First Tradition and Unlock Phase

After it got mentioned on FB recently, I realized that I don't actually know how First Tradition works since it got errata'd to force players to choose to burn pool or skip their turn during their unlock phase, rather than before the start of their turn. Leaving aside the fact that the current wording seems to result in players killing their own grandparents before they were born any time they'd choose to skip their turn (how can they skip their entire turn if the choice is being made during that turn?), the most common question that would arise is: Since the choice is an unlock phase effect, and all unlock phase effects occur after mandatory unlocking of all cards, does this mean that "skipping his or her entire turn" will still result in their cards being unlocked? First Tradition: The Masquerade Requires a prince or justicar. If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her unlock phase. A Methuselah can choose to skip his or her entire turn. Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect. EDIT: As an aside, I suggest that the word "instead" be inserted after "his or her entire turn." As it currently reads, it looks like you have to burn two pool even if you do choose to skip your turn, since again, skipping their entire turn can only happen if they get to the unlock phase in the first place, and if they're in the unlock phase, they must burn two pool.

> Kushiel wrote: > since it got errata'd to force players to choose to burn pool or skip their turn during their unlock phase, rather than before the start of their turn.. > you dont choose to skip your turn in the unlock phase. you burn your 2 pool in your unlock phase if you ever make it there by choosing to take your turn. > if (turn is Taken) > then: > burn Two Pool > It reads fine to me - but i guess an improvement could be made in ordering - putting the choice at the front with the consequences after. First Tradition: The Masquerade Requires a prince or justicar. If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. A Methuselah can choose to skip his or her entire turn. Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her unlock phase. Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect. /shrug

> narpassword wrote: > > > Kushiel wrote: > > since it got errata'd to force players to choose to burn pool or skip their turn during their unlock phase, rather than before the start of their turn.. > > > you dont choose to skip your turn in the unlock phase. > you burn your 2 pool in your unlock phase if you ever make it there by choosing to take your turn. > > > if (turn is Taken) > > then: > > burn Two Pool > > This card may benefit from a rewrite. I would specifically state when the decision is made. I'd also state the burning pool effect using conditional tense. Hopefully the below rewrite preserves the intended effect. "If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. Any Methuselah can choose to either skip their entire turn or take their turn as normal before their unlock phase. If a Methuselah takes their turn as normal, they must burn 2 pool during their unlock phase. Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect."

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > > "If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. Any Methuselah can choose to either skip their entire turn or take their turn as normal before their unlock phase. If a Methuselah takes their turn as normal, they must burn 2 pool during their unlock phase. Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect." > I choose to take my turn as normal before my unlock phase =p

Sorry, I don't understand your reply. The card text is forcing a dichotomous choice (take your turn or don't take your turn). Both sides of the dichotomy should probably be stated. Should I take your reply to mean that you disagree? It may seem silly to you, and that's fine. But, with a card like First Tradition, which has an effect that disrupts from the normal flow of turns, it's better to be too detailed than not detailed enough. Effects that do this are more jarring to players in practice than as they appear on the card (hence the original post). That's my viewpoint at least.

take my reply to mean 'no matter how much someone thinks they've got the perfect wording, there is still a very high chance someone can misinterpret it' you presented a choice: "choose to either skip their entire turn or take their turn as normal before their unlock phase" choose to: a - skip their entire turn or b - take their turn as normal before their unlock phase

> narpassword wrote: > First Tradition: The Masquerade > Requires a prince or justicar. > If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. A Methuselah can choose to skip his or her entire turn. Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her unlock phase. Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect. > This is a non-fix. 1) Your version still doesn't state when a player can make the decision to skip their turn. 2) If your answer is, "They decide before their turn starts," that's a de-errata, re-introducing the apparently contentious issue of making decisions during a phase that doesn't exist. (I'm not actually sure why the text was ever changed from "While in play, each Methulselah must skip his or her turn or burn two pool," which is much clearer to me.) > narpassword wrote: > take my reply to mean 'no matter how much someone thinks they've got the perfect wording, there is still a very high chance someone can misinterpret it' > > you presented a choice: > > "choose to either skip their entire turn or take their turn as normal before their unlock phase" > > choose to: > a - skip their entire turn > or > b - take their turn as normal before their unlock phase > This is easy to fix: "Before their unlock phase, any Methuselah can choose to either skip their entire turn or take their turn as normal." It also doesn't solve the problem of the phantom "before their unlock phase" issue, though. The only solution to that issue that I can formulate would be to have players decide during their predator's discard phase if they're skipping or paying, which I guess could result in some discard phase trickery, but otherwise seems to keep the intended effect without creating more subphases during (or maybe more to the point, between) anyone's turns. That'd also make the card considerably wordier, though. In any case, mostly I'd just like a ruling/clarification from Ankha that the current card text is still functionally the same as older card text; ie, if you skip your turn, you don't get to unlock your cards.

