Sabbat Cards

First of all, an introduction. Currently from about 100 sabbat related cards, only a few are used, and there are no real staples the hungry coyotes aside (changed text in bold). No in-sect status card is used at all (sabbat priest, templar, sabbat inquisitor). Sabbat rituals are not used at all (there are 6 entries of stealth ritus, but mostly as token stealth, there is one of harvest rites - and even there deck creator said it sucks, there are some of games of instincts - also creator wanted to get rid of it). Sabbat have no really useful sect-related political card First thing that should be done is introducing sect related keywords on vampires (like anarch or back hand). So we would have vampires with Priest, Templar, Paladin, Pack Leader or Inquisitor on their card text. With this change, current sabbat card should get new print with updated card text that have links with such keywords. Consider Fire Dance. Fire Dance Requires a ready priest, archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. +1 stealth action.Ritual. Put this card on a Sabbat vampire and untap this acting vampire if he is priest. Once each combat, the vampire with this card may change 1 aggravated damage inflicted on him or her to normal damage. Vampire with this card is immune to Rotshreck. A vampire may have only one Fire Dance. Games of Instinct Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. Ritual. Enter combat with an older vampire controlled by another Methuselah. At the end of that combat, if only one combatant is ready, that ready vampire gains blood equal to the opposing vampire's capacity from the blood bank. If this acting vampire is Templar, this action have +1 stealth. Those are just two examples. Then, there should be library card that grant those keywords. Like Pack Leader: Ductus +1 stealth action. Requires a Sabbat vampire. Put this card on this acting Sabbat vampire and untap him or her. Vampire with this card is Ductus. During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood between this vampire and non-Ductus sabbat vampire in your ready or uncontrolled region If sabbat vampire send this vampire into torpor or burm, he may steal this card and 1 from it's former controller. A vampire may have only one Ductus. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

The main reason why most of the sabbat sect cards aren't used is because they only work against other sabbat. But sabbat do have the best discplineless rush card already, Rumble. Abbot, Cardinal Benediction, Eternal Vigilance, Hungry Coyote, that Communal Haven that lets you move stuff around, black forest base... those are at least all sabbat sect cards that I have seen played reasonably often. As for the 'status' cards, I don't see Camarilly Exemplary used either which is what Sabbat Priest is a copy of. They should change the 'Cardinal Sin' cards to work against any vampire regardless of sect, just like the camarilla traditions also work on all sects.

> Lech wrote: > First of all, an introduction. > > Currently from about 100 sabbat related cards, only a few are used, and there are First thing that should be done is introducing sect related keywords on vampires (like anarch or back hand). So we would have vampires with Priest, Templar, Paladin, Pack Leader or Inquisitor on their card text. With this change, current sabbat card should get new print with updated card text that have links with such keywords. Consider Fire Dance. > I really like what you've done here with these three cards. It really brings home the RPG flavor of the Sabbat as well.

