Hello everyone, a question and discussion that is quite common and recurrent in the playgroups of my region is related to non-voting and abstention.
The rulebook says minions and can vote for or against, but does not talk about abstaining or simply not voting.
Can a player who has declared that he will abstain with his minions change his mind later and change the vote to for or against?
Can a vampire who has not stated how he will vote (neither for, against, nor abstain) be the target of cards like Kindred Coercio, Scalpel Tongue, Velvet Tongue?
Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson
LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer
Prince of Rio de Janeiro
Powerbase Rio de Janeiro
> Sydnelson wrote:
> Hello everyone, a question and discussion that is quite common and recurrent in the playgroups of my region is related to non-voting and abstention.
>
> The rulebook says minions and can vote for or against, but does not talk about abstaining or simply not voting.
>
> Can a player who has declared that he will abstain with his minions change his mind later and change the vote to for or against?
>
6.3.3. Gaining Votes
Methuselahs have no inherent votes nor ballots -- votes and ballots must be gained, and there are a variety of ways to do so. Once gained, a vote or a ballot need not be cast right away, if at all.
That line tells you that the votes dont have to be cast (ie abstain), and that if you dont cast them immediately, you can still wait to cast them later in discussion.
> Sydnelson wrote:
> Can a vampire who has not stated how he will vote (neither for, against, nor abstain) be the target of cards like Kindred Coercio, Scalpel Tongue, Velvet Tongue?
>
If the card says 'target a minion who has cast their votes' it cannot target an abstaining vampire - as they have not cast their votes.
I guess the important thing is that "to abstain" in the sense of "not to cast any votes yet" does not mark actively a specific gamestate, and that votes could still be cast by that vampire. (I was not 100% aware of that.)
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
While this is obviously not by the rules (since abstaining is not a rules term), in my playgroup, when it comes to voting, once you declare that a particular vampire is abstaining, it means that not voting is his final decision (that kinda streamlines the whole ballot process).Of course, we also say that a particular vampire 'will not vote for now', meaning that that vampire can indeed vota later, usually depending on other vampire's votes...
> Kiddo wrote:
> While this is obviously not by the rules (since abstaining is not a rules term), in my playgroup, when it comes to voting, once you declare that a particular vampire is abstaining, it means that not voting is his final decision (that kinda streamlines the whole ballot process).Of course, we also say that a particular vampire 'will not vote for now', meaning that that vampire can indeed vota later, usually depending on other vampire's votes...
>
There's a difference between "abstaining" and "forced to abstain". In the first case, the vampire can cast votes or ballots later. In the second case, the vampire won't be able to cast any votes or ballots.
Some cards "force to abstain", that's why I'm pinpointing the difference.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> narpassword wrote:
> 6.3.3. Gaining Votes
> Methuselahs have no inherent votes nor ballots -- votes and ballots must be gained, and there are a variety of ways to do so. Once gained, a vote or a ballot need not be cast right away, if at all.
>
> That line tells you that the votes dont have to be cast (ie abstain), and that if you dont cast them immediately, you can still wait to cast them later in discussion.
>
To be fair, that line in the rulebook is a mealy-mouthed way to explain that gained votes or ballots do not need to be cast. All that line is saying is that votes or ballots are sometimes not cast at all. It could be referring only to situations where casting votes or ballots are prevented by card text. There's nothing there about being able to not cast gained votes or ballots. I'm guessing this is why the original poster has run into this problem recurrently (I have also run into the same problem, and I was not confident that the rulebook allowed gained votes or ballots to not be cast as currently worded).
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
>
> > narpassword wrote:
> > 6.3.3. Gaining Votes
> > Methuselahs have no inherent votes nor ballots -- votes and ballots must be gained, and there are a variety of ways to do so. Once gained, a vote or a ballot need not be cast right away, if at all.
> >
> > That line tells you that the votes dont have to be cast (ie abstain), and that if you dont cast them immediately, you can still wait to cast them later in discussion.
> >
> To be fair, that line in the rulebook is a mealy-mouthed way to explain that gained votes or ballots do not need to be cast. All that line is saying is that votes or ballots are sometimes not cast at all. It could be referring only to situations where casting votes or ballots are prevented by card text. There's nothing there about being able to not cast gained votes or ballots. I'm guessing this is why the original poster has run into this problem recurrently (I have also run into the same problem, and I was not confident that the rulebook allowed gained votes or ballots to not be cast as currently worded).
>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
could be.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
>
> > narpassword wrote:
> > 6.3.3. Gaining Votes
> > Methuselahs have no inherent votes nor ballots -- votes and ballots must be gained, and there are a variety of ways to do so. Once gained, a vote or a ballot need not be cast right away, if at all.
> >
> > That line tells you that the votes dont have to be cast (ie abstain), and that if you dont cast them immediately, you can still wait to cast them later in discussion.
> >
> To be fair, that line in the rulebook is a mealy-mouthed way to explain that gained votes or ballots do not need to be cast. All that line is saying is that votes or ballots are sometimes not cast at all. It could be referring only to situations where casting votes or ballots are prevented by card text. There's nothing there about being able to not cast gained votes or ballots. I'm guessing this is why the original poster has run into this problem recurrently (I have also run into the same problem, and I was not confident that the rulebook allowed gained votes or ballots to not be cast as currently worded).
>
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
>
> > narpassword wrote:
> > 6.3.3. Gaining Votes
> > Methuselahs have no inherent votes nor ballots -- votes and ballots must be gained, and there are a variety of ways to do so. Once gained, a vote or a ballot need not be cast right away, if at all.
> >
> > That line tells you that the votes dont have to be cast (ie abstain), and that if you dont cast them immediately, you can still wait to cast them later in discussion.
> >
> To be fair, that line in the rulebook is a mealy-mouthed way to explain that gained votes or ballots do not need to be cast. All that line is saying is that votes or ballots are sometimes not cast at all. It could be referring only to situations where casting votes or ballots are prevented by card text. There's nothing there about being able to not cast gained votes or ballots. I'm guessing this is why the original poster has run into this problem recurrently (I have also run into the same problem, and I was not confident that the rulebook allowed gained votes or ballots to not be cast as currently worded).
>
Yeah, I also think the rulebook is a little vague when explaining how to vote or not, besides the text of the cards have diferences that cause doubts such as: superior Kindred Coercio that says if the vampire has not declared the votes he can choosing to abstain and preventing your votes from being changed, as Neferu's text does not say so and suggests that even if the vampire has chosen to abstain she can force him to vote as she pleases.
Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson
LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer
Prince of Rio de Janeiro
Powerbase Rio de Janeiro
> Sydnelson wrote:
> Neferu's text does not say so and suggests that even if the vampire has chosen to abstain she can force him to vote as she pleases.
>
OFFTOPIC:
I have a Neferu/velvet tongue deck, and I have played her assuming that she cannot force a vampire to cast votes. I admit it is bit unclear.
However, I assume that if another vampire casts votes in a referendum called by Neferu, she can play velvet tongue at inferior first to give corruption counter and change that vampires votes on the fly before results are tallied?
ps My Neferu games tend to have the most complex politics ever btw, for those who fancy that sort of thing
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
>
> > Sydnelson wrote:
> > Neferu's text does not say so and suggests that even if the vampire has chosen to abstain she can force him to vote as she pleases.
> >
> OFFTOPIC:
> I have a Neferu/velvet tongue deck, and I have played her assuming that she cannot force a vampire to cast votes. I admit it is bit unclear.
>
Correct.
Neferu
Independent. 2 votes (titled): Once each referendum, Neferu can burn 1 blood to change the votes and ballots of a vampire with any of your corruption counters to votes and ballots of your choice.
She changes the votes and ballots. If no votes or ballots have been cast, she can't change them, so she can't force an abstaining vampire to vote.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> However, I assume that if another vampire casts votes in a referendum called by Neferu, she can play velvet tongue at inferior first to give corruption counter and change that vampires votes on the fly before results are tallied?
>
Yes.
Velvet Tongue
[ser] Only usable during a referendum. Put 1 corruption counter on a minion casting votes or ballots in this referendum.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director