Can I play more than one master out of turn per Synesios special text?
Why can't I borrow more than one m.p.a.?
M.o.o.t. should gain the reminder "limited"?
Normally only one m.o.o.t. is allowed by rulebook:
1.6.2. Master Cards
Master cards are cards you play in your role as a Methuselah. There are two types of master cards: out-of-turn and the regular master cards. Some types of regular master cards are: locations and Disciplines (and there are other regular master cards that don't have a specific type). Regular master cards are played during your master phase. You can normally play only one regular master card during your master phase. Out-of-turn master cards can be played during other players' turns. By playing an out-of-turn master card, you are effectively "borrowing" from your next master phase -- that is, playing the card now instead of waiting until your next master phase.
and
4.Out-of-turn: You may play an out-of-turn master card whenever appropriate during another player's turn. Doing so counts against your next master phase, even if the Out-of-turn master card is cancelled (see Master Phase, sec. 5). You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase. You cannot play an out-of-turn master card on your own turn.
Relevant card text:
Name: Synesios
Rarity: R2
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: True Brujah
Capacity: 8
Discipline: obf ser POT PRE TEM
Independent: Synesios has two votes. You may pay a pool when you play a Master: Out-of-Turn card to gain an extra master phase action in your next master phase. Synesios cannot use cards that require Celerity. Scarce.
Best regards! And bleed responsibly
> vragozakas wrote:
> Can I play more than one master out of turn per Synesios special text?
>
No
> vragozakas wrote:
> Why can't I borrow more than one m.p.a.?
>
Rulebook. "You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase."
> vragozakas wrote:
> M.o.o.t. should gain the reminder "limited"?
>
Why should them?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > vragozakas wrote:
> > Can I play more than one master out of turn per Synesios special text?
> >
> No
>
> > vragozakas wrote:
> > Why can't I borrow more than one m.p.a.?
> >
> Rulebook. "You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase."
>
I don't think there is any confusion since Synesios clearly says "your NEXT master phase" (ie. it only counteracts the MPA lost by playing an out-of-turn master). It also says "AN extra MPA", implying only one extra master phase action per turn.
However you are also referring to rules text, where as the golden rule states that card text > rules. I don't think its very good idea to claim that rules are stronger than card text in general since they aren't. Rather we must examine why the card text of Synesios does not allow what Vragozakas implied.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
> However you are also referring to rules text, where as the golden rule states that card text > rules. I don't think its very good idea to claim that rules are stronger than card text in general since they aren't.
>
Card text will trump the rules, as per the Golden Rule for Cards, where the card text contradicts / is incompatible with the rules text. Where card text mucks around in a particular area, it doesn't completely overturn all rule text in that area - just whatever it doesn't work with. Since the rules say ""You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase", and nothing on Synesios's card text says otherwise, the rule continues to apply.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Card text will trump the rules, as per the Golden Rule for Cards, where the card text contradicts / is incompatible with the rules text. Where card text mucks around in a particular area, it doesn't completely overturn all rule text in that area - just whatever it doesn't work with. Since the rules say ""You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase", and nothing on Synesios's card text says otherwise, the rule continues to apply.
>
Which is why I pointed out that the key here was Synesios' text, not the rulebook text, since card text trumps the rules.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > vragozakas wrote:
> > Can I play more than one master out of turn per Synesios special text?
> >
> No
>
Was predicting so
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > vragozakas wrote:
> > Why can't I borrow more than one m.p.a.?
> >
> Rulebook. "You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase."
>
This is strange, because it's not a direct reply to my question.
We currently play in a game environment wich allows players to play 2/3 masters phase action per turn, wich is kind of boring (i.m.o.). Synesios is a minion wich could completely trump this behavior with his special, if only there wasn't a rule that for no significant reason disallows more than one m.o.o.t. per round.
The general reasoning behind the m.o.o.t. limit is that you "borrow" your next m.p.a., that is why deck like anson/cybele/nana can't play 2-3 m.o.o.t., there is no guarantee that minion with that special will be around on next master phase.
