules a combat
Marie-Pierre
Name: [LK:2] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Samedi Group: 6 Capacity: 4 Discipline: for nec THN Independent: Marie-Pierre can lock after a combat involving another Samedi you control to enter combat with the opposing minion. She cannot block older vampires.
Mentioned as an effect that schedules combat
Fast Reaction
Cardtype: Reaction Discipline: Auspex Only usable after a combat between a blocking minion you control other than this vampire and the acting minion. [aus] Lock this vampire. This vampire enters combat with the acting minion. The first round of this new combat, the acting minion cannot strike. [AUS] As above, with an optional press.
Mentioned in a relevant ruling:
Rötschreck
Cardtype: Master Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy. Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. During this vampire's next unlock phase, burn this card.
A combat card that schedules a combat:
Psyche!
Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Celerity [cel] Press. [CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.
Logic is for the weak.
> Nauro wrote:
> Main question (happened two days ago in a casual game) :
> After a minion schedules a combat by striking Blissful Agony at superior VAL, can the opposing player play Relentless Reaper at superior THN (assuming there's blood to burn to make use of the effect) to make the scheduled combat void?
> Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?
>
You can play Relentless Reaper. The Relentless Reaper continuation of the current combat prevents the new combat from ever happening.
You cannot play Relentless Reaper in response to Psyche! since the window for playing Psyche! is after the window for playing Relentless Reaper. "is about to end" is later than "would end".
Just to make sure, you are suggesting we have several windows for impulse, one for "is about to end", one for "would end" and also need to check anything at the end of round for "would end" and "is about to end" and have to go asking for that at each and every end multiple times rather than just one clean window just so card X would never precede card Y?
Dunno man, seems excessive and not solving any problems of balance or clarity.
Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.
> kschaefer wrote:
>
> > Nauro wrote:
> > Main question (happened two days ago in a casual game) :
> > After a minion schedules a combat by striking Blissful Agony at superior VAL, can the opposing player play Relentless Reaper at superior THN (assuming there's blood to burn to make use of the effect) to make the scheduled combat void?
> > Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?
> >
> You can play Relentless Reaper. The Relentless Reaper continuation of the current combat prevents the new combat from ever happening.
>
> You cannot play Relentless Reaper in response to Psyche! since the window for playing Psyche! is after the window for playing Relentless Reaper. "is about to end" is later than "would end".
>
Correct on both points.
> Nauro wrote:
> Here is the general ruling from 2002, combat section:
> An effect which would cause (a new) combat cannot be used if there is already a pending combat queued. [RTR 20020501]
> Links to groups-beta.google.com/groups?selm=3CD0043D.410398C1%40white-wolf.com
>
> What about that (a new) part? Is it reminder text? It it a clarification?
>
The rule is that you cannot queue a combat if there's already a combat queued. "(a new)" just means "even if the effect that would cause a combat happens during an already ongoing combat, we're not talking about the same combat".
> Nauro wrote:
> Does causing combat include both Relentless Reaper and Telepathic Tracking, which technically extend an already existing combat, but could be said to cause more combat?
>
No. "causing" = "starting" here.
> Nauro wrote:
> If you read the linked email from LSJ, the line preceding the quoted sentence at the ruling is about interrupting scheduled effects, and it gives equivalence to effects that extend combat (ie RR or TT) and those that shedule a new one (psyche, blissful agony, etc):
> >
> > If an effect resolves and sets up an effect to be resolved later (e.g.,
> > Undead Persistence's torpor effect or Siren's Lure's combat), then the
> > effect will not be canceled by "interruptions" (extending combat/starting
> > combat/etc.).
> >
Be careful, because if a Siren's Lure combat is queued, you cannot play a Psyche! during the first combat (groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/onifuBHTSbU/HUWYEcDaLDQJ).
> Nauro wrote:
> The bolded part of the quoted text is what implies the equivalence.
