Discussion: clear and consistent wording templates

> Ankha wrote: > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > I disagree that it wouldn't be clearer. The existence of the punctuation (the colon) is absolutely crucial for the MtG template to work. Whenever the template is used, the colon is included, so there is a visual cue that a template is being used. The "Tap X to do Y" template does not have a similar visual cue, so it's not always clear to the reader that a template with specific functions is being used. > > > MtG is another game with a majority of triggered effects. It's logical that triggered effects are emphasized. It would be weird to do the same in V:TES since they are very few effects such as these. > I think you may have misunderstood my point here. I’m not suggesting that current templates should change in order to emphasize anything. I’m saying using a template that structures the text around consistent punctuation helps the reader understand that a template is being used, which may be important in the case of “Tap X to do Y” because this template also involves a rule (you can only “tap to” once during something). Therefore, people need to be able to easily recognize when the template is being used. This is difficult in the case of “Tap X to do Y” because only the words “Tap” and “to” are consistency included, and there’s no other visual cue like a colon. Any number of words can be included in addition to “Tap” and “to”. The point I’m trying to make is if this template also consistently included punctuation that acted as a visual cue, such as a colon, the reader would recognize it more readily than if they had to wade through text describing complex effects to find “tap” and “to,” with any number of intervening words in between. > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > In addition, the colon forces the card to not "mix up > > other text" and deviate too far from the template, as is often the case with "Tap X to do Y". > > > This is false. Can you point out cases where the "tap ... to ..." template is not consistent? > Sure. Dreams of the Sphinx is a good example of the type of inconsistency I am talking about (which I realize may be different than the type of inconsistency you thought I may have been referring to). Let’s look at each sentence. Tap this card to get +2 hand size until the end of the current turn. Note in this first sentence, it is clarified what is being tapped by naming the object (“this card”) in the independent clause (“[you] Tap this card”). Also note that there is an infinitive verb that contains a word crucial to understanding if the template is being used (“to” in “to get”) connecting the independent clause with an infinitive phrase (“+ 1 hand size…”). Tap during your untap phase to gain an additional pool if you have the Edge. Now, this sentence drops the object in the independent clause (“this card,”) and in its place includes a modifying prepositional phrase indicating when to tap the card (“during your untap phase”). So now there is an independent clause with words left out (“tap [this card]”), an intervening prepositional phrase, and an infinitive verb that contains a word crucial to understanding if the template is being used (“to” in the infinitive verb “to gain”) connecting the previous clauses to an infinitive phrase (“an additional pool…”). Here, the reader is tasked to decipher that inclusion of "during" means one template that uses "Tap...to" is being used over the other template that uses "Tap...to" Tap to move a blood from the bank to a vampire in your uncontrolled region. Once again, “this card” is dropped; then, there’s the infinitive verb that contains a word crucial to understanding if the template is being used (“to” in “to move”) connecting to an infinitive phrase (“a blood from the bank)”, which now appears before a prepositional phrase (“to a vampire…”) Another thing of note about this sentence: the word “to” appears twice. This means the reader is now tasked with trying to decipher if one of the instances of “to” means that they can only get this effect once. All sentences look like they are using the same template, but 2 different templates are being used. Bottom line: “Tap X to do Y” breaks some rules when it comes to templates, the major sin being that any one instance of the template used in practice does not include a parallel sentence structure with another instance. Given that the only clues the reader has to determine if the template is being used is the inclusion of the words “tap” and “to,” parallelism in the way sentences are structured among all cards may help the reader to spot these words, and, therefore, spot the template. Adding punctuation, like a colon, may help add a visual cue for the reader. It’s important to remember that readers of these cards are supposed to recognize when the template is used because there is a specific rule attached to it (you can only “tap to” once during something). I hope this clarifies what I mean when I say the template is not consistent and the resulting issues that readers may experience. > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > Whoever developed the "Tap X do Y" template really did not understand that templates are used to provide consistency and structure to the text, first and foremost, so that the reader can understand the rules. It's not meant to be a rule in itself ("do this whenever this template is used") > > > This is the case. The usage of "tap ... to ..." is consistent and provides structure to the text. I understand it's not written the way you'd like it to be written, but that's another subject to which I answered in my previous post. For instance, usage of a colon could get mixed up with strikes that use colons. > It’s not really a matter of personal preference. There are definite issues with the “Tap X to do Y” template from an editorial standpoint, as outlined above. I also think use of a colon in instances other than “strike:” is not as problematic as you seem to think it is. But my post here isn’t really about adding a colon to this particular template; maybe a colon indeed won’t work. It’s more about pointing out how the MtG template mentioned previously used punctuation to its advantage in terms of structuring the template so that instances on different cards would be parallel, whereas “Tap X to do Y” does nothing at all like this. I suggest it may be time to look into reorganizing the “Tap X to do Y” template for consistent sentence structure on cards so the reader can more easily spot when the template is being used. Modedit\\ As said, card templating warrants a topic of it's own, and clutters the rule book discussion needlessly.