yea - i wasnt really trying to fix it because it doesnt seem broken at all to me. i see no issue in making a decision before your turn starts. i assume the line "While in play, each Methulselah must skip his or her turn or burn two pool," was changed because that doenst tell you when to burn the pool.

> narpassword wrote: > take my reply to mean 'no matter how much someone thinks they've got the perfect wording, there is still a very high chance someone can misinterpret it' > > you presented a choice: > > "choose to either skip their entire turn or take their turn as normal before their unlock phase" > > choose to: > a - skip their entire turn > or > b - take their turn as normal before their unlock phase > b is actually "[choose to] take their turn..." The bracketed part can be added for clarity or omitted if the meaning is understood (as I've done). I've reworded. "either choose to skip their entire turn or choose to take their turn as normal before their unlock phase"

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > > b is actually "[choose to] take their turn..." The bracketed part can be added for clarity. > Yes - i fully understood your intention. I purposefully interpreted the card incorrectly to demonstrate that all wordings have flaws.

> narpassword wrote: > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > > > b is actually "[choose to] take their turn..." The bracketed part can be added for clarity. > > > Yes - i fully understood your intention. I purposefully interpreted the card incorrectly to demonstrate that all wordings have flaws. > Oh, now I get you. You're playing the contrarian I do agree with you. Nothing is perfect, especially the English language. But this is all really a matter of which wordings will have the highest likelihood of being interpreted correctly. I just think the current wording on First Tradition does no favors to the reader, and I feel like how I've reworded is better. But its definitely not perfect, as you've pointed out.

> narpassword wrote: > i see no issue in making a decision before your turn starts. > Neither do I, but I assume that's why the change was made? I seem to recall people making a fuss about doing stuff in between turns on the newsgroup way back when (which was the same reason that Masika's text was changed). > narpassword wrote: > i assume the line "While in play, each Methulselah must skip his or her turn or burn two pool," was changed because that doenst tell you when to burn the pool. > Ha! Fair enough.

Ankha, sorry to be a pain in the butt about this, but can you please confirm that the functionality of First Tradition hasn't changed with its errata?

Are you really making a deck with first tradition? It isn't even Christmas yet to be spreading so much joy.

> Kushiel wrote: > Ankha, sorry to be a pain in the butt about this, but can you please confirm that the functionality of First Tradition hasn't changed with its errata? > The last change about First Tradition was made in the KoT version. CE version: you had to pay 2 pool in order to take your turn (or skip it). KoT version: you can choose to skip your turn. If you don't, you have to pay 2 pool during your unlock phase (allowing to get some pool from Vessel first). What hasn't changed is that you must make the choice when you would take your turn, and that if you skip your turn, you skip it entirely (you don't unlock your cards for instance). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

yes but the question is still when am I choosing? before your turn is like not a phase or anything. edit: Turns proceed clockwise around the playing area. Each player's turn is composed of the following five phases, in order: 1. Unlock Phase Unlock all your cards. 2. Master Phase Play a master card. 3. Minion Phase Have your minions perform actions. 4. Influence Phase Attempt to control vampires in your uncontrolled region. 5. Discard Phase Discard a card from your hand (and draw another). Per the rulebook these are the phases and we know we can resolve effects in the order the active player chooses. First Tradition: The Masquerade Requires a prince or justicar. If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her unlock phase. A Methuselah can choose to skip his or her entire turn IN HIS PREDATORS DISCARD PHASE. Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect.

> Mewcat wrote: > Are you really making a deck with first tradition? It isn't even Christmas yet to be spreading so much joy. > I've had two written out for a looooooong time now.

> Mewcat wrote: > yes but the question is still when am I choosing? before your turn is like not a phase or anything. > > edit: > > Turns proceed clockwise around the playing area. Each player's turn is composed of the following five phases, in order: > 1. Unlock Phase > Unlock all your cards. > 2. Master Phase > Play a master card. > 3. Minion Phase > Have your minions perform actions. > 4. Influence Phase > Attempt to control vampires in your uncontrolled region. > 5. Discard Phase > Discard a card from your hand (and draw another). > > Per the rulebook these are the phases and we know we can resolve effects in the order the active player chooses. > > First Tradition: The Masquerade > Requires a prince or justicar. > If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her unlock phase. A Methuselah can choose to skip his or her entire turn IN HIS PREDATORS DISCARD PHASE. Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect. > I really don’t think it needs to be specified in what phase the choice is made, but this suggestion doesn’t work regardless. What if my predator skipped their turn?

Good catch lol. The reason that it needs specified is so that we stop hand waving the mechanics of vtes and have things rigorously functional. Vtes is a game without rules and shit tons of rulings. That isn't at all good.

> Mewcat wrote: > yes but the question is still when am I choosing? before your turn is like not a phase or anything. > > Ankha wrote: > What hasn't changed is that you must make the choice when you would take your turn, and that if you skip your turn, you skip it entirely (you don't unlock your cards for instance). > Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I'm not in the mood for equine abuse but... My turn begins with untap. There is no when I would take my turn phase. Be best to say in untap phase, before untapping or any other effects maybe

> Mewcat wrote: > I'm not in the mood for equine abuse but... > > My turn begins with untap. > So you have taken your turn. > Mewcat wrote: > There is no when I would take my turn phase. > Yes there is. When the previous turn ends ("is it my turn?" or "It's your turn" depending on who's speaking), it is your turn, or at least it would be your turn if you had chosen not to skip it. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Here's how I interpret "when you would take your turn": (1) There exists an opportunity for a player to choose to take their turn when First Tradition is in play between the end of one turn and the start of the next turn (before initiating the next turn's unlock phase). (2) There exists an opportunity for a player to choose to take their turn when First Tradition is in play during their turn's unlock phase (before doing anything that normally happens in the unlock phase). Note that (2) is technically not skipping the player's entire turn, but now we are getting into semantics. As far as I can tell, no illegal effect can happen by following (2). So any distinction between 1 and 2 is irrelevant. If this is wrong, "when you would take your turn" needs to be further clarified.

> Kushiel wrote: > 2) If your answer is, "They decide before their turn starts," that's a de-errata, re-introducing the apparently contentious issue of making decisions during a phase that doesn't exist. (I'm not actually sure why the text was ever changed from "While in play, each Methulselah must skip his or her turn or burn two pool," which is much clearer to me.) > There is a major difference. The old wording (pay 2 pool or skip your turn) would mean that first traditions stack when there are multiples in play. You would have to make the choice for each first tradition separately. Whereas the up-to-date wording presented by Ankha (You may choose to skip your turn. Burn 2 pool during your unlock phase) means that if you skip your turn, none of the first traditions do anything since there is no unlock phase to burn pool in. This is the most likely cause of confusion with the card. I much more like the current up-to-date wording. This problem of multiple first traditions has come up in our local games but we figured it out using the up-to-date wording. ps. The perennial VTES issue of cards creating timing steps that don't exist is unfortunate, but I don't think this card can be made to work in any other way. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > There is a major difference. The old wording (pay 2 pool or skip your turn) would mean that first traditions stack when there are multiples in play. You would have to make the choice for each first tradition separately. > > Whereas the up-to-date wording presented by Ankha (You may choose to skip your turn. Burn 2 pool during your unlock phase) means that if you skip your turn, none of the first traditions do anything since there is no untap phase to burn pool in. This is the most likely cause of confusion with the card. [...] > Well, they still stack, do they not? 3 copies of First Traditions in play mean you have to burn 6 pool in order to take your turn, or am I mistaken? National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > Here's how I interpret "when you would take your turn": > > (1) There exists an opportunity for a player to choose to take their turn when First Tradition is in play between the end of one turn and the start of the next turn (before initiating the next turn's unlock phase). > Correct. > TwoRazorReign wrote: > (2) There exists an opportunity for a player to choose to take their turn when First Tradition is in play during their turn's unlock phase (before doing anything that normally happens in the unlock phase). > No, because it means you have begun to take your turn. Consider the analogy: you can choose to enter a room or not. If you set one foot in the room, you can't say: "wait, I don't enter the room" because it's too late. The choice of entering or not the room (taking the turn or not) must be done before you enter the room (start the turn). Moreover, "would" is used in the VTES terminology for replacement effects and it works exactly the same here: A would happen. Before A happens, you can choose to do something else instead (skipping your turn). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Hakuron wrote: > Well, they still stack, do they not? 3 copies of First Traditions in play mean you have to burn 6 pool in order to take your turn, or am I mistaken? > Yes. When you would take your turn, you have 3 effects to handle: - FT 1 asks you if you want to skip your turn or not - FT 2 asks you if you want to skip your turn or not - FT 3 asks you if you want to skip your turn or not If you answer 3 times "if want to take my turn", then you take you turn, and you must pay 6 pool since there are 3 FT. As soon as you answer "no, I want to skip my turn", you skip your turn and proceed with the next player's turn. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > Hakuron wrote: > > Well, they still stack, do they not? 3 copies of First Traditions in play mean you have to burn 6 pool in order to take your turn, or am I mistaken? > > > Yes. When you would take your turn, you have 3 effects to handle: > - FT 1 asks you if you want to skip your turn or not > - FT 2 asks you if you want to skip your turn or not > - FT 3 asks you if you want to skip your turn or not > > If you answer 3 times "if want to take my turn", then you take you turn, and you must pay 6 pool since there are 3 FT. > As soon as you answer "no, I want to skip my turn", you skip your turn and proceed with the next player's turn. > Does that mean each skip counts towards only one of the FTs? Can you choose which one? Burning pool affects all at once, or 2 per FT?