Synesios's special doesen't work that way, he restore's owner m.p.a. right away, there's a great deck here (i.m.h.o.) trumped by a rule made in a time when cybelotron wasen't an issue.
> Anka wrote:
>
> > vragozakas wrote:
> > M.o.o.t. should gain the reminder "limited"?
> >
> Why should them?
>
As a reminder, of a piece of rules text that is long 13 words drowned in a document that is really long and non so easy to remember in its totality.
> vragozakas wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > vragozakas wrote:
> > > Can I play more than one master out of turn per Synesios special text?
> > >
> > No
> >
> Was predicting so
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > vragozakas wrote:
> > > Why can't I borrow more than one m.p.a.?
> > >
> > Rulebook. "You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase."
> >
> This is strange, because it's not a direct reply to my question.
> We currently play in a game environment wich allows players to play 2/3 masters phase action per turn, wich is kind of boring (i.m.o.). Synesios is a minion wich could completely trump this behavior with his special, if only there wasn't a rule that for no significant reason disallows more than one m.o.o.t. per round.
> The general reasoning behind the m.o.o.t. limit is that you "borrow" your next m.p.a., that is why deck like anson/cybele/nana can't play 2-3 m.o.o.t., there is no guarantee that minion with that special will be around on next master phase.
> Synesios's special doesen't work that way, he restore's owner m.p.a. right away, there's a great deck here (i.m.h.o.) trumped by a rule made in a time when cybelotron wasen't an issue.|/quote]
> "could completely" and "general reasoning behind the moot limit..." are not related to rule, rather to game design. In this topic, we're answering rule questions, not "what if" questions, sorry.
>
> > Anka wrote:
> >
> > > vragozakas wrote:
> > > M.o.o.t. should gain the reminder "limited"?
> > >
> > Why should them?
> >
> As a reminder, of a piece of rules text that is long 13 words drowned in a document that is really long and non so easy to remember in its totality.
>
It's a bad idea to put a reminder text on a trait that is already clearly defined in the rulebook.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> vragozakas wrote:
> Synesios's special doesen't work that way, he restore's owner m.p.a. right away, there's a great deck here (i.m.h.o.) trumped by a rule made in a time when cybelotron wasen't an issue.
>
No he doesn't. Are you actually reading Synesios' card text?
He says you gain an MPA during your NEXT master phase. You cannot play an out-of-turn (even if you could play multiple MooTs) if you don't have a master phase action to spend. The master phase action gain is not immediate as you claim it to be. You cannot spend something you don't have yet.
ps. Synesios and 30 suddens doesn't seem like it should be a thing.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
> No he doesn't. Are you actually reading Synesios' card text?
>
> He says you gain an MPA during your NEXT master phase. You cannot play an out-of-turn (even if you could play multiple MooTs) if you don't have a master phase action to spend. The master phase action gain is not immediate as you claim it to be. You cannot spend something you don't have yet.
>
> Synesios wrote:
> Name: Synesios
> [BL:R2]
> Cardtype: Vampire
> Clan: True Brujah
> Group: 2
> Capacity: 8
> Discipline: obf ser POT PRE TEM
> Independent: Synesios has 2 votes (titled). You may pay a pool when you play a Master: Out-of-Turn card to gain an extra master phase action in your next master phase. Synesios cannot use cards that require Celerity [cel]. Scarce.
> Artist: Durwin Talon
>
Relevant card text: pay 1 pool when You play a m.o.o.t. to gain 1 extra m.p.a. in you next master phase. Once you have paid, next turn you'll gain a mpa, as usual during the master phase. I can't see the difference You're pointing out.
>
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Out-of-turn master cards can be played during other players' turns. By playing an out-of-turn master card, you are effectively "borrowing" from your next master phase -- that is, playing the card now instead of waiting until your next master phase.
>
In bold important text.
> ps. Synesios and 30 suddens doesn't seem like it should be a thing.