It's about the rulebook. Specifically: “During X, do Y”: The “during X do Y” template is used in several cards. When this template is used, only one Y can be done per X with this card. For instance, you may move blood from your vampire to your pool with Vessel only once per unlock phase. “Lock X to do Y”: Some cards use this wording, for instance: superior Bauble, Isanwayen. Such effects can’t be used by locked minions, even by those under a wake effect. These effects require an unlocked minion to be used. Conversely, “Lock X. Do Y” effects (for instance: Redirection) are usable by locked minions under a wake effect.

Neverthless, this topic might take more posts and longer discussion than just listing it as a 'mistake', which would be the basic intent of the Rule Book Feedback thread . Not to clutter that thread further, you are welcome to continue with templating as a whole in this separate thread. Carry on! "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Ankha wrote: > Can you point out cases where the "tap ... to ..." template is not consistent? > > The usage of "tap ... to ..." is consistent and provides structure to the text. > www.vekn.net/rulebook 11 - SPECIAL TERMS Wording Template: “Lock X to do Y”: Some cards use this wording, for instance: superior Bauble, Isanwayen. Such effects can’t be used by locked minions, even by those under a wake effect. These effects require an unlocked minion to be used. Conversely, “Lock X. Do Y” effects (for instance: Redirection) are usable by locked minions under a wake effect. The rule that is supposed to say how "Lock X to do Y" and "Lock X. Do Y." templates work is nicely hidden away in an addendum. > Mewcat wrote: > The idea of costs and effects is quite simple but when we look at the cards and rulings it becomes anything but. The cards don't say "do x to do y". They have every possible ham fisted variation. > It is very hard to even find Lock X To Do Y . Most of them are variations on this. And the argument isn't even that Lock X To Do Y isn't consistent with itself when it is applied. It is that templating is non-existant for the other 50% of cards. Let's play a quick game: Try to get these to fit a template, then decide how they work. Answer for each the template used and if you can play them locked. Lock one of your prey's ready minions and place a corruption counter on that minion. Tap this vampire. This vampire enters combat with the blocking minion. Put this card on any untapped vampire. Tap that vampire; he or she does not untap as normal during his or her controller's untap phase. Burn 1 blood on an untapped vampire and tap that vampire. Tap this reacting vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah. As above, but do not tap this vampire. This Laibon may burn a blood and tap three of his or her Aye to be able to play reaction cards and attempt to block as if untapped for the current action. Tap a ready minion and untap this acting vampire. Tap to give a vampire you control +1 intercept for the current action. Tap a ready minion. This acting vampire inflicts 1 unpreventable damage on that minion. During your untap phase, you may tap up to 2 vampires controlled by your prey or burn an equipment on one of your prey's minions. If you do so, your prey takes control of the Anarch Troublemaker. Tap any untapped minion, and that minion burns 1 blood or life. Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed against any Methuselah by 2. Only usable when this Baali successfully blocks an ally or a younger vampire. Tap this Baali and end the action (with no combat). This Baali inflicts 1 unpreventable damage on the acting minion and each of his or her retainers. Burn a haven on an ally or younger vampire, or tap an ally or younger vampire. As above, and inflict 1 damage on that minion. Tap a younger vampire and put this card on that vampire; you still control this card. This vampire does not untap as normal. The action fails. Tap this reacting vampire. As above, and the acting minion does not untap as normal during his or her next untap phase. Put this card on a ready minion and tap that minion. This minion cannot play cards or cast votes or ballots. This minion does not untap as normal. Tap this Gangrel antitribu. This Gangrel antitribu enters combat with the opposing minion. Tap any ready minion. As above, and that minion burns 1 blood. Only usable by a ready, untapped vampire. Usable when an ally you control is blocked, before combat begins. The combat is canceled; untap the acting minion and tap this modifying vampire. This vampire enters combat with the blocking minion. Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this vampire to cause the action to fail. When a blocking anarch has just completed combat with an acting minion, you may tap this card and a ready untapped anarch you control other than the blocking anarch. That anarch enters combat with the acting minion. You may tap this card as a minion you control announces an action. If the action is blocked, the range of each round of the resulting combat is automatically close. Skip the determine range step each round. Choose 2 ready Toreador you control. The first Toreador's non-bleed actions cannot be blocked. The second Toreador does not untap as normal during the untap phase; tap the second Toreador. Cancel a non-combat card that requires Dementation, Dominate or Presence as it is played (no cost is paid). Tap this vampire. Best of luck. You'll need it.