The > > Klaital wrote: > main reason why most of the sabbat sect cards aren't used is because they only work against other sabbat. > Not really. Most sabbat cards aren't used because they are not useful enough. Consider those: Harvest Rites 1 +1 stealth action. Requires a Sabbat vampire. Put this card on this acting Sabbat vampire. Once each turn, when the vampire with this card successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional blood. A vampire can have only one Harvest Rites. Looks good in theory ? No. It's like aaron feeding razor, can be used just once each turn, so no hunt freak hunt. But before it's better than just hunting, you have to use it 4 times (-2, -1, 0, +1), it's even worse if you have hungry coyotes on the table (-3,-2, -1, 0, +1). Verdict ? It wont be used, as it waste card slot, action slot and commits the minion to hunting. Fire Dance don't give meaningful bonus, take a slot and require titled vampire. Verdict: useless. Games of Instinct is cornercase, and not really better than bum's rush. More likely worse. Blood Feast 1 +1 stealth action. Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. Each ready Sabbat vampire you control gains 1 blood from the blood bank. You have to have 3 ready vampires to gain 1 blood over regular hunt, 4 to gain as much as you gain from restoration. Good only in lategame. Require good titled vampire. Verdict: useless. Blood of the Sabbat 1 +1 stealth action. Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. Put this card on a Sabbat vampire other than the acting vampire. The vampire with this card gains 1 blood after each successful action he or she performs. A vampire may have only one Blood of the Sabbat. Takes action slot, require 2 turns to pay for itself. Require 2 vampires in play, require title. Verdict: useless. Bloodbath 1 +1 stealth action. Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. Move 2 blood from the blood bank to a ready Sabbat vampire with capacity above 4. Put this card on that vampire. The vampire with this card gains 1 additional vote unless he or she has a title. A vampire may have only one Bloodbath. Title giving equivalent without actually giving a title. the only case where it is useful is foundation exhibit. Require 2 vampires to play, so useless at the start. cost 1 give 2, not bad, but often the blood is wasted as you play it on vampire with full blood. 1 vote on a vampire is bad, thats why nobody plays that cammy card that gives primogen title. Verdict: too weak to be worth playing. Useless. Monomancy is just wallpaper, no point in kicking the dead horse. Esbat +1 stealth action. Requires a Sabbat vampire. Move 2 blood from the blood bank to an untapped Sabbat vampire, or move 1 blood to each of two untapped Sabbat vampires. Require 2 sabbat vampires, give just 2 blood. inferior restoration is better, and that says something about it's powerlevel. Verdict: useless. > Klaital wrote: > But sabbat do have the best discplineless rush card already, Rumble. Abbot, Cardinal Benediction, Eternal Vigilance, Hungry Coyote, that Communal Haven that lets you move stuff around, black forest base... those are at least all sabbat sect cards that I have seen played reasonably often. > Best disciplineless rush is called bum's rush. Rumble gives +1 hand size and can backfire, bums rush give maneuver for -1 hand size. Abbot is good card. So is cardinal benediction and The Hungry Coyotes and Black Forest Base. Communal Haven is worse than Heidelberg and i don't see the reason to play it over it. Eternal Vigilance is tricky care, it can be great but require 1 to play and takes the action, so you are at -2 blood the first time you use it and it burns when you go to torpor. It is not bad, but not great either.I see it most often like prayer cards that might be both used or discarded, unlike good action like GtU that are 90% of time played. > Klaital wrote: > As for the 'status' cards, I don't see Camarilly Exemplary used either which is what Sabbat Priest is a copy of. > I would like to see some camarilla status cards too, like harpy or sheriff. Priest don't see play as it's political action, and would require much time to be better than krc, and even with time, it don't work against allies. Both of those are bad cards. > Klaital wrote: > They should change the 'Cardinal Sin' cards to work against any vampire regardless of sect, just like the camarilla traditions also work on all sects. > Both Cardinal Sins, Monomancy (sorry!), Sacrifice, Vaulderie works only against the sabbat, which is bad design by itself (not to mention that only insubordination is worth playing over other cards in those specific cases when it works). Furthermore, i think that there should be another type of action - trifle cation (just like trifle master). It meas that you can play just one trifle action and untap after succeeding and each next will tap you as normal. Consider Fire Dance Requires a ready priest, archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. +1 stealth action.Ritual. Put this card on a Sabbat vampire. If played by priest it's trifle. Once each combat, the vampire with this card may change 1 aggravated damage inflicted on him or her to normal damage. A vampire may have only one Fire Dance. Or this one: Abbot +1 stealth action. Requires a Sabbat vampire. Trifle. Put this card on this acting vampire. This Sabbat vampire gets +1 intercept against actions directed at his or her controller. A vampire may have only one Abbot. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Don't underestimate the +1 hand size from Rumble, I have found it to be great in decks that like to rush a lot to tune your hand by discarding those extra masters or whatever else clogging your hand when you discard back down to hand size at end of combat.