>
> Given this context, we return to the sentence of the ruling, to the question of why "(a new)" is in brackets. If (a new) means a mandatory condition, then it shouldn't be in brackets. We have two interpretations, as the ruling is currently written:
>
> 1) If the [RTR 20020501] is meant to cover only effects that schedule a new combat (Psyche, Blissful Agony, Marie-Pierre, Fast Reaction, etc) and their interactions with each other, removing brackets would remove the confusion.
>
"A new combat" doesn't mean much if there is no ongoing combat (eg. you cannot play Siren's Lure twice).
> Nauro wrote:
> 2) If the [RTR 20020501] covers all similar effects, including Relentless Reaper and Telepathic Tracking, I'd suggest adding an unambiguous addition to the ruling.
> Perhaps rewording it into "Neither an effect which would cause a new combat, nor extend the existing combat can be used if there is already a pending combat queued." would work?
>
It doesn't, so moot.
> Nauro wrote:
> There is no ruling in General Rulings or Card Rulings for Psyche, Blissful Agony, Telepathic Tracking nor Relentless Reaper that clarifies this case.
>
> But, if you're Relentless enough, you can find a forum post by Pascal Bertrand, when Psyche's window of opportunity was changed:
> www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/16788#16794
> This is in 2011, and there are no rulings mentioning this, nor does the post reference any rulings itself (meaning that according to the tournament rulebook it has no bearing on the rules of the game until it becomes an official ruling - as per 2.1. of Tournament Rules) :
> >
> > > >what happens if the acting minion plays a Psyche, then the reacting plays Telepathic Tracking?
> > >
> > A new round of combat will happen (TT's "combat does not end"). Psyche!'s "start a new combat after this round" effect is lost (as much as Rotschreck's "send that vampire to torpor after combat has ended" is lost)
> >
> Is this 2011 post correct?
>
It is no longer correct. Psyche! and Telepathic Tracking now have different windows. You cannot play Telepathic Tracking once the "would end" window is closed. Psyche! is played in the "about to end" window, which occurs after.
I'll update that topic for easier reference.
> Nauro wrote:
> That would mean that since Telepathic Tracking can void a scheduled combat by Psyche, it should also be able to void a scheduled combat by Blissful Agony, same with Relentless Reaper.
>
Moot.
> Nauro wrote:
> Since the 2011 post talks about "as much as Rotschreck's", we can see that the Rötschreck ruling is in the very same email from LSJ - [RTR 20020501] (linked above) . There, it specifically is said:
> >
> > Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the
> > single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a
> > new combat is started.
> >
> How can Psyche be beaten by Telepathic Tracking "as much as Rotschreck's" when there's no direct equivalence? Psyche is not an effect that ends combat and does something else after combat. Psyche resolves as it is played, and a new combat is scheduled (caused). Why can TT be played? Is it not covered by the original [RTR 20020501], about causing new combats?
>
Moot.
> Nauro wrote:
> If Pascal's post is an active ruling, then general ruling [RTR 20020501] should be updated to not have brackets, as to leave room for Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper (and other future cards with the same effect) to trump over already scheduled combats.
> Also, Pascal's ruling of TT trumping Psyche should be included in the general rulings, allowing all combat continuation effects to trump over all new combat scheduling effects. Current rulings on Rötschreck and Psyche do not cover this exact case, unless by huge leaps of logic.
>
Moot.
> Nauro wrote:
> If Pascal's 2011 post is not a ruling, but rather a misleading interpretation, then please consider rewording the general ruling about combat [RTR 20020501] to lose the ambiguity.
> I have suggested "Neither an effect which would cause a new combat, nor extend the existing combat can be used if there is already a pending combat queued." but I am not a native speaker, and it might be put more eloquently without the ambiguity.
>
Moot (this is wrong, you can "extend" the combat).
> Nauro wrote:
> Still, Blissful Agony is an effect that ends combat and then does something else after combat. Remember that LSJ email? That's the bit that didn't get written into any general rulings, but if it applies, Blissful Agony surely is covered by such a definition.
>
> So... Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Blissful Agony?
> Seems like yes, if the whole LSJ email applies in 2018, even while only parts of it are used for rulings.
>
Correct.
> Nauro wrote:
> Or no, if the part about scheduled combats applies to RR.
>
> Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?
> I would say no, but Pascal's post disagrees. Not yet an official ruling. Eager to find out the truth, and hopefully at least get a glimpse to the reasoning and the rulings that support it.
>
You cannot, it's too late.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
So, for clarity: we have the general rule "you cannot queue a combat if there's already a combat queued".
So, Blissful Agony does not count as a queued combat, since it first ends combat and then does X (where X happens to be new combat)? Because of this, you can apparently play Relentless Reaper, Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking etc to continue combat or start a new combat (which cancels BA's combat).
Siren's Lure *does* count as a queued combat, so you cannot play Reaper, Psyche, Telepathic Tracking etc after it has been played? Or are some of those legal play and some not?
I find this whole thing extremely confusing and hard to understand, tbh.
Some clear, unambiguous explanation of this would be very welcome.
> PetriWessman wrote:
> So, for clarity: we have the general rule "you cannot queue a combat if there's already a combat queued".
>
Correct.
> PetriWessman wrote:
> So, Blissful Agony does not count as a queued combat, since it first ends combat and then does X (where X happens to be new combat)?
>
Blissful Agony DOES queue a combat, after the current combat ends, if nothing interrupts it.
> PetriWessman wrote:
> Because of this, you can apparently play Relentless Reaper, Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking etc to continue combat or start a new combat (which cancels BA's combat).
>
Relentless Reaper, Telepathic Tracking and Psyche! interrupts the effect of Blissful Agony.
EDIT: you cannot play Psyche! because Blissful Agony's combat is a lingering effect, not something happening in the "resolution of the effect" (see below).
Since BA already queues a combat, Psyche! cannot queue a combat.
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/GZI8NXQ76d0/cNf4G7ZGl1MJ
> PetriWessman wrote:
> Siren's Lure *does* count as a queued combat
>
Correct.
> PetriWessman wrote:
> , so you cannot play Reaper, Psyche, Telepathic Tracking etc after it has been played?
>
No, only Psyche! is forbidden. RR and TT don't queue any combat.
To sum it up:
A combat cannot be queued if there is already a combat queued. Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a new combat is started. Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper replaces the end of a combat by a new round, so they don't count as "queuing up a new combat": they can be played if a Siren's Lure has queued a combat. Psyche! is played when the combat is about to end to queue a new combat. It cannot be played if another combat is already queued (eg., Siren's Lure, Blissful Agony). Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper are played before Psyche! could be played, and since the combat is no longer ending, Psyche! cannot be played.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> A combat cannot be queued if there is already a combat queued. Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a new combat is started. Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper replaces the end of a combat by a new round, so they don't count as "queuing up a new combat": they can be played if a Siren's Lure has queued a combat. Psyche! is played when the combat is about to end to queue a new combat. It cannot be played if another combat is already queued (eg., Siren's Lure). Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper are played before Psyche! could be played, and since the combat is no longer ending, Psyche! cannot be played.
>
This is a very useful list, which I would appreciate was included as is in the General Rulings tab on VEKN.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
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Ankha
1) you say in this topic: Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?
I would say no, but Pascal's post disagrees. Not yet an official ruling. Eager to find out the truth, and hopefully at least get a glimpse to the reasoning and the rulings that support it.
You cannot, it's too late.
but there in me topic from 2018 : www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/76990-correct-order-impulse-for-combat-cards-after-combat?start=0
beslin igor wrote: how resolve Psyche vs Telepathic Tracking if posible play these cards in same window with diferent vampires(i mean A play one R other card)
You can't play Psyche! after a Telepathic Tracking has been played, since the combat is no longer ending.
You can play Telepathic Tracking after Psyche! has been played. Psyche! queues a new combat, but TT makes the first combat continue. So the first combat will continue, and the extra combat created by Psyche! will never take place (it is "disrupted" by TT).
(I beleive to TT and RR are totaly same cards and need to works in same way.)