Excuse me, where did you get the idea that the rulebook post was about listing mistakes? If that's the rationale you're using to move this post, well, I'm sorry, but that's not correct and I think you need to re-read the original post. Also, are you going to move other posts discussing templating here? It's really confusing to jump back and forth between threads. Improvements to templating and the rulebook are not mutually exclusive. From my viewpoint, you're kind of undermining my whole post in an annoying passive-aggressive way by moving it where it does not belong.

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > Also, are you going to move other posts discussing templating here? It's really confusing to jump back and forth between threads. Improvements to templating and the rulebook are not mutually exclusive. From my viewpoint, you're kind of undermining my whole post in an annoying passive-aggressive way by moving it where it does not belong. > > Moderators and admins maintain these guidelines and see to that they are followed. Their word is final. > I will make an exception and explain, as I feel it is required: Moving this discussion to a separate thread is not undermining. Rather, it should reinforce its impact as it won't clutter other topics, or be cluttered by them. The discussion will have more room for growth. This is the reason. You may resume discussion. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

When the rulebook is unclear about cost and requirements. Because cost and requirements doesn't have to be explained clearly in the rulebook because it is in the addendum. That has never been included in a printed rulebook. And that addendum explains a template when half the cards don't even follow any template. It uses the words Tap X To Do Y. Try to find a To Do Y in the list of cards text above. Then using that addendum to say "everything is clear and well explained by this, try to prove me wrong" > > Ankha wrote: > Can you point out cases where the "tap ... to ..." template is not consistent? > > This is the case. The usage of "tap ... to ..." is consistent and provides structure to the text. > Clearly an unrelated discussion that has nothing to do with critiquing the rulebook. It is unclear how to interpret those card texts I listed above by using only what the rulebook describes... Someone even came back to answer me with "Because LSJ said so" instead of using the text in the rulebook to explain what the rules are.

> Kraus wrote: > > > Moderators and admins maintain these guidelines and see to that they are followed. Their word is final. > > > I will make an exception and explain, as I feel it is required: > > Moving this discussion to a separate thread is not undermining. Rather, it should reinforce its impact as it won't clutter other topics, or be cluttered by them. The discussion will have more room for growth. > > This is the reason. You may resume discussion. > Thank you, I am aware that I "may resume discussion." With all due respect, saying that my post is going to clutter other topics, declaring that you are making an "exception" to explain something, and then not answering my question is insulting, pompous, and annoying, respectively. I'll repeat my question: where did you get the idea that the rulebook post was about listing mistakes? I'm asking because, had I understood it as such, I would not have posted there. Perhaps I really misunderstood the intent of that thread?