> Klaital wrote: > Don't underestimate the +1 hand size from Rumble, I have found it to be great in decks that like to rush a lot to tune your hand by discarding those extra masters or whatever else clogging your hand when you discard back down to hand size at end of combat. > I don't underestimate it. It's good card and +1 hand size is helpful. But in most cases bum's rush is better as it saves you cards (you don't have to play as much maneuvers) and is usable even against stupid derange deck and by allies (rushing with carlton with target vitals ?) and by non-sabbat vampires which allow better crypt selection. Knight Templar +1 stealth action. Requires a ready bishop, archbishop, priscus, inquisitor, cardinal or regent. Trifle. Put this card on other non-black hand sabbat vampire. This untitled, non-inquisitor vampire is templar. This templar may enter combat with any vampire as +1 stealth action and equipping melee weapon and armor is trifle for him or her. Any sabbat vampire may call a referedum to burn this card, non-sabbat vampires cannot vote in the referendum. A vampire may have only one Knight Templar. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> But before it's better than just hunting, you have to use it 4 times (-2, -1, 0, +1), it's even worse if you have hungry coyotes on the table (-3,-2, -1, 0, +1). > Once you tool up your vamps, and since they are Sabbat and can combine HR with Coyote and/or Perfectionist and/or Razor..well, it quickly adds up. Yeah, sure, it requires setup, but I very much like that card and can be very useful on midcap vamps (cap 4-6), especially when you combine it with Perfectionists and/or Coyote. I personally very much like that card and have used it to great effect even on tournaments (!Tremere with massive bloat via Rutors, combined with Sunset Strip). Last tournament, and it was very competitive environment, I ended up being ousted only once in four games, no small thanks to 2 Harvest Rites I had. Blood of the Sabbat is awesome for vamps that have built-in rush. Heck, combine it with either Perfectionist or even Creep Show for further effect. Yes, it is not a card you build decks around but there are several crypt setups where it fits perfectly.

> Lech wrote: > I don't underestimate it. It's good card and +1 hand size is helpful. But in most cases bum's rush is better as it saves you cards (you don't have to play as much maneuvers) > Bum's rush gives you a maneuver when you don't need it. If the maneuver matters, your opponent will block and all you will be left with is the -1 hand size.

> Kiddo wrote: > > > But before it's better than just hunting, you have to use it 4 times (-2, -1, 0, +1), it's even worse if you have hungry coyotes on the table (-3,-2, -1, 0, +1). > > > Once you tool up your vamps, and since they are Sabbat and can combine HR with Coyote and/or Perfectionist and/or Razor..well, it quickly adds up. > > Yeah, sure, it requires setup, but I very much like that card and can be very useful on midcap vamps (cap 4-6), especially when you combine it with Perfectionists and/or Coyote. > > I personally very much like that card and have used it to great effect even on tournaments (!Tremere with massive bloat via Rutors, combined with Sunset Strip). Last tournament, and it was very competitive environment, I ended up being ousted only once in four games, no small thanks to 2 Harvest Rites I had. > > Blood of the Sabbat is awesome for vamps that have built-in rush. Heck, combine it with either Perfectionist or even Creep Show for further effect. Yes, it is not a card you build decks around but there are several crypt setups where it fits perfectly. > Please show us the decks you are talking about. It would be intresting to see how you use the cards. Overkill is highly underrated. You know, like in computor games and such.

Remember that, when you don't say where the additionally gained blood comes from, it comes from the same source the initial blood was coming from. Usually this means that Kyoko gets an extra blood when hunting from someone with Hospital Food (but not with Aaron's razor Innbase Discotek, Frankfurt). Kyoko being able to hunt only once each turn doesn't mean she should be able of emptying any 6-cap as an action.