> Ankha wrote: > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > Here's how I interpret "when you would take your turn": > > > > (1) There exists an opportunity for a player to choose to take their turn when First Tradition is in play between the end of one turn and the start of the next turn (before initiating the next turn's unlock phase). > > > Correct. > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > (2) There exists an opportunity for a player to choose to take their turn when First Tradition is in play during their turn's unlock phase (before doing anything that normally happens in the unlock phase). > > > No, because it means you have begun to take your turn. > > Consider the analogy: you can choose to enter a room or not. If you set one foot in the room, you can't say: "wait, I don't enter the room" because it's too late. The choice of entering or not the room (taking the turn or not) must be done before you enter the room (start the turn). > > Moreover, "would" is used in the VTES terminology for replacement effects and it works exactly the same here: A would happen. Before A happens, you can choose to do something else instead (skipping your turn). > So the decision to use "would" replacement effects takes place immediately before whatever it is those effects are replacing in all cases? Or are there exceptions?

> Snodig wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > Hakuron wrote: > > > Well, they still stack, do they not? 3 copies of First Traditions in play mean you have to burn 6 pool in order to take your turn, or am I mistaken? > > > > > Yes. When you would take your turn, you have 3 effects to handle: > > - FT 1 asks you if you want to skip your turn or not > > - FT 2 asks you if you want to skip your turn or not > > - FT 3 asks you if you want to skip your turn or not > > > > If you answer 3 times "if want to take my turn", then you take you turn, and you must pay 6 pool since there are 3 FT. > > As soon as you answer "no, I want to skip my turn", you skip your turn and proceed with the next player's turn. > > > Does that mean each skip counts towards only one of the FTs? Can you choose which one? > Burning pool affects all at once, or 2 per FT? > Each skip do count towards ALL FT. groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/19Ys4rdQPQw/bijoNa8Z8FsJ Burning pool counts for each, not for all (so if there are 3 FT in play and you burn 6 pool, they don't burn at once). > TwoRazorReign wrote: > So "would" replacement effects take place immediately before whatever it is they are replacing in all cases? Or are there exceptions? > Not quite. There is the "is about to..." step that is in between. A would happen (still time to replace A by B) A is about to happen (you can't replace A by anything else, but you can apply some effects) A happens. For instance, Spying Mission 1/ Bleed would be successful => burns no blood instead and is not successful 2/ Bleed is about to be successful => it gets +2 bleed 3 Bleed is successful. The first time you play Spying Mission, 1/ happens (and 2/ and 3/ don't) Then you bleed the same Methuselah again and don't play another Spying Mission 2/ and 3/ happen (unless you play other effects). Revised card text for Spying Mission: Only usable if a bleed would be successful. Instead, the bleed burns no pool, is unsuccessful, and put this card on this vampire. The next time this vampire is about to successfully bleed the same Methuselah, burn this card and this vampire gets +2 bleed. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > Snodig wrote: > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakuron wrote: > > > > Well, they still stack, do they not? 3 copies of First Traditions in play mean you have to burn 6 pool in order to take your turn, or am I mistaken? > > > > > > > Yes. When you would take your turn, you have 3 effects to handle: > > > - FT 1 asks you if you want to skip your turn or not > > > - FT 2 asks you if you want to skip your turn or not > > > - FT 3 asks you if you want to skip your turn or not > > > > > > If you answer 3 times "if want to take my turn", then you take you turn, and you must pay 6 pool since there are 3 FT. > > > As soon as you answer "no, I want to skip my turn", you skip your turn and proceed with the next player's turn. > > > > > Does that mean each skip counts towards only one of the FTs? Can you choose which one? > > Burning pool affects all at once, or 2 per FT? > > > Each skip do count towards ALL FT. > > groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/19Ys4rdQPQw/bijoNa8Z8FsJ > This is very confiusing for me. Can you explain how this works timing wise. The timeline is linear and the effect of one has to be completed before another trigger. So how does this works. Becouse I see it like that. If the first one is trigger you choose to skip there is no trigger condition for other two to work. Vtes doesn't have a stack as MTG so the other 2 don't have trigger condition, because there is no turn to skip And I have another question. If there are 3 on the table and you said that all trigger. Isn't it an actual skipping virtually 3 turns because of 3 triggers of turn end ? So they all burn And what happens if you have two and first you burn than you skip ?

See groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/GZZJjzAeuxU/HtZKyNDKiOAJ and groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/lTdhrKTWK5Q/rm6Arf9nEioJ Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > See > groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/GZZJjzAeuxU/HtZKyNDKiOAJ > > and > > groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/lTdhrKTWK5Q/rm6Arf9nEioJ > I'm sorry Aakha this doesn't answer fully my questions. Because this answers consider only one trigger of FT:M per turn and not 2 or more in the same time. Maybe I will rephrase my questions: - How do you resolve 2 or more independent triggers as one group trigger in one turn if they have effect that are in conflict. You said in your example that all 3 copies need answer (aka. they trigger) And that that answers are treated as one group effect. But what about a situation in with you answer differently to each copy. For example 1: skip 2: brun 3: skip What group effect you will have. Do you have the turn or not. The second one I think i understand after reading this links: - How those triggering every copy works with checking condition in relation with each other As abow we need 3 answers (triggers) The result was skip. There was one group effect. But each copy of the card skipped a turn. Do they check each other effects or not. By the answer you give my I think not and there is no relation of card effects with the same name(every card is individual),they don't check each others triggers correct ? EDIT: I was thinking more about this and i think I got it. First of all the decision is to get a turn or not. berning 2 pool is an effect. So the timing is like this.(I think) 1. First FT:M triggers if you skip. Then no other is triggered but because there was a turn skip, all of them get a time counter 2. First FT:M trigger you decide to have a turn. Then the other triggers and you decide, if you say skip. Nothing happens turns end all of FT:M get a counter And Finally you can decide to have a turn on each of them and then turn starts, you burn pool in unlock for each triggered FT:M Correct ? (But this kind of timing indicates existence of stack)

> Tadori wrote: > And that that answers are treated as one group effect. But what about a situation in with you answer differently to each copy. For example > > 1: skip > 2: brun > 3: skip > Not how the card works. First Tradition has two distinct effects that happen at different times: 1) Players can choose to skip their turn. 2) Players burn 2 pool during their untap phase. The two effects are not linked logically, only temporally. For effect number 1, the player has only 1 turn to skip, so only 1 opportunity to make a decision no matter how First Tradition are in play. If the player decides to take his turn, then he has an untap phase with all that entails. The second effect of each First Tradition triggers in the exact same way as each Anarch Revolt or Smiling Jack would trigger.

This is like watching a movie about time travel. Terminator handled it best. The flavor text on first tradition should be "I dont know. I didn't build the thing". When I would begin turn I skip turn so I never would have begun turn so I cant skip turn etc Cant we just have at the beginning of phase contrasted with during phase. Using timing windows not defined in the rule book should be avoided at all costs even going so far as banning cards that dont fit.

> Mewcat wrote: > This is like watching a movie about time travel. Terminator handled it best. The flavor text on first tradition should be "I dont know. I didn't build the thing". > > When I would begin turn I skip turn so I never would have begun turn so I cant skip turn etc > > Cant we just have at the beginning of phase contrasted with during phase. Using timing windows not defined in the rule book should be avoided at all costs even going so far as banning cards that dont fit. > Well, I mean, if we started banning everything that did not fit what’s included in the rulebook, half the game would be banned. Probably better to update the rule book to describe what “would” and “is about to” on card text actually means in terms of timing.

If the cards were made so poorly then ban them. Total garbage rules is a hinderance for old players and a massive barrier for new ones. Really turns people off having to churn through all these old google groups only to find it has been changed.

> Non-existant user wrote: > > > Tadori wrote: > > And that that answers are treated as one group effect. But what about a situation in with you answer differently to each copy. For example > > > > 1: skip > > 2: brun > > 3: skip > > > Not how the card works. First Tradition has two distinct effects that happen at different times: > 1) Players can choose to skip their turn. > 2) Players burn 2 pool during their untap phase. > > The two effects are not linked logically, only temporally. For effect number 1, the player has only 1 turn to skip, so only 1 opportunity to make a decision no matter how First Tradition are in play. If the player decides to take his turn, then he has an untap phase with all that entails. The second effect of each First Tradition triggers in the exact same way as each Anarch Revolt or Smiling Jack would trigger. > FT:M is not like Anarch Revolt or Smiling Jack because they don't interfere with their trigger condition and if there is only one opportunity to make a decision and there is no Stack in the game you should trigger only one FT:M.It's different from Anarch Revolt or Smiling Jack because they actually work as an "action" cards in unlock phase. They are not interrupts. EDIT: You are right about burning. You burn 2 for each copy. The problem with Ankha answer is that it includes mechanics of stack(you trigger multiple interupt/reaction effects to one condition and then solve them) but as I know there is no such mechanism in VTES rulebook EDIT 2:So actually this card should ready: interupt: Before a turn begins, each Methuselah can choose to skip it. If controller of this card skips a turn put a "time" counter on it. Burns this card if there are 3 "time" counters. During Thier unlock phase each Methuselah burn 2 pool. If controller of this card burns pool put a "fire" counter on it. Burns this card if there are 3 "fire" counters. The difference between what you and Ankha wrote is that. Acc. to you there is only one trigger of FT:M so only one copy checks the first condition and gets a time counter. But all of them will get Fire counter. In Ankhas version all cards will get a time counter. (because all of them check timing) but it would indicate stack mechanism in VTES and what happens with different answers. > If the cards were made so poorly then ban them. Total garbage rules is a hinderance for old players and a massive barrier for new ones. Really turns people off having to churn through all these old google groups only to find it has been changed. > The only issue is that VTES has no definite timeline by the rules. IIf you look on any other modern CCG on each card you "action:, reaction:, interrupt:" cards specified time with key words and the rulebook has a clear definition of timeline. VTES doesn't have this kind of clear order and you have to analyze timeline from cards text.

Yea, it's not good to make cards without considering the rules of the game.

> Tadori wrote: > > The only issue is that VTES has no definite timeline by the rules. IIf you look on any other modern CCG on each card you "action:, reaction:, interrupt:" cards specified time with key words and the rulebook has a clear definition of timeline. VTES doesn't have this kind of clear order and you have to analyze timeline from cards text. > Indeed. Compounding this issue is that, historically, card texts in VTES were not vigilant about using consistent language across different cards to denote the same timing. Now that consistent text will be used on cards moving forward (I am hearing that's the plan), the rulebook can be updated with what those consistent texts are and what they mean. For example, "would" and "is about to" can be added to the list of templates in the rulebook, with the description that "would" replacement effects take place before whatever effect they are replacing, with "is about to" effects happening immediately thereafter (or whatever). An attempt to solve that issue is being made, albeit without introducing new keywords. Is this fix elegant in the context of modern CCGs? No. Is it better than what VTES historically has done? Yes.