>
p.s. not even to me, I don't think I've ever suggested a deck like that, whit that card count. But if this are all your's deckbuilding skills and imagination, I hope we met someday at some tournament
> vragozakas wrote:
> Relevant card text: pay 1 pool when You play a m.o.o.t. to gain 1 extra m.p.a. in you next master phase. Once you have paid, next turn you'll gain a mpa, as usual during the master phase. I can't see the difference You're pointing out.
>
You have steady income source, it happens monthly. Something special happens and you call your bank whether or not you can loan them the cash in advance, they know it's a steady source and agree. That's the Master out of turn.
Then you decide to have your friends/family/whoever pay the loaned sum on your next payday. That's the pool cost of Synesios. You have your salary incoming, that's going to the bank, and then some loaned money you used social credit (pool) for.
Then you call your bank again and ask, "hey, remember how you loaned me money for my next paycheck, can you loan me again?" The Bank says no because you've already done that. You then claim your friends/family/whoever is paying you next month, the bank doesn't care as the transaction won't show on their end before it happens. As you don't own the "sure" money yet. Feel free to argue with them whether or not "it's the same thing" and they can provide in greater detail why there's difference between cash in hand and cash promised to be in hand sometime in the future.
That's why there's importance whether Synesios gives the Master phase action right away, or when it comes your next master phase, in VTES, you might be ousted before that ever happens hence you might pay the 1 pool for nothing, just like in real life trusting your friends, family or whoever that they'll certainly cover your next month. Bank won't take that chance and neither does the design of Synesios.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
> vragozakas wrote:
> In bold important text.
>
In a normal situation with no cards played, you have a MPA in your next master phase. Therefore you can play an out-of-turn master, "borrowing" from your next master phase.
If you have Synesios in play, and play an out-of-turn master out of turn, you don't have a MPA in your next master phase. You will GAIN MPA only after you have actually proceeded to your next master phase. Before your next turn, you can't "borrow" what isn't there.
This is my rationale for why Synesios' ability doesn't stack. You don't prematurely gain an MPA. You will gain it only during your next turn. Its a delayed trigger, like we say in Magic.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
> If you have Synesios in play, and play an out-of-turn master out of turn, you don't have a MPA in your next master phase. You will GAIN MPA only after you have actually proceeded to your next master phase. Before your next turn, you can't "borrow" what isn't there.
> This is my rationale for why Synesios' ability doesn't stack. You don't prematurely gain an MPA. You will gain it only during your next turn. Its a delayed trigger, like we say in Magic.
>
> Kilrauko wrote:
> That's why there's importance whether Synesios gives the Master phase action right away, or when it comes your next master phase, in VTES, you might be ousted before that ever happens hence you might pay the 1 pool for nothing, just like in real life trusting your friends, family or whoever that they'll certainly cover your next month. Bank won't take that chance and neither does the design of Synesios.
>
Thanks for this replies, You're helping me understand vtes even further. I still fail to notice the difference between:
>
> rulebook wrote:
> 5. Master Phase
> You receive master phase actions during your master phase. A master phase action represents your personal activity during the turn as a Methuselah.
>
And
>
> that wrote:
> Name: Synesios
> [BL:R2]
> Cardtype: Vampire
> Clan: True Brujah
> Group: 2
> Capacity: 8
> Discipline: obf ser POT PRE TEM
> Independent: Synesios has 2 votes (titled). You may pay a pool when you play a Master: Out-of-Turn card to gain an extra master phase action in your next master phase. Synesios cannot use cards that require Celerity [cel]. Scarce.
> Artist: Durwin Talon
>
The verb is gain rather then receive, but I think they're synonyms. I think the examples with bank account are more similar to the anson/cybele/nana/parthenon type of cards. You should have some more mpas on your master phase, if they are still around. Synesios is a way to grant you 1 mpa when you should gain that mpa.
The only thing that right now makes me doubt of my own reasoning is the adjective "extra" in Synesios card text, but this can be relevant only if the cost of a moot is a "natural/original/standard" m.p.a., not a "extra" mpa.
I don't want to sound stubborn, and I know all of this is a sort of scy/fy-vtes, but nonetheless is a nice exercise for the comprehension of rules and mechanics of this game.
> vragozakas wrote:
> I still fail to notice the difference between:
>
You seem fixated on the verb. Don't.