2) you say here: Relentless Reaper, Telepathic Tracking and Psyche! interrupts the effect of Blissful Agony.
But I will copy from card rulings: Psyche!:
Superior cannot be played if there is already a combat queued (with, for example, Blissful Agony) [RTR 20020501]
(If that no more corect answer maybe need to be changed there too because can confuse people!)
And Siren's Lure vs Psyche!
Siren's Lure say once action resolve,and if I understand good action resolve after multiple combat(example replace Bum Rush you can replace after multiple combat,after Freak Drive),so how cannot play Psyche before resolution Siren's Lure?
Name: Siren's Lure
[BL:R1, LoB:R]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Melpominee/Celerity
[cel] This vampire burns 2 blood to get +1 stealth.
[mel] Only usable by an unlocked ready vampire other than the acting minion when a minion attempts to block. That minion cannot block this action. Lock this vampire and that minion. Once the action resolves, this vampire enters combat with that minion.
[MEL] As [mel] above, but do not lock this modifying vampire.
> beslin wrote:
> Ankha
> 1) you say in this topic: Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?
> I would say no, but Pascal's post disagrees. Not yet an official ruling. Eager to find out the truth, and hopefully at least get a glimpse to the reasoning and the rulings that support it.
>
> You cannot, it's too late.
>
> but there in me topic from 2018 : www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/76990-correct-order-impulse-for-combat-cards-after-combat?start=0
>
> beslin igor wrote: how resolve Psyche vs Telepathic Tracking if posible play these cards in same window with diferent vampires(i mean A play one R other card)
>
> You can't play Psyche! after a Telepathic Tracking has been played, since the combat is no longer ending.
> You can play Telepathic Tracking after Psyche! has been played. Psyche! queues a new combat, but TT makes the first combat continue. So the first combat will continue, and the extra combat created by Psyche! will never take place (it is "disrupted" by TT).
>
The last sentence is a mistake, good catch. I fixed it in the post you quote.
way.)
> beslin wrote:
> 2) you say here: Relentless Reaper, Telepathic Tracking and Psyche! interrupts the effect of Blissful Agony.
>
> But I will copy from card rulings: Psyche!:
> Superior cannot be played if there is already a combat queued (with, for example, Blissful Agony) [RTR 20020501]
> (If that no more corect answer maybe need to be changed there too because can confuse people!)
>
Yes, I made another mistake: you cannot play Psyche! to interrupt BA.
The reason is that Psyche! queues a combat, and BA has already queued a combat. So you cannot play Psyche! in the first place (you still can play TT and RR, and BA's combat would be lost).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Ankha can you explain this scenario,you maybe missed this me comment:
And Siren's Lure vs Psyche!
Siren's Lure say once action resolve,and if I understand good action resolve after multiple combat(example replace Bum Rush you can replace after multiple combat,after Freak Drive),so how cannot play Psyche before resolution Siren's Lure?
Name: Siren's Lure
[BL:R1, LoB:R]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Melpominee/Celerity
[cel] This vampire burns 2 blood to get +1 stealth.
[mel] Only usable by an unlocked ready vampire other than the acting minion when a minion attempts to block. That minion cannot block this action. Lock this vampire and that minion. Once the action resolves, this vampire enters combat with that minion.
[MEL] As [mel] above, but do not lock this modifying vampire.
> Ankha wrote:
> A combat cannot be queued if there is already a combat queued. Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a new combat is started. Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper replaces the end of a combat by a new round, so they don't count as "queuing up a new combat": they can be played if a Siren's Lure has queued a combat. Psyche! is played when the combat is about to end to queue a new combat. It cannot be played if another combat is already queued (eg., Siren's Lure, Blissful Agony). Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper are played before Psyche! could be played, and since the combat is no longer ending, Psyche! cannot be played.
>
This is just what I was looking for, thanks! Saving this in my private rules notes...
My confusion was mostly from thinking that TT / RR were queuing a combat, when they actually don't count as doing that (continuing current combat is a different thing).