I'm sure the question has been asked and answered, but I can't find it, so I'm asking again.
1. Can I use Anu Diptinatpa's special ability during a Justicar Retribution referendum to cause a vampire (who would otherwise have only a 2 bleed) to burn?
2. If no to number 1, could I do it during the action to call the vote, before it becomes a referendum?
3. If yes to number 1, what is the latest timing window of the referendum in which I could activate her ability such that the affected vampire would still be burnt as a result?
I did look through the forums, and found the following quote from Vincent on a thread entitled Justicar Retribution. It hints that the answer to 1 may be no, but does not say authoritatively if it is to be ruled that way:
"Action modifiers cards that increase the bleed can't be played on non-bleed actions because their cardtexts forbid it.
Action modifiers cards that give votes can't be played on non-political actions because their cardtexts forbid it.
Action modifiers cards and other effects (e.g., Backways) that increase the stealth can't be played or used when not necessary because the rulebook forbids it.
Reaction cards that increase the intercept (e.g. KRCG News Radio) can't be played or used when not necessary because the rulebook forbids it.
There is probably a loophole here because increasing the bleed on a non-bleed action is not covered by the rules nor the cardtexts for other sources (e.g., Anu Diptinatpa, or Prejudice).
I believe it makes more sense to forbid it, rather than allowing it.
The only vampire for which it makes sense is Andre Leroux because his +2 bleed bonus lasts for the whole turn, and it is designed to work so."
Anyhow, thanks much for reading. I'm sure there will be many opinions, but what I'm looking for is either an official ruling made here or a link to an existing ruling for this question.
Thank you!
-Bill Troxel (aka, Killiam -- that's "William", but with more Killing)
Name: Anu Diptinatpa
[HttB:U/A2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Nagaraja
Group: 6
Capacity: 7
Discipline: aus vic DOM NEC
Independent: During an action, Anu can burn 1 blood to give any minion +1 bleed. Scarce.
Name: Justicar Retribution
[VTES:U, CE:U, KoT:U]
Cardtype: Political Action
Requires a Camarilla vampire.
Successful referendum burns all vampires with a current bleed of 3 or more.
-Killiam
(Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from
Look at the woman I've become
And the strangest things seem
Suddenly routine"
-Hedwig Robinson
Afaik you can't increase bleed during a non bleed action either by modifiers or cards abilities (see alvusia)
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
Just searched this forum under rulings for keyword Alvusia; the only hit I got was your comment.
Is there a ruling you have a link for that says you cannot use Alvusia during Justicar Retribution? That would be super helpful.
If you look at the quote I pasted from Vincent, it seems that there was no ruling against increasing bleed through Anu's special on a non-bleed action at the time; the prohibition was against using +bleed action modifiers on non-bleed actions, which is long-standing.
I'm looking for a ruling that has been made since that would prohibit it.
Thanks,
-Bill
-Killiam
(Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from
Look at the woman I've become
And the strangest things seem
Suddenly routine"
-Hedwig Robinson
> Killiam wrote:
> 1. Can I use Anu Diptinatpa's special ability during a Justicar Retribution referendum to cause a vampire (who would otherwise have only a 2 bleed) to burn?
>
No.
[LSJ 20020106
> LSJ wrote:
> Can't modify a bleed that doesn't exist.
>
James -
The context for the quote you referenced was specific to the use of an action modifier, so LSJ's use of the term "modify" here can be read as "use an action modifier to augment".
I'm not sure that clears it up, unless you are making a specific ruling on the interpretation of this line.
-Killiam
(Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from
Look at the woman I've become
And the strangest things seem
Suddenly routine"
-Hedwig Robinson
Moreover, Anu's special explicitly does not modify a bleed. It modifies a minion.
-Killiam
(Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from
Look at the woman I've become
And the strangest things seem
Suddenly routine"
-Hedwig Robinson
> Killiam wrote:
> I'm sure the question has been asked and answered, but I can't find it, so I'm asking again.
>
> 1. Can I use Anu Diptinatpa's special ability during a Justicar Retribution referendum to cause a vampire (who would otherwise have only a 2 bleed) to burn?
>
No. It's not a bleed action.
> Killiam wrote:
> 2. If no to number 1, could I do it during the action to call the vote, before it becomes a referendum?
>
No, same reason.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Killiam wrote:
> > I'm sure the question has been asked and answered, but I can't find it, so I'm asking again.
> >
> > 1. Can I use Anu Diptinatpa's special ability during a Justicar Retribution referendum to cause a vampire (who would otherwise have only a 2 bleed) to burn?
> >
> No. It's not a bleed action.
>
> > Killiam wrote:
> > 2. If no to number 1, could I do it during the action to call the vote, before it becomes a referendum?
> >
> No, same reason.
>
Can we put this info in Card Rulings section, because its not obvious. Anu doesn't modify the action but a minion itself so standard rule doesn't apply to her
> Tadori wrote:
> [...]
> Can we put this info in Card Rulings section, because its not obvious. Anu doesn't modify the action but a minion itself so standard rule doesn't apply to her
>
It seems more intuitive to me to change/modify Anu's card text.
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Killiam wrote:
> > 1. Can I use Anu Diptinatpa's special ability during a Justicar Retribution referendum to cause a vampire (who would otherwise have only a 2 bleed) to burn?
> >
> No.
>
> [LSJ 20020106
>
> > LSJ wrote:
> > Can't modify a bleed that doesn't exist.
> >
My issue is the wording on Anu, which says "give a minion +1 bleed", not "bleed is at +1 bleed".