Instead, notice the lack of the word NEXT in the rulebook text.
The rulebook refers to your master phase. Synesios refers to your NEXT master phase. How difficult is it to understand that these are not the same? This is a question of timing, not semantics.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> vragozakas wrote:
> Thanks for this replies, You're helping me understand vtes even further. I still fail to notice the difference between:
> >
> > rulebook wrote:
> > 5. Master Phase
> > You receive master phase actions during your master phase. A master phase action represents your personal activity during the turn as a Methuselah.
> >
> And
> >
> > that wrote:
> > Name: Synesios
> > [BL:R2]
> > Cardtype: Vampire
> > Clan: True Brujah
> > Group: 2
> > Capacity: 8
> > Discipline: obf ser POT PRE TEM
> > Independent: Synesios has 2 votes (titled). You may pay a pool when you play a Master: Out-of-Turn card to gain an extra master phase action in your next master phase. Synesios cannot use cards that require Celerity [cel]. Scarce.
> > Artist: Durwin Talon
> >
> The verb is gain rather then receive, but I think they're synonyms. I think the examples with bank account are more similar to the anson/cybele/nana/parthenon type of cards. You should have some more mpas on your master phase, if they are still around. Synesios is a way to grant you 1 mpa when you should gain that mpa.
> The only thing that right now makes me doubt of my own reasoning is the adjective "extra" in Synesios card text, but this can be relevant only if the cost of a moot is a "natural/original/standard" m.p.a., not a "extra" mpa.
>
> I don't want to sound stubborn, and I know all of this is a sort of scy/fy-vtes, but nonetheless is a nice exercise for the comprehension of rules and mechanics of this game.
>
If visualizing it in the mind is difficult, there's no harm in going physical with it. That's the way I personally work the mechanics of trap out, using simple counters.
You need the following.
4 VTES cards with green back (library), to designate the turns.
4 Amber back (crypt) cards to designate where one player turn ends and another turn begins.
One counter type (influence/blood counter) to designate your master phase action that you gain on your own master phase.
Another counter(key, token, dice etc.) to designate played out of turn master card that by rules gives you one less master phase action on the next turn.
The Edge to show where in the line the current turn is happening.
Lay the cards face down with the backs up on the table to form a line in pattern amber, green, amber, green, amber, green, amber, green. For easiness we'll simulate a end game where only two players are left, so first and third turns are yours, second and fourth your prey-predator opponents. Place edge on the first green card to mark it is your first turn.
During your turn's master phase you gain one master phase action (place the counter on the first green card) during your master phase, you either use it don't, either way once your turn ends, it's gone. Remove it from the green card and move the edge to the second green card.
Now is your opponents first turn. You gain no master phase actions and we do not use counters here to mark that your opponent does. They try to play a master card with their action, but you decide to play Sudden Reversal out of turn master to cancel it. Place the second type counter(key, dice) on the second green card to designate that you played master out of turn on your opponents turn. Now you also use Synesios ability "You may pay a pool when you play a Master: Out-of-Turn card to gain an extra master phase action in your next master phase." Note where the edge is at this very moment. It's on the second green backed card, noting it's not your turn, it's your opponents turn, therefore we are not "in your next master phase" and do not place the master phase action counter yet on the third green card on the line. Eventually the turn ends and we move the edge to the third green backed card.
At this point, your line with cards, counters and edge should look like following; amber, green, amber, green (master out of turn counter), amber, green (edge), amber, green.
Your second turn in this example begins. By the rules when master phase happens;
"If you've played an out-of-turn master card against this master phase (even if it was cancelled), then you gain one fewer master phase actions than normal (see Master Cards, sec. 1.6.2)."
You have counter on the second green card noting you've played master out of turn since your last turn. Instead adding the first type of counter we used on turn one to indicate master phase action, remove the master out of turn counter from second green card. You would have zero master phase actions normally. However you paid 1 pool for Synesios ability when you played out of turn master, as it is now your next turn after it was paid, you gain that master phase action. Place one master phase action counter on the third green card. You can play mastes as normally with it. You either use it don't, either way once your turn ends, it's gone. Remove it from the third green card and move the edge to the fourth green card.
