Tariq Merge during influence phase

Related rules: www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary INFLUENCE PHASE [7] Gain Transfers (a.k.a. "Influence Phase Actions"). On turns 1, 2, and 3, gain only 1, 2, or 3 transfers, respectively. Each turn after the third, gain exactly 4 transfers. You may spend your transfers in any combination of the following: 1: move one of your pool to one of your uncontrolled minions. 2: move one blood from one of your uncontrolled minions to your pool. 4: burn one pool and move the top card from your crypt to your uncontrolled region. 4: burn one pool to merge a vampire in your uncontrolled region with a vampire you control (the base and advanced versions). [1.5.6] Any remaining transfers are lost. Any uncontrolled vampires (minions) with blood equal or greater than their blood capacity (cost) become controlled and move to the ready region unlocked. Excess counters drain off. If I have Information Highway in play and in my uncontroled region: 6 counters on Tariq, the Silent ( ADV ), 0 on Tariq, the Silent ( basic version ), 1 in a Anarch Convert, 0 in another Anarch Convert. Can I spend, 1 transfer to influence Tariq ( ADV), 4 transfers to merge it, 1 transfer to bring the 0 counter Anarch Convert to play transforming Tariq ( Merged ) in anarch? Can I spend, 1 transfer to influence Tariq ( ADV), bring the Anarch Convert with 1 counter to play transforming Tariq ( ADV ) in anarch and after it, 4 transfers to merge and finally 1 transfer to bring the other Anarch Convert to play transforming Tariq ( Merged ) in anarch? The "merged" before influence phase end Tariq lose 4 blood because of the non merged text? Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

First it costs no transfer to bring an influenced minion into play. Then if I am correct, you can bring a full Tariq in play during your influence phase. At this time Tariq is controlled and is not merged so his capacity is reduced by his card text. So you lose blood accordingly. You can bring a full Convert in play and then using (or not) his text to make Tariq Anarch. You can then use 4 transfers to merge Tariq (and gain no blood for it). And bring another full Convert into play. Chosing (or not) to make Tariq (merged) Anarch.

> Sambomb wrote: > > Related rules: > www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary > INFLUENCE PHASE [7] Gain Transfers (a.k.a. "Influence Phase Actions"). On turns 1, 2, and 3, gain only 1, 2, or 3 transfers, respectively. Each turn after the third, gain exactly 4 transfers. You may spend your transfers in any combination of the following: 1: move one of your pool to one of your uncontrolled minions. 2: move one blood from one of your uncontrolled minions to your pool. 4: burn one pool and move the top card from your crypt to your uncontrolled region. 4: burn one pool to merge a vampire in your uncontrolled region with a vampire you control (the base and advanced versions). [1.5.6] Any remaining transfers are lost. Any uncontrolled vampires (minions) with blood equal or greater than their blood capacity (cost) become controlled and move to the ready region unlocked. Excess counters drain off. > > If I have Information Highway in play and in my uncontroled region: > 6 counters on Tariq, the Silent ( ADV ), 0 on Tariq, the Silent ( basic version ), 1 in a Anarch Convert, 0 in another Anarch Convert. > Can I spend, 1 transfer to influence Tariq ( ADV), 4 transfers to merge it, 1 transfer to bring the 0 counter Anarch Convert to play transforming Tariq ( Merged ) in anarch? Can I spend, 1 transfer to influence Tariq ( ADV), bring the Anarch Convert with 1 counter to play transforming Tariq ( ADV ) in anarch and after it, 4 transfers to merge and finally 1 transfer to bring the other Anarch Convert to play transforming Tariq ( Merged ) in anarch? The "merged" before influence phase end Tariq lose 4 blood because of the non merged text? > 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. As soon as Tariq enters play you will need to remove excess blood.

In the past revealing uncontrolled minions was mandatory and simultaneous. Rules change may have impacted this. Hmm Detailed play summary III.d.4 does not describe this as optional. Also presumably you move through the steps in order so merging happens before revealing uncontrolled. Beats me.

The rulebook answers your last question: The advancement card is a vampire card in all respects, so it can be influenced in the normal manner. In addition, if you already control the advancement or the associated regular "base" vampire and the other version of the vampire is in your uncontrolled region, then you can spend 4 transfers and 1 pool to move the vampire card from your uncontrolled region to the controlled vampire card (place the advancement card on top of the base card). The two cards effectively merge to form a single vampire. Merging happens when a controlled (!) vampire meets his counterpart. National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

> Sambomb wrote: > Can I spend, 1 transfer to influence Tariq ( ADV), 4 transfers to merge it, 1 transfer to bring the 0 counter Anarch Convert to play transforming Tariq ( Merged ) in anarch? Can I spend, 1 transfer to influence Tariq ( ADV), bring the Anarch Convert with 1 counter to play transforming Tariq ( ADV ) in anarch and after it, 4 transfers to merge and finally 1 transfer to bring the other Anarch Convert to play transforming Tariq ( Merged ) in anarch? The "merged" before influence phase end Tariq lose 4 blood because of the non merged text? > You can order your influence in any way that you want and are no longer required to bring any minions into play even if they have enough counters to be controlled. Therefore: 1. You have 6 transfers. You can do this. You will end up with a 7-capacity vampire that has 3 blood and is Anarch. 2. You have 6 transfers you can do this. You will end up with a 7-capacity vampire that has 3 blood and is Anarch. Note: nothing prevents you from using an Anarch Convert on a vampire that is already an Anarch, so this rigamarole to use two AC is not necessary. You could use both of them at the end, if you wanted. 3. Yes, he will lose 4 blood. There is a definite order and it does not matter which Tariq is first. He becomes a 3-capacity vampire and the excess will go to the blood bank. All of that must be resolve before you can merge him.

Troubling that detailed play summary is wrong and inconclusive. I guess they are working on this. Where do you get info karl? Bathroom walls in truck stop?

I believe that the Detailed Play Summary was not updated with the rules changes that altered the way influence worked. Even under the old system, nothing was truly simultaneous, so to merge Tariq you would need to order it appropriately. I write the rules on the palm of my hand, like a kid cheating on his finals in High School. As long as I don't get sweaty and wipe my forehead, I can keep everything straight.

I want to have a storyline event called "dicing for the universe" where any and all rules questions are solved with dice.

The fact you can bring a Anarch Convert and use his effect before he enters play ( constesting with others Anarch Converts ) makes me wonder if a merged Tariq influence is possible, maybe with the new rules this would be a thing, but is a corner case. Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

I believe as enters play in influence does some odd things, such as happen before contest but after static abils

> Mewcat wrote: > In the past revealing uncontrolled minions was mandatory and simultaneous. > It was mandatory, but has never been simultaneous. groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/xniKbxCHgQs/uTzgrd-zlBMJ > LSJ wrote: > > From Rulebook 7.0 > > "At the end of your influence phase, any vampire in your uncontrolled region > > with a number of blood counters on him equal to (or more than) his capacity > > becomes controlled. The vampire is turned faceup and moved to the ready > > region, untapped. The blood counters are kept on him to represent his blood > > (counters in excess of his capacity drain off immediately as usual)." > > > > it seems that there's no order as to moving your full vamps to the > > uncontrolled region, so they would become controlled simultaneously. > I see nothing in there to indicate that the effects must be simultaneous. > Non-simultaneous is the default. > Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Could you please update "Detailed Play" to use the new influence rules? And just to clarify, merge during influence to avoid the tariq flaw is not possible right? Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

2 related questions that came up the other day: Banished minion with skill card. Capacity x. Can x + 1 blood be placed and remain after influence. Merged minion with different capacity is banished. What is the capacity of uncontrolled minion? Same over influence question as before.

> Sambomb wrote: > Could you please update "Detailed Play" to use the new influence rules? > And just to clarify, merge during influence to avoid the tariq flaw is not possible right? > No, his capacity is still reduced when the first version becomes controlled.

> Sambomb wrote: > Could you please update "Detailed Play" to use the new influence rules? > Probably not, since I don't endorse this document. > Sambomb wrote: > And just to clarify, merge during influence to avoid the tariq flaw is not possible right? > One way of the other, you have to bring out one of the two versions of Tariq first, and his capacity is reduced before you can merge it with the other version. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Mewcat wrote: > 2 related questions that came up the other day: > > Banished minion with skill card. Capacity x. Can x + 1 blood be placed and remain after influence. > > Merged minion with different capacity is banished. What is the capacity of uncontrolled minion? Same over influence question as before. > Every card on a vampire in your uncontrolled region is out of game so it doesn't change your vampire capacity. So you can choose to place x counters on him and put him back in the ready region. You could also place X+1 blood and he would come in the ready region with X+1 blood. Once controlled, the game will check if the vampire have too many blood and will see a controlled vampire with a capacity of X+1 and no excess blood. For the second question, I am not sure because I can't find the rules about merged vampires. But IIRC once merged, the vampire take every trait from the advanced version plus the text of the base version and the merged version. So a vampire with a 7 capacity base and an 8 capacity advanced will be an 8 capacity merged. And the game remember it has been merged so if you want to influence him back, you will need to put 8 counters on him (and an 8 capacity vampire will not be able to put blood counter on him using cards like Govern the Unaligned).

If Merged Tariq got banished and come back he still loses capacity before enter the game? Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

No. Per card text, for merged Tariq: "Tariq's capacity is not reduced by his card text."

Yes, but if he should come back one version before merge it the -4 capacity kicks in. Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

> Timo wrote: > > > Mewcat wrote: > > 2 related questions that came up the other day: > > > > Banished minion with skill card. Capacity x. Can x + 1 blood be placed and remain after influence. > > > > Merged minion with different capacity is banished. What is the capacity of uncontrolled minion? Same over influence question as before. > > > Every card on a vampire in your uncontrolled region is out of game so it doesn't change your vampire capacity. So you can choose to place x counters on him and put him back in the ready region. You could also place X+1 blood and he would come in the ready region with X+1 blood. Once controlled, the game will check if the vampire have too many blood and will see a controlled vampire with a capacity of X+1 and no excess blood. > > For the second question, I am not sure because I can't find the rules about merged vampires. But IIRC once merged, the vampire take every trait from the advanced version plus the text of the base version and the merged version. > > So a vampire with a 7 capacity base and an 8 capacity advanced will be an 8 capacity merged. And the game remember it has been merged so if you want to influence him back, you will need to put 8 counters on him (and an 8 capacity vampire will not be able to put blood counter on him using cards like Govern the Unaligned). > Are there even Advanced versions that differ in capacity from the basic version?

> Sambomb wrote: > Yes, but if he should come back one version before merge it the -4 capacity kicks in. > Are you asking what happens if another non-merged vampire is influenced? If the merged version is banished and influenced back out, it will be at full capacity as soon as it hits the table.

> Snodig wrote: > Are there even Advanced versions that differ in capacity from the basic version? > Several. A few examples Reverend Adams (base 3, advanced 4 ) (also notable since merged Adams is strictly worse than Advanced Adams) Jessecia (base 7, advanced 8 ) Sarrasine (base 7, advanced 8 ) Beckett (base 7, advanced 8 ) -- National Coordinator South Africa

How about merged Valorius Major, what is his capacity if he is banished? e.g. does his merge text aply while he is uncontrolled? Valerius Maior, Hell's Fool (see non-Advanced) nec pre AUS DAI DOM THA [Tremere antitribu] Tremere antitribu Capacity: 7 Group: 4 Advanced, Sabbat. Red List: If Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion cannot play action modifier or combat cards that require Chimerstry [chi] or Obfuscate [obf] . Infernal. [MERGED] Independent: Valerius becomes non-infernal and non-Red List as he merges. While merged, his capacity is reduced by 2. Artist(s): Ken Meyer, Jr. Set(s): KMW:U/PB

Cardtext doesn't apply while uncontrolled. He's capacity 7 while uncontrolled. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Timo wrote: > Every card on a vampire in your uncontrolled region is out of game so it doesn't change your vampire capacity. So you can choose to place x counters on him and put him back in the ready region. You could also place X+1 blood and he would come in the ready region with X+1 blood. Once controlled, the game will check if the vampire have too many blood and will see a controlled vampire with a capacity of X+1 and no excess blood. > > For the second question, I am not sure because I can't find the rules about merged vampires. But IIRC once merged, the vampire take every trait from the advanced version plus the text of the base version and the merged version. > > So a vampire with a 7 capacity base and an 8 capacity advanced will be an 8 capacity merged. And the game remember it has been merged so if you want to influence him back, you will need to put 8 counters on him (and an 8 capacity vampire will not be able to put blood counter on him using cards like Govern the Unaligned). > Yeah, its kind of confusing. We are used to the whole "Every card on a vampire in your uncontrolled region is out of game" thing but merging seems to be different on a few levels. Some confirmation of merged uncontrolled vampire behavior would be great.

> Non-existant user wrote: > The advancement and the base card are treated as a single vampire card, even if sent to the uncontrolled region somehow, until the vampire is burned. > This case is already addressed in the rulebook. It is a single vampire until burned.

> Ankha wrote: > Cardtext doesn't apply while uncontrolled. [Valerius Maior]'s capacity 7 while uncontrolled. > This also means that merged Valerius can be the target of Tend the Flock, since the text to remove his Infernal trait is moot, correct?

So the merged uncontrolled vamp is the same capacity as the merged vamp? ---- This also means that merged Valerius can be the target of Tend the Flock, since the text to remove his Infernal trait is moot, correct? Side note on this and basic ivan krenyenko text. why cant be get location equipment because they are just equipment qhile in deck?

The uncontrolled capacity of a merged vampire is the capacity printed on the advanced version, since the advance version would take precedence if there's a difference in capacity, and you ignore all _text_, such as capacity changing text on the vampire.

> kschaefer wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > Cardtext doesn't apply while uncontrolled. [Valerius Maior]'s capacity 7 while uncontrolled. > > > This also means that merged Valerius can be the target of Tend the Flock, since the text to remove his Infernal trait is moot, correct? > Not quite: "Independent: Valerius becomes non-infernal and non-Red List as he merges." The change is one-shot and permanent ("becomes"). If for some reason his text were blank after he merged, he would still be non-infernal and non-Red List. While uncontrolled, it's the same. A vampire becoming Anarch using the rulebook action would still be Anarch while uncontrolled. Barbaro Lucchese who would change clan would be Tremere antitribu while uncontrolled. Also, a vampire keeps his traits while uncontrolled, I think it should be clarified in the rulebook. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Clarify what you mean by traits please. I do not find that word in the rulebook. Infernal is described in special terms so that makes infernal a special term I guess. Also how does ivan krenyenko work when equipment like palatial estate are just equipment until in play?

> Mewcat wrote: > Clarify what you mean by traits please. I do not find that word in the rulebook. Infernal is described in special terms so that makes infernal a special term I guess.[/qipte > As I said, "I think it should be clarified in the rulebook.". But basically, traits is everything that is not a sentence nor a bonus/malus. > For instance, "Black Hand" is a trait. "+1 stealth." is not. > > > Also how does ivan krenyenko work when equipment like palatial estate are just equipment until in play? > > > As it is written: "non-location equipment" is a shortcut for "equipment that are not location while in play". It could be clarified too, but it's trivial at this point. > Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Based on the actual wording on these cards I see no reason for them to work like that. Specifically they are worded to not interact at all, as it stands. They are just equipment while is deck. No trait, keyword, or term exists to clarify them. Cards dont have text in deck and if it did the text here specifically says that it is just equipment.

> Mewcat wrote: > Based on the actual wording on these cards I see no reason for them to work like that. Specifically they are worded to not interact at all, as it stands. > I know, but based on common sense, the only equipment cards that are locations are these kind of cards. > Mewcat wrote: > They are just equipment while is deck. No trait, keyword, or term exists to clarify them. Cards dont have text in deck and if it did the text here specifically says that it is just equipment. > Consider this to be an exception. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I hope u can appreciate how frustrating it is when sometimes cards do what they say even when that doesn't make any sense and other times they dont do what they say to make sense of it. You argue that the rules are consistant always. I see no such thing.

> Mewcat wrote: > I hope u can appreciate how frustrating it is when sometimes cards do what they say even when that doesn't make any sense and other times they dont do what they say to make sense of it. > Sure. I wouldn't say frustrating though, it seems a bit extreme. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director