Undead Persistence and Psyche!

Wondering how Psyche! superior interacts with Undead Persistence inferior... Undead Persistence Combat Fortitude [for] Only usable when this vampire should go into torpor. This vampire gets an optional press and will not go to torpor until combat ends (although he or she is still considered wounded and can be burned as normal). If three rounds of combat pass with no cards played, combat ends. This vampire is sent into torpor after combat. Psyche! Combat Celerity [cel] Press. [CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion. Finnish Politics!

Could you please detail the scenario? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Could you please detail the scenario? > Vampire is in combat. Plays undead persistence. Combat would be about to end, someone plays psyche. Does the vampire go to torpor immediately, or after the second combat caused by the psyche? Apparently according to LSJ, the "go to torpor after combat" condition carries over to the next combat queued by psyche ([LSJ 20030214]), ie. psyche "trumps" the effect of undead persistence. But this makes no sense to me nor others. Psyche lets the combat end, combat ends, why doesn't vampire who used undead persistence go to torpor? Someone pointed out that psyche has had several revisions to its wording since the LSJ ruling, so maybe this should be looked at again by the rules committee? Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

The ruling stands. UP has a circumvoluted wording that basically says: the vampire cannot go to torpor in combat, and goes to torpor after (all) combats have ended. The "3 rounds" effects is also a terrible idea for what it's worth. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Thanks. I'm with Bloodartist on this one. Intuitively it feels that when the initial combat ends the vampire using UP should go to torpor as per UP wording ("This vampire is sent into torpor after combat."), Not after "all combats" have ended. Psyche! says "After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.". So round ends and before the new combat queued by Psyche! starts UP's wording ("This vampire is sent into torpor after combat.") should kick in. If the combatants move on to a new combat (as per Psyche!) why doesn't the UP function like all the other cards do (once per combat effects etcsuch as the inbuilt maneuvers on guns are reset, bonuses and efects for the duration of the combat are lost such as Torn Signpost and Carrion Crows etc)? So it would seem more logical if Psyche! carries combatants to another combat without torporizing the vampire using UP then like all effect that lasted through the initial combat (like going to torpor and preventing to going to torpor) are lost too. Perhaps the time is ripe for these rules issues to be looked at again? ********************* I take the "3 rounds" effect is there to prevent abuse but come to think of it without combat cards it is pretty hard to get multiple presses (minus Meat Hook providing endless press if not countered by a Dodge). Trap also works for three rounds but after that you need to reset it with a combat card. Probably worded like it was to go in tandem with Trap. But Trap already has the same time limit so why not just have UP work for the duration of the combat? (Well, of course Meat Hook but Trap and UP were released in Jyhad and Meat Hook was introduced years later in Final Nights so MH can't have been the reason but perhaps they anticipated that kinda of thing and didn't want to make UP too powerful?) Finnish Politics!

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > Could you please detail the scenario? > > > Vampire is in combat. Plays undead persistence. Combat would be about to end, someone plays psyche. Does the vampire go to torpor immediately, or after the second combat caused by the psyche? > > Apparently according to LSJ, the "go to torpor after combat" condition carries over to the next combat queued by psyche ([LSJ 20030214]), ie. psyche "trumps" the effect of undead persistence. But this makes no sense to me nor others. Psyche lets the combat end, combat ends, why doesn't vampire who used undead persistence go to torpor? > > Someone pointed out that psyche has had several revisions to its wording since the LSJ ruling, so maybe this should be looked at again by the rules committee? > I agree with you 100%. This ruling is against wording of the cards. If psyche was changed multiple times the ruling should also be also updated. With current ruling it seems you can have combat inside of the combat before the first one ends. The question is why ? and what for. But if this is the case why other cards like carrion crows work differently and doesn't stay in psyche combat

> Ankha wrote: > The ruling stands. UP has a circumvoluted wording that basically says: the vampire cannot go to torpor in combat, and goes to torpor after (all) combats have ended. The "3 rounds" effects is also a terrible idea for what it's worth. > If you can play Obedience to prevent a queued Psyche! combat, which you can, then why is there no window to check for the wounded vampire state between combats? When one combat ends, it ends. You can do things before the next queued combat (like Obedience); transitioning to the next combat is not instantaneous. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/R94tyTGJ6VQ/m/KxvkGm1aon8J

> Pascal wrote: > Marthe can play Psyche! at the end of a round of combat, retrieve it after combat (say in the "Obedience window"), and start the new combat. > above is another ruling insinuating the same point as kschaefer´s post, that there is a window between the initial combat ending, in which the UP:ed vampire should be going to torpor, and the new Psyche! combat. Both "will not go to torpor until combat ends" and "This vampire is sent into torpor after combat." seem to fit into the above-mentioned window. In the same spirit, wouldn´t a Dodge, Quick Jab, Lucky Blow, etc. be replaced until the end of the Psyche! combat? which also falls into the above-mentioned window. "After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion." implies that the current combat is ended before beginning another combat.

As an aside, this would be much more clear if you could only start a new combat from outside of combat. Superior Psyche! used to be played outside of combat, but was a combat card. We introduced combo cards that were combat and other things, like actions modifiers, but instead of making Psyche! fit that model, which it already did, we moved the new combat queue into the current combat. This is just a bad idea. Things would be more clear if superior Psyche! were an action modifier/reaction card.

> kschaefer wrote: > As an aside, this would be much more clear if you could only start a new combat from outside of combat. > > Superior Psyche! used to be played outside of combat, but was a combat card. We introduced combo cards that were combat and other things, like actions modifiers, but instead of making Psyche! fit that model, which it already did, we moved the new combat queue into the current combat. This is just a bad idea. > It would make things simpler also if psyche was played within combat, but resolved only once combat ended. That way we wouldn't have to worry about the exact timing when psyche is playable, since no matter when, the end result would be the same. Currently playing a card and resolving it is instantaneous (except for exeptions because vtes). It would make things far simpler if we detached card being played and its resolution from each other. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

I for one think that the change to Psyche! that it is played within the combat was a good one to align this combat card to work like all others (only playable in a combat) and don´t actually see that as a problem nor that it "queues" a combat. The problematic part, in my opinion, is rulings that tie the two combats together without the possibility to lose the queued combat and create the notion that the first combat ends at the start of the Psyche! combat which is nonsense. The only tie they should have is that they are both combats part of the same action resolution. The queued combat should be handled just like we handle superior Blur (while not being under the effect of UP or the likes) which is if in the first additional strike one of the minions is wounded the second additional strike is just lost, meaning that if a minion is wounded between a combat and a "queued" Psyche! combat the latter is lost as one of the minions goes to torpor before the "queued" combat gets a chance to start.