It is now your opponets second turn. For the purpose of how Synesios interaction with master phase actions and timing the example is done.
I really think going the trouble of laying some crypt and library cards and performing the above example helps to understand how it works. Just like using three counters on Trap card as a pool that's refreshed when cards are played does. There's massive difference between being stubborn for stubborness sake and just failing to notice the difference. I think if you perform the physical example I laid out in this reply you'll see what the difference is.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Why is this thread still going on? Per the rulebook, with emphasized text:
>
> Out-of-turn: You may play an out-of-turn master card whenever appropriate during another player's turn. Doing so counts against your next master phase, even if the Out-of-turn master card is cancelled (see Master Phase, sec. 5). You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase. You cannot play an out-of-turn master card on your own turn.
>
> kschaefer wrote:
> Why is this thread still going on? Per the rulebook, with emphasized text:
>
In the first page, on the second reply by OP the reason has been given.
> vragozakas wrote:
> We currently play in a game environment wich allows players to play 2/3 masters phase action per turn, wich is kind of boring (i.m.o.). Synesios is a minion wich could completely trump this behavior with his special, if only there wasn't a rule that for no significant reason disallows more than one m.o.o.t. per round.
> The general reasoning behind the m.o.o.t. limit is that you "borrow" your next m.p.a., that is why deck like anson/cybele/nana can't play 2-3 m.o.o.t., there is no guarantee that minion with that special will be around on next master phase.
> Synesios's special doesen't work that way, he restore's owner m.p.a. right away, there's a great deck here (i.m.h.o.) trumped by a rule made in a time when cybelotron wasen't an issue.
>
After that it's been attempt to clarify how their understanding on Synerios working is different from how it factually works. Hopefully this highlight of the earlier reply on this thread answered your question.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
> Kilrauko wrote:
>
> > vragozakas wrote:
> > Synesios's special doesen't work that way, he restore's owner m.p.a. right away, there's a great deck here (i.m.h.o.) trumped by a rule made in a time when cybelotron wasen't an issue.
> >
> After that it's been attempt to clarify how their understanding on Synerios working is different from how it factually works. Hopefully this highlight of the earlier reply on this thread answered your question.
>
That rule was probably in Jyhad, but I only have a VtES edition rulebook handy and it's in there. They could have given Synesios the ability to grant additional out-of-turn masters when he was created, but the designers did not.
If your desire is for Synesios to be "better" to help against these MMPA decks, then you're focusing in the wrong direction. Buffing cards like Synesios does nothing; MMPA is the problem and you have to fix it at the root by eliminating the problematic situations/combinations.
> kschaefer wrote:
> That rule was probably in Jyhad, but I only have a VtES edition rulebook handy and it's in there. They could have given Synesios the ability to grant additional out-of-turn masters when he was created, but the designers did not.
>
> If your desire is for Synesios to be "better" to help against these MMPA decks, then you're focusing in the wrong direction. Buffing cards like Synesios does nothing; MMPA is the problem and you have to fix it at the root by eliminating the problematic situations/combinations.
>
additionally, if the problem is MMPA, the solution is probably not more MMPA.
> Kilrauko wrote:
> I really think going the trouble of laying some crypt and library cards and performing the above example helps to understand how it works. Just like using three counters on Trap card as a pool that's refreshed when cards are played does. There's massive difference between being stubborn for stubborness sake and just failing to notice the difference. I think if you perform the physical example I laid out in this reply you'll see what the difference is.
>
Ding! You made it! I really like going physical, and I frequently use a dice for Trap purposes
I don't know why, but I always liked Synesios, maybe for the art of the card, or his paired with a couple of votes. His special never impressed me; it's nice, but not at the level of Maris Streck or Antonio d'Erlette. Currently building a deck around him anyway.
As for mmpa, I'm not a big fan of that archetype, but I think is a strong one, and something to deal with during tournaments, so i thought of suddens/wash and power of all (in a deck that doesn't use red cards).