I'm fine with the ruling, but once again VTES cards use very ambiguous wordings.
EDIT: I would ALSO be fine with a ruling that bleed amount is an ability of the minion, since we already have plenty vampires who have inherent +x bleed... It would be slightly more intuitive imo.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> >
> > > Killiam wrote:
> > > 1. Can I use Anu Diptinatpa's special ability during a Justicar Retribution referendum to cause a vampire (who would otherwise have only a 2 bleed) to burn?
> > >
> > >
> > No.
> >
> > [LSJ 20020106
> >
> > > LSJ wrote:
> > > Can't modify a bleed that doesn't exist.
> > >
> > >
> >
> My issue is the wording on Anu, which says "give a minion +1 bleed", not "bleed is at +1 bleed".
>
The thing that matters is that Anu gives the bonus "during an action" which is temporary.
"during an action" bleed can only be given to the acting minion during a bleed action.
"during an action" stealth can only be given to the acting minion during an action when stealth is needed.
"during an action" intercept can only be given to a blocking minion during an action when intercept is needed.
Anyway, we'll make Anu's text clearer: "During a bleed action, Anu can burn 1 blood to give the acting minion +1 bleed."
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Awesome. I can see this popping up in the future when new people start doing card - math - magic.
Will we see the new wording in subsequent print runs of Heirs bundles?
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
It's not a personal attack but I think vtes would be better without magic-players-style approach to rules, wording and so on, in search of the perfect ultimate ultra combo (24 hits)
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
> Ankha wrote:
> The thing that matters is that Anu gives the bonus "during an action" which is temporary.
>
> "during an action" bleed can only be given to the acting minion during a bleed action.
> "during an action" stealth can only be given to the acting minion during an action when stealth is needed.
> "during an action" intercept can only be given to a blocking minion during an action when intercept is needed.
>
I don't see a contradiction. Why couldn't Anu give a minion temporary +1 bleed?
Anyway the suggested text is far simpler solution and quite satisfactory.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > The thing that matters is that Anu gives the bonus "during an action" which is temporary.
> >
> > "during an action" bleed can only be given to the acting minion during a bleed action.
> > "during an action" stealth can only be given to the acting minion during an action when stealth is needed.
> > "during an action" intercept can only be given to a blocking minion during an action when intercept is needed.
> >
> I don't see a contradiction. Why couldn't Anu give a minion temporary +1 bleed?
>
Because in the OP it's not a bleed action (also, the minion is not necessarily acting).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
EDIT:
"Anyway, we'll make Anu's text clearer: "During a bleed action, Anu can burn 1 blood to give the acting minion +1 bleed."
Didn't read that at first. It will make it clear.
> Ankha wrote:
>
> Anyway, we'll make Anu's text clearer: "During a bleed action, Anu can burn 1 blood to give the acting minion +1 bleed."
>
After thinking about it should it say "Once during bleed action" because now you can burn 7 blood to get +7 bleed.
Again its not an action modifier(only action cards with proper symbol are) so you can use it multiple time.I looked in the rulebook and can find any rule prohibiting using vamp ability multiple times
> Tadori wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > Anyway, we'll make Anu's text clearer: "During a bleed action, Anu can burn 1 blood to give the acting minion +1 bleed."
> >
> After thinking about it should it say "Once during bleed action" because now you can burn 7 blood to get +7 bleed.
>
No, you can't. In VTES, when there is a 'during x, do y' template, you can do x only once:
“During X, do Y”:
> The “during X do Y” template is used in several cards. When this template is used, only one Y can be done per X with this card. For instance, you may move blood from your vampire to your pool with Vessel only once per untap phase.
>
> Kiddo wrote:
>
> > Tadori wrote:
> >
> > > Ankha wrote:
> > >
> > > Anyway, we'll make Anu's text clearer: "During a bleed action, Anu can burn 1 blood to give the acting minion +1 bleed."
> > >
> > >
> > After thinking about it should it say "Once during bleed action" because now you can burn 7 blood to get +7 bleed.
> >
> No, you can't. In VTES, when there is a 'during x, do y' template, you can do x only once:
>
> “During X, do Y”:
>
> > The “during X do Y” template is used in several cards. When this template is used, only one Y can be done per X with this card. For instance, you may move blood from your vampire to your pool with Vessel only once per untap phase.
> >
Ok I found it in the rulebook thanks but it wasn't easy.
> Ankha wrote:
> Because in the OP it's not a bleed action (also, the minion is not necessarily acting).
>
And herein is the apparent issue: If the +bleed would be modifying the vampire instead of modifying the bleed, Anu could (with the original text) give that minion +1 bleed during for example a vote action. I see no contradiction still. I dont see why it needs to be explicitly forbidden since the act does nothing beneficial... you could burn 1 blood for nothing if you wanted. Even Justicar retribution would not be broken because a.) the vote is extremely situational and doesnt oust anybody b,) Anu can buff only ONE minion anyway during an action. (because of the "during" template)
I am a proponent of "Things are allowed unless they are specifically forbidden" style of rules, because then it is easy to DEDUCE how rules work in some new situation. Keeping the amount of denying rules to a minimum results in a very elegant and logical rule system.
In VTES this principle is not followed, thus leading to very confusing rules and situations, where I cannot deduce how something works, but always have to go "ask a judge", which btw often rule differently because rules are unintuitive.
I get the feeling that often judges invent new restrictions out of thin air because of "common sense" or somesuch. This case is a good example.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech