As predicted by somebody (lol) shit hit the fan again

www.white-wolf.com/newsblog/a-message-from-white-wolf "In practical terms, White Wolf will no longer function as a separate entity. The White Wolf team will be restructured and integrated directly into Paradox Interactive, and I will be temporarily managing things during this process. We are recruiting new leadership to guide White Wolf both creatively and commercially into the future, a process that has been ongoing since September." NC Russia

I don't understand of you are happy for this, and why.... Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

I'm actually happy about this news. Good riddance to whoever thought the Chechnya debacle in V5 was a good idea (this is what that blog post is really about). Previous versions of the source material always made it clear that any real-world historical events, or at least recent ones, associated with crimes and atrocities were wholly human endeavors that only tangentially fit into the game world (or at least I ignored anything that was not treated this way). I can understand being "edgy" to garner buzz, but actively "re-writing" such historical events into the game world such as V5 did was a curious (and in my opinion, wrong) decision. It's like whoever was in charge of marketing V5 was like, "Hey, Twitter is a thing, let's include polarizing real-world issues so people will discuss our game about vampires that hasn't been relevant in 20 years!" How about you're fired, dummy. I really hope VTES just ignores V5 for the time being until things get straightened out. I cannot stress how much I don't want a crypt card of vampire Joseph Goebbels, the leader of the Brujah skin-heads, which was direction V5 was heading in...

There is nothing wrong with being edgy AF. Even for sake of being edgy. To be fair, i didn't ready v5, but entire world is one class lower, so for example european countries like Poland are on the Ukraine level (war torn country, massive corruption, murders, looters), and Germany is on Poland level (corrupt politician, poor standard of living, 1/4 real world wages). Which means that rewritting history isn't that unlikely especially that Chechenia up to this day have rl insurgency problems and wahhabi-sponsored terrorism. What this debacle is about btw? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Wait; The dedicated like 10+ pages to Politically Correct "Consider everyone's hippy feelings and butthurtness" in the core book and then let some asshat cut in some real uncouth material that's as insensitive as making jokes over a day old genocide? We totally could've gotten like 3 more metaplot chapters instead of both the PC dribble and the chapter of bad idea. Thank you Paradox for catching this and acting appropriately.

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > I really hope VTES just ignores V5 for the time being until things get straightened out. I cannot stress how much I don't want a crypt card of vampire Joseph Goebbels, the leader of the Brujah skin-heads, which was direction V5 was heading in... > Given that we're a licensed partner, we're not in a position to simply ignore V5. That said, it's not like we're making Chechen Death Camp cards, nor are we being asked to (of course). I'm personally committed to inclusivity and diversity, as well as handling subject matter respectfully and professionally. My interactions with White Wolf have been consistent with that on both sides. As for what the changes in V5 mean for V:TES, we're still sorting that out with White Wolf. Questions I have for White Wolf include: - What is the proper way to represent the Banu Haqim and The Ministry in V:TES? This includes what to do about Quietus and Serpentis. - Should the Brujah and Gangrel be considered officially out of the Camarilla and officially in the Anarchs with respect to V:TES? Should we simply drop the default sect rule? - Relatedly, do we pull Brujah and Gangrel from the V5-Camarilla-themed boxed set we're developing? Do we add in the Banu Haqim? And if so, what's our roadmap for continued development of the Banu Haqim? - If Obtenebration and Necromancy are merging with each other into a new discipline called Oblivion (in the upcoming Chicago By Night book), what does that mean for the Lasombra and Giovanni in V:TES? Should both have Potence, Dominate, and Oblivion as in-clan disciplines? - Should we merge the Sabbat clans back in with their Camarilla counterparts? If so, why should we split the Banu Haqim off from the Assamites? - Are we required/strongly encouraged to make cards for the signature characters in V5? If so, what structure do we need to put in place to accommodate this? (As in, what do we do about Theo Bell, Tegyrius, etc.) We were working on having a meeting with White Wolf about it all this past week, but given the present situation, it's understandable that we'll have to push that meeting back. As it stands, projects we're currently working on are continuing as normal.

Thanks for sharing this, Ben! I am of course sceptical/cautious about some of the possible major changes/retcons that might arise out of this, especially when it comes to decisions that might affect playability/legality of older cards... ...but reading through your list of questions, I do trust that you have exactly the same concerns. "It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality" --- Hardy Range Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager

Looks like default sect rule is in trouble now. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> BenPeal wrote: > - What is the proper way to represent the Banu Haqim and The Ministry in V:TES? This includes what to do about Quietus and Serpentis. > > - If Obtenebration and Necromancy are merging with each other into a new discipline called Oblivion (in the upcoming Chicago By Night book), what does that mean for the Lasombra and Giovanni in V:TES? Should both have Potence, Dominate, and Oblivion as in-clan disciplines? > Just focusing on the discipline issues, have conversations been had already about the development of Dementation in the future and - by extension - the Malkavians? (Since the Dem/Dom issue was evident in the V5 core book, rather than the newer issues surfacing with new/upcoming products.)

> Lech wrote: > Looks like default sect rule is in trouble now. > Indeed, it is more and more complicated to maintain that rule. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> BenPeal wrote: > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > I really hope VTES just ignores V5 for the time being until things get straightened out. > > > Given that we're a licensed partner, we're not in a position to simply ignore V5. > Ignore wasn't the right word. I meant just wait for now. Because of stuff like this: > Ankha wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > Looks like default sect rule is in trouble now. > > > Indeed, it is more and more complicated to maintain that rule. > Anarch has already been changed to a formal sect. In my opinion, this was a hasty decision, but it's one that may prove to not present any problems, unlike the potential change in the quoted post above. But, given that the owners of the source material really don't have their stuff together, is now the best time to be incorporating stuff into VTES? I understand everyone is super eager to make VTES awesome and current, but isn't it best to just wait things out for now? > As for what the changes in V5 mean for V:TES, we're still sorting that out with White Wolf. Questions I have for White Wolf include: [really great questions] > I mean, I really don't see any good answers to those question other than what's obvious right now: either wait and see if certain things in V5 can be incorporated into VTES without messing up what's already established (for example, incorporating some Banu Haqim as Camarilla Assamites and some Oblivion powers as Obtenebration/Necromancy cards), or create Jyhad 2.0 based on V5, with all the new terminology. I'm sure people will have a good plan to move forward. I'm just not sure I can see it yet. Then again, this is why I am not in the hobby games business.

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > and see if certain things in V5 can be incorporated into VTES without messing up what's already established (for example, incorporating some Banu Haqim as Camarilla Assamites and some Oblivion powers as Obtenebration/Necromancy cards) > On Oblivion, it seems like a semi-decent compromise might be to have later groups of Lasombra and Giovanni having the other discipline as a common extra discipline. Plus potentially some dual-discipline cards. Plus some extra Oblivion fluff in the shape of masters or events or vampire specials or something. Perhaps an event that has a flavour of something like Treaty of Laibach, in terms of helping cross-over a little, though hopefully less terrible - perhaps boosting the cross-over rather than creating it, because cards that you only want to play once but which enable the whole strategy are inherently problematic. More tricky with the bloodlines with Necromancy. Particularly Samedi, who would be getting up to 4-5 'clan' disciplines. The others - Harbingers and Kiasyd in particular - could probably handle having a little of the other discipline splashed into them more easily.

Perhaps or card would be answer ? And or (and or ?). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Why not just add a new discipline? Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

Why add yet another discipline? It would just make more overlap between the disciplines (making each less unique.) There are so many combinations that could be used for neat effects. It's already too late to merge disciplines into one another, condensing them. I think Lech has the right idea. Mix and match disciplines for cool or unique effects. Let's look at all the design space that isn't being used: -one card that has a [discipline] OR [discipline]-> same effect (Fae Contortion) -one card that requires [inferior][superior] for an effect (I forget the name...) -no cards that require [discipline][discipline][discipline] -dozens of cards that should require a discipline (i.e. Target Vitals as /) but don't -only a handful of cards requiring just [inferior] with no other effect (ex. Army of Rats) -no cards requiring just [superior] with no other effects -no cards with two effects, both requiring a [superior] Like it or not, Disciplines are this game's color pie. The color pie of VTES should be emphasized and built on, not ignored or, in the case of adding more disciplines, broken even further down. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

Removal of useless disciplines was the only right thing made by V5 team. NC Russia

> Ke. wrote: > Why not just add a new discipline? > Having to re-create a whole bunch of bread-and-butter effects from scratch seems like a poor use of cards and art resources, unless you're planning on doing something New and Exciting with it. Which doesn't seem to be the plan. The hints about Oblivion seem to suggest it's probably going to basically just be Obtenebration and Necromancy blended into one discipline - presumably with some shadow manipulation powers and some necromantic powers available at various levels.

To be fair, dual discipline requirements already work well for HoS, and other cards as well (Scalpel Tongue effectively being a Toreador card, and Shadow Boxing a Nosferatu one). It's a great way within the game rules without creating a new discipline. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

I wouldn't jump the current revisions bandwagon too quickly. Classic material is classic for reason. Finnish Politics!

> Kraus wrote: > To be fair, dual discipline requirements already work well for HoS, and other cards as well (Scalpel Tongue effectively being a Toreador card, and Shadow Boxing a Nosferatu one). It's a great way within the game rules without creating a new discipline. > Scalpel Tongue works just as well for the Brujah, and Brujah antitribu. Not just technically, because they also have Cel/Pre - they turn up in quite a few tournament winning decks. One of the primary reasons those cards work well, though, is that they build off foundations that were already there. Lots of Toreador, !Toreador, Brujah, !Brujah etc. had Cel/Pre long before Scalpel Tongue was invented, and continued to have it long after it was invented. Similar with Shadow Boxing. If you go too far down the OBT+NEC library card route, you essentially exclude all existing vampires from playing the cards, so there's little incentive for that interesting group 2 powerbleed deck to think about trying out some new cards. There are literally two vampires in the game with OBT/NEC, both 10 caps. One is in group 4, so wouldn't be playable with any likely new group 6 vampires developing the theme - group 5 is probably about full for Giovanni, and doesn't have much space for many new Lasombra. So you may well be saying Group 6 only. You do ever so slightly better if you drop to obt+NEC, and pick up one vampire with nec+OBT. (Plus Bartholomew the Kiasyd stranded in group 2.) So this might be an occasion to think about the Elemental Stoicism template of messing with disciplines but not necessarily going to NEC+OBT. Perhaps something like: nec / nec+obt / NEC+obt. obt / nec + obt / nec+OBT. Or if you can keep some of the effects very simple,have an inferior for each of Obt and Nec, somewhat like a fallback level from a bloodlines discipline.

Giovanny, as dumb racist stereotype, should be removed for good, all useful effects from should be moved to . NC Russia

Not nec+obt, Nec OR Obt, having either works. I don't gen how anyone can be stupid enough to suggest Nec+Obt combo for oblivion cards ... Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > I don't gen how anyone can be stupid enough to suggest Nec+Obt combo for oblivion cards ... > It turns out that other people can have opinions that you don't share, while also not being stupid.

Can, but the oblivion ISN'T nec+obt combo, it's one discipline that is shared by Lasombra and Giovanni. Therefore it's stupid to think that they need to possess both classic disciplines to use oblivion cards. You can sell some former serpentis cards as + or + cards, just like you can sell some oblivion cards as + , or even as or with clan bonuses (like torreador +bleed card), but selling as non-existing discipline spread + is insulting other people in this very thread. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Several things: Sects- "Independent " has been a very broad umbrella term for vtes since both sets immediately following "V:TES". Giovanni, Ravnos, FoS, Assamites and others were basically given a "non-sect" then and it continued to exist with the inclusion of Sabbat and Laibon and Anarch was folded into the same "non-sect" as well. It began as "Non-Camarilla" because it was needed to differentiate the 4 indy clans from the previously extant ones. Default sects are messy to have exist, and thier removal is equally as messy, but removal is probably more intuitive for new players learning the game. Fluff wise, Assamites are split. FoS have 2 primary factions, but who knows what the Serpents of the Light are reduced to. "Independent " should make sense for truly unaligned members of both of these clans. Kementeri stands far from FoS and the sects. Tariq stands apart for other reasons. Also, the Assamites loyal to the Sabbat, Tal'Mahe'Ra, Cam(and eastern cam) , etc aren't loyal to the warrior caste led "main" clan. There are also "converts " to Sets ways from other clans. There is no reason to jump to crazy, but Sect isn't a bad design space to look into, since until very recently, 4+ distinct sects in thier own were grouped together with unaligned vamps. Disciplines- Vtes has done blood magics wrong for ages. are tons of separate paths. is more a problem, but I see no reason to worry about them; both could certainly benefit new cards. The smoothest option (and I'm certain everyone will hate this) is to make Oblivion cards that utilize a symbol that is a split between and and make them playable by a vamp with either discipline. Making them literally interchangeable I cant weigh in on until I read the book. Lastly , Paradox Just announced that we should anticipate changes. If Onyx Path rolls out more metaplot stuff, that's probably going to shift things into a far more broadly playable setting than "gens 8to16, nothing else." And cramming the Sabbat and several bloodlines into a forgotten closet somewhere. