I have a question regarding strike timing, restrictions and Dog Pack.
The question is, a card that prohibits a minion from doing a certain type of strike stops them only from choosing that strike, from resolving that strike, or both?
In this case, if a minion had a Dog Pack employed, could the opposing minion choose a combat end (and so, cycling it), even though they could not resolve it? If not, could I play a Dog Pack through Summon Spirit Beast after they declare their strike:combat end to stop it from resolving?
A similar case that comes to mind is immortal grapple and an strike with optional maneuvers (like magnum or aid from bat): If I understand it correctly, a minion would declare a strike with optional maneuver during the range phase to use the maneuver, then the immortal would be played and, as the strike was chosen, they won't be able to use it. Use being the key card here as immortal specifies "Use", but Dog pack doesn't.
So, what is the exact ruling for strikes, strikes with maneuvers and strike restrictions?
Summon Spirit Beast [LoB:R]
Cardtype: Combat/Reaction
Cost: X blood
Discipline: Spiritus/Animalism
[ani] [COMBAT] Discard X cards.
[spi] [COMBAT][REACTION] Move X animal retainers from your ash heap to this vampire, with life from the blood bank equal to their starting amounts. After this minion phase ends, burn those retainers.
[SPI] As [spi] above, but the retainers are not burned until after the end of your next minion phase.
Dog Pack [AH:R2, Anarchs:PG]
Cardtype: Retainer
Clan: Gangrel
Cost: 2 pool
Animal with 1 life.
Minions opposing the minion with this retainer cannot end combat as a strike.
Immortal Grapple [Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, Sabbat:U, SW:U/PB, FN:PG, CE:U/PB2, Third:U, LotN:PG2, KoT:U/PB3, HttB:PGar3]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Potence
Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Grapple.
[pot] Strikes that are not hand strikes may not be used this round (by either combatant). A vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round.
[POT] As above, with an optional press. If another round of combat occurs, that round is at close range; skip the determine range step for that round.
To make matters even worse, i have two conflicting rulings:
LSJ
groups.google.com/d/topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/CUiFanzq42k/discussion
Pascal
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/11078-cannot-use-equipment-and-summon-spirit-beast
So... Who's right?
I am not a judge, but I am fairly certain that in VTES dog pack prevents you from playing a combat end card. As a rule of thumb in VTES, you cannot play cards that would have an illegal effect. You must be able to apply it, similarly that you have to be able to pay the cost of a card. It's bit iffy, but at least its pretty consistent in VTES.
edit: Dog pack says that opponent cannot "Choose combat end as a strike". You play the card as you choose the strike. You cannot choose the strike, you cannot play the card.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
> edit: Dog pack says that opponent cannot "Choose combat end as a strike".
>
No it doesn't.
www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt
Minions opposing the minion with this retainer cannot end combat as a strike.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Bloodartist wrote:
> > edit: Dog pack says that opponent cannot "Choose combat end as a strike".
> >
> No it doesn't.
>
> www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt
>
> Minions opposing the minion with this retainer cannot end combat as a strike.
>
So the answer to the topic question is...?
ps. The card probably should have the text I posted, because my text is clearer.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Ratadin wrote:
> I have a question regarding strike timing, restrictions and Dog Pack.
>
> The question is, a card that prohibits a minion from doing a certain type of strike stops them only from choosing that strike, from resolving that strike, or both?
>
Both, plus you cannot play a card (to cycle) that gives you S:CE, because you have to play a card that gives a valid strike.
If by any way you have already defined your strike as S:CE, you don't have a strike at all.
Note: Dog Pack cannot prevent Rötschreck, because it is not a strike.
I have asked Pascal if his ruling was meant to overrule LSJ's, which was not the case.
So LSJ's ruling stands.
If there is a Dog Pack on the opposing minion, you cannot declare a strike: combat ends.
If you have already declared a strike: combat ends and the opposing minion plays Pack Alpha to get a Dog Pack, your strike fizzles, just like in the Aid from Bats vs Immortal Grapple scenario.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director