> agzocgud wrote: > Please show us the decks you are talking about. It would be intresting to see how you use the cards. > This is the deck I used in the latest tournament. Earned 9 VP 2 GW in 3 rounds and 1.5 VP (timed out) in the finals. > 2x Selena 6 AUS DOM THA !Tremere:3 > 1x Marino Reymundo Va 9 AUS DOM NEC THA ani archbishop !Tremere:3 > 1x Kij Dansky 8 AUS DOM THA obt priscus !Tremere:2 > 1x Bryan Van Duesen 7 DOM THA aus pre !Tremere:2 > 1x Ladislas Toth, The 7 AUS DOM THA for archbishop !Tremere:3 > 1x Reverend Blackwood 6 DOM THA obf bishop !Tremere:2 > 1x Hannigan 5 AUS THA dom !Tremere:2 > 1x Kurt Strauss 5 DOM aus tha !Tremere:2 > 1x Richard Tauber, Ay 4 AUS tha !Tremere:2 > 1x Brooke 3 dom tha !Tremere:2 > 1x Heinrick Schlempt 2 tha !Tremere:2 > > Library [90 cards] > Action [16] > 4x Govern the Unaligned > 2x Harvest Rites > 2x Recure of the Homeland > 4x Rutor's Hand > 4x Scouting Mission > > Action Modifier [16] > 2x Bonding > 2x Foreshadowing Destruction > 4x Mirror Walk > 4x Seduction > 2x Sleeping Mind, The > 2x Threats > > Ally [12] > 6x Hexaped > 4x Nephandus (Mage) > 2x Succubus > > Combat [12] > 2x Bond with the Mountain > 4x Rego Motus > 6x Wind Dance > > Event [1] > 1x Unmasking, The > > Master [13] > 1x Charisma > 1x Hungry Coyote, The > 1x London Evening Star, Tabloid Newspaper > 1x Sunset Strip, Hollywood > 1x University Hunting Ground > 8x Vessel > > Reaction [20] > 2x Deflection > 4x Eyes of Argus > 2x My Enemy's Enemy > 4x On the Qui Vive > 2x Redirection > 4x Telepathic Counter > 2x Telepathic Misdirection > True, part of its success comes from the fact that this was the only deck which was not obviously some archetype copied from the net. I also didn't play aggressively and it paid off (hence 4 Governs replaced by 4 Scouting Missions and no Conditionings). Some things aren't actually needed in this deck (London Evening Star should have probably been Perfectionist and Succubi would be better replaced by more Nephandi, but it was kinda a theme deck so they stayed). This is the deck I played. Blood of the Sabbat I've personally never played (due to not having it until recently) but I've seen it being used in very successful Tzimi and !Nossi (with Beast) decks. Bottom line, personally, whenever I build a !Tremere deck, there are always 2 Harvest Rites in it. Combining hunts for 3-4 (w Perfectionist/Coyote) and Rutor's Hand means I don't need to multihunt - I hunt once and am free to spend my second action on something, well, more productive, like bleeding my prey.

> Pascal wrote: > Remember that, when you don't say where the additionally gained blood comes from, it comes from the same source the initial blood was coming from. > > Usually this means that Kyoko gets an extra blood when hunting from someone with Hospital Food (but not with Aaron's razor). > > Kyoko being able to hunt only once each turn doesn't mean she should be able of emptying any 6-cap as an action. > Aaron's Razor does give Kyoko extra blood from the vampire she is hunting from. I had a Kyoko deck when she had Aaron's Razor, Harvest Rites, and Hungry Coyote buffing her hunts (used Into the Fire to go to sabbat)

> Klaital wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > Remember that, when you don't say where the additionally gained blood comes from, it comes from the same source the initial blood was coming from. > > > > Usually this means that Kyoko gets an extra blood when hunting from someone with Hospital Food (but not with Aaron's razor). > > > > Kyoko being able to hunt only once each turn doesn't mean she should be able of emptying any 6-cap as an action. > > > Aaron's Razor does give Kyoko extra blood from the vampire she is hunting from. I had a Kyoko deck when she had Aaron's Razor, Harvest Rites, and Hungry Coyote buffing her hunts (used Into the Fire to go to sabbat) > Hm. Yeah. I remembered there is a card that said "from the blood bank", but it's the Innbase Discotek .. Anyways: Yeah, she gets the extra blood from the target with Aaron's razor.

Yeah discotek and anarch free press both give the extra blood from the bank.

Blood Feast actually sounds pretty awesome for a creation rites or weenie deck.

Created vampires are either 1 cap or 2 cap, mostly 1 cap. If they dont have blood they have to hunt. If you plan on giving them disciplines, you take coyote and they hunt for 2. It's waste of slot, i'd create another weenie vampire any day. Ok, Harvest Rites might be useful in !tremere deck (the only one from twda is in !tremere deck) that use rutor's hand or in !ventrue deck that sport high amount of freak drives. Another cornercase situation is trick deck based upon Restricted vitae blood denial deck. Still not any good. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

unless they're empty and tapped

Or on the turn you create them if you use Creation Rites.

Most of those useless sabbat cards would actually be fairly decent if only they wouldn't cost a blood.

> Lech wrote: > *** hack'n'slash *** > Best disciplineless rush is called bum's rush. Rumble gives +1 hand size and can backfire, bums rush give maneuver for -1 hand size. > *** hsals'n'kcah*** > I think, that best disciplinessless rush card for sabbat vampires is Rumble. Rush cards are often blocked, so Bum's Rush just gives you -1 hand size, whereas Rumble doesn't effect by anything. If you are rushing a minion who might put your vampire into torpor with Rumble, you are not playing well enough. Also, losing pool is conditional, while -1 hand size is not. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

What do you guys think about Creep Show? I find this card rather good and I always put one copy in any Sabbat-based block deck (Ahrimanes and Tzimisce). Its trifle-ness is what sells it for me.

As far as i am concerned, there are only 2 archetypes in existence - Perfectionist and Monster. B) Also, i have been toying with dabbler recently for Tzimitze, it is decent with Mind of the wilds and Read the winds + VIC, but still not sold that it outperforms perfectionist and monster. Maybe it's trifleness is what makes it playable. As for Creep Show - i don't like it. If i block My prey/predator, i want to hurt them, not to gain blood.

Cavalier and Sociopath are fairly decent archetypes also, as is capitalist in some decks.

> Pendargon wrote: > As for Creep Show - i don't like it. If i block My prey/predator, i want to hurt them, not to gain blood. > This is how I see it: so, you've managed to stop whatever action your prey/predator/whatever was attempting, so that is half of the job done. Now, both Tzimisce and Ahrimanes don't have that much to say to S:CE (and to a lesser degree to dodge). So, I've already blocked them and I'm the reacting player - if they do not dodge/combat end, I'm going to hurt them. If they do, I get blood for my effort. In a combat-heavy environment, where everybody who can (meaning, every non-Tremere deck) will pack at least 6 S:CE, well, it adds up. And it's trifle. > Pendargon wrote: > As far as i am concerned, there are only 2 archetypes in existence - Perfectionist and Monster. > Lately I'm tempted between Perfectionist and Cavalier for my Ankara-wielding Tremeres. Currently, Perfectionist still looks better, since it works on every action, but still, it is nice to Magic of the Smith/Govern for free and then untap. Decisions, decisions...

Tzimitze : Telepathic tracking and Rotschreck. Bird ladies : well, nothing really

I´d rather play life in the city. That´s one blood garuanteed on a vampire which needs it. Creep show gives about 2-3 blood in a game if you´re lucky but you can´t choose when and on which vampire is the blood is gained. Overkill is highly underrated. You know, like in computor games and such.

I find Creep Show to be really quite useful in a broad range of wall decks, particularly Tzim and Pro-combat walls. Most people with the obvious threat of Agg damage will attempt to 'avoid' the strike and will instead play S:CE or S:D, which is all you want really. Curmudgeon can also be a good choice for a wall deck specifically because while you are forcing your prey to go forwards (by blocking many undirected actions) you can still gain blood from having them go forwards. Both Creepshow and Curmudgeon see use in my Tzim wall (featuring Szechenyi as the 'star' and Corpse Balloons). Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Ok guys, talking about cornercase archetypes that do not belong to sabbat (ok, some of them have sabbat requirement, but it was bad design, fixed by latter archetypes). Point of the Thread is how to fix existing sabbat cards, and how to give sabbat correct feel in the game. Auto-da-fé Requires a cardinal, regent or Inquisitor. Choose a vampire with capacity less than 9. Successful referendum means that vampire's controller burns X pool or burns that vampire, where X is the difference between 9 and that vampire's capacity. Inquisitors have two additional votes during this referendum. More useful for inquisitors. Harvest Rites :Action: +1 stealth action. Requires a Sabbat vampire. Put this card on any Sabbat vampire. Once each turn, when the vampire with this card successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional blood. Priest get +1 stealth during this action. A vampire can have only one Harvest Rites. This way it would be actually useful for clan without innate multiacting, and it's powercurve will be fine. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > Auto-da-fé > To be honest, my problem with this card is not the difficulty to have votes to pass it. Heck, I can even live with the requirement. But to me, this card is in 95% of times less effective than good old KRC. If I were to change the card, I'd do something about its effectiveness.

> Kiddo wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > Auto-da-fé > > > To be honest, my problem with this card is not the difficulty to have votes to pass it. Heck, I can even live with the requirement. But to me, this card is in 95% of times less effective than good old KRC. If I were to change the card, I'd do something about its effectiveness. > Edited it, now it's 9 (and affect 8 caps too). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.