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > > > Tadori wrote: > > > > The only issue is that VTES has no definite timeline by the rules. IIf you look on any other modern CCG on each card you "action:, reaction:, interrupt:" cards specified time with key words and the rulebook has a clear definition of timeline. VTES doesn't have this kind of clear order and you have to analyze timeline from cards text. > > > Indeed. Compounding this issue is that, historically, card texts in VTES were not vigilant about using consistent language across different cards to denote the same timing. Now that consistent text will be used on cards moving forward (I am hearing that's the plan), the rulebook can be updated with what those consistent texts are and what they mean. For example, "would" and "is about to" can be added to the list of templates in the rulebook, with the description that "would" replacement effects take place before whatever effect they are replacing, with "is about to" effects happening immediately thereafter (or whatever). > > An attempt to solve that issue is being made, albeit without introducing new keywords. Is this fix elegant in the context of modern CCGs? No. Is it better than what VTES historically has done? Yes. > I agree 100%. Iit's not possible to create special key words in 25 year old game. They will have to create keywords as you said from template words. It's just more complicated because every time when you will use those words in descriptions you have to be careful. I think the most common words used in games are Before(interrupt), After(Reaction), During (action), may (choice)

Realitsitcally the only way to clean up the rules is do a reset or errata every old card.

> Mewcat wrote: > Realitsitcally the only way to clean up the rules is do a reset or errata every old card. > Would you enjoy playing this game you are talking about ? I know I wouldn't... I want to play this game as it is. I don't like complicated rules for the sake of it but yes, it is a deep and complicated game and I enjoy it this way...

That is a false equivalence. Poor templating and unclear rules do not lead to strategic depth.

> Mewcat wrote: > That is a false equivalence. Poor templating and unclear rules do not lead to strategic depth. > I agree. But you propose a reset or an arrata of every old card. So the game would be kind of different don't you think ? Like by a lot...

It's not so much that I proposed it here, just that im saying we won't ever get rid of the clutter otherwise.

> Timo wrote: > > > Mewcat wrote: > > That is a false equivalence. Poor templating and unclear rules do not lead to strategic depth. > > > I agree. > > But you propose a reset or an arrata of every old card. > > So the game would be kind of different don't you think ? Like by a lot... > the way I see it here are the options we as a community have: Keep the core mechanics, but otherwise give the game a hard reset. Take all the cards you own and have a bonfire. Buy new cards and complain about cash grabs, or ragequit. Errata old cards to be useful. Complain that the old cards still exist and that having multiple versions of the same card are confusing to new players. Complain that issuing errata is just a cash grab to get us to buy new cards, or ragequit. Do nothing, the game is perfect as it is. Complain that new cards being released are overpowered and just a cash grab to get us to buy new cards and make old cards obsolete. Ragequit. every time this comes up it goes around in circles and reminds me of this scene: Clearly I cannot choose the wine in front of you

Lets be honest. VTES needs a huge amount of reprints if we want to have new players in community. Currently ebay is our major source of cards. I think at one point there should be some kind of reprint bundle that is not a pre construct. But a newbie expansion that will include all old and necessary cards to upgrade a starter, maybe a bundle for each main discipline. This will create an opportunity to have an old cards updates and clarifications.

> Tadori wrote: > I think at one point there should be some kind of reprint bundle that is not a pre construct. > There are already several Bundles that BCP does. Their first products actually. I'm pretty sure that they will later on continue with similar products for at least some other (older) sets. > Tadori wrote: > But a newbie expansion that will include all old and necessary cards to upgrade a starter, maybe a bundle for each main discipline. > > This will create an opportunity to have an old cards updates and clarifications. > BCP gave just yesterday more detailed info to the distributors and retailers on the five inexpensive VTES: First Blood decks (aka demo decks) that are due out in September. Info at www.fantasiapelit.com has been updated to reflect that, later on perhaps also some less up to speed sources will update their sites... In addition to First Blood decks there is a complete "Beginner Box" coming late this year containing, according to my interview with Henrik at last weekend's Ropecon stream, six (6) decks. Apparently in order to give variance and additional choice of which deck to play for a playgroup. Finnish Politics!