> 2wayspeaker wrote: > > Let's play a quick game: > Try to get these to fit a template, then decide how they work. > Answer for each the template used and if you can play them locked. > Lock one of your prey's ready minions and place a corruption counter on that minion. Tap this vampire. This vampire enters combat with the blocking minion. Put this card on any untapped vampire. Tap that vampire; he or she does not untap as normal during his or her controller's untap phase. Burn 1 blood on an untapped vampire and tap that vampire. Tap this reacting vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah. As above, but do not tap this vampire. This Laibon may burn a blood and tap three of his or her Aye to be able to play reaction cards and attempt to block as if untapped for the current action. Tap a ready minion and untap this acting vampire. Tap to give a vampire you control +1 intercept for the current action. Tap a ready minion. This acting vampire inflicts 1 unpreventable damage on that minion. During your untap phase, you may tap up to 2 vampires controlled by your prey or burn an equipment on one of your prey's minions. If you do so, your prey takes control of the Anarch Troublemaker. Tap any untapped minion, and that minion burns 1 blood or life. Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed against any Methuselah by 2. Only usable when this Baali successfully blocks an ally or a younger vampire. > Tap this Baali and end the action (with no combat). This Baali inflicts 1 unpreventable damage on the acting minion and each of his or her retainers. Burn a haven on an ally or younger vampire, or tap an ally or younger vampire. As above, and inflict 1 damage on that minion. Tap a younger vampire and put this card on that vampire; you still control this card. This vampire does not untap as normal. The action fails. Tap this reacting vampire. As above, and the acting minion does not untap as normal during his or her next untap phase. Put this card on a ready minion and tap that minion. This minion cannot play cards or cast votes or ballots. This minion does not untap as normal. Tap this Gangrel antitribu. This Gangrel antitribu enters combat with the opposing minion. Tap any ready minion. As above, and that minion burns 1 blood. Only usable by a ready, untapped vampire. Usable when an ally you control is blocked, before combat begins. The combat is canceled; untap the acting minion and tap this modifying vampire. This vampire enters combat with the blocking minion. Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this vampire to cause the action to fail. When a blocking anarch has just completed combat with an acting minion, you may tap this card and a ready untapped anarch you control other than the blocking anarch. That anarch enters combat with the acting minion. You may tap this card as a minion you control announces an action. If the action is blocked, the range of each round of the resulting combat is automatically close. Skip the determine range step each round. Choose 2 ready Toreador you control. The first Toreador's non-bleed actions cannot be blocked. The second Toreador does not untap as normal during the untap phase; tap the second Toreador. Cancel a non-combat card that requires Dementation, Dominate or Presence as it is played (no cost is paid). Tap this vampire. > Best of luck. You'll need it. > No need for luck. In bold you'll find the effects whose cost is locking to do something. Of course, without context, this list is a little dumb since you're mixing actions (requiring an unlocked vampire), reactions (that can be played with a wake effect etc.),cards that stipulate that the minion must be unlocked (in italics), and master cards (Anarch Troublemaker). There are two cards I highlighted in red that have very old cardtext and which are not really consistent. Otherwise, it's pretty straight forward. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I mixed in a little bit of everything (correct ones too, even though none of them actually use your template). Keep in mind your template is 'Tap X To Do Y' and it this rule is hidden in an addendum of the rulebook. > Ankha wrote: > No need for luck. In bold you'll find the effects whose cost is locking to do something. > This Laibon may burn a blood and tap three of his or her Aye to be able to play reaction cards and attempt to block as if untapped for the current action. Variation on the template. The clause does not start with "Tap"and doesn't use "To Do". Still, this is what your new player will be reading. and it's not consistent. You marked 6/25 as following a template. You marked 2/25 as having an explicit "Unlocked Vampire" requirement. You marked 2/25 as outdated unclear cardtext. So we have 8 correctly templated cards, 15 unclear, and 2 definitly wrong card texts. Would it not be better to expand the description in the rulebook? Pretending the rulebook is clear about the 25 above cards is optimistic. > Ankha wrote: > There are two cards I highlighted in red that have very old cardtext and which are not really consistent. Otherwise, it's pretty straight forward. > You may tap this card as a minion you control announces an action. If the action is blocked, the range of each round of the resulting combat is automatically close. Skip the determine range step each round. This is a fun one, According to the current rulebook I can use Storm Sewers on each action, and the only thing you can do to stop it is to answer "because LSJ said so" and that means something is falling short in the rulebook. (hint: it's the section on costs and requirements)

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > It's about the rulebook. Specifically: > > “Lock X to do Y”: Some cards use this wording, for instance: superior Bauble, Isanwayen. Such effects can’t be used by locked minions, even by those under a wake effect. These effects require an unlocked minion to be used. Conversely, “Lock X. Do Y” effects (for instance: Redirection) are usable by locked minions under a wake effect. > Sidebar: I consider this templating to be unnecessary and confusing, especially as it concerns reaction cards and effects. There may be particular cards that rules mongers may consider abuseable. Those cards should be addressed individually since Wake has been around since Jyhad and is easier to understand without splitting hairs about tapping as a cost vs effect. Thanks for taking on the task of discussing templating, I believe it is a barrier to really understanding how VTES is supposed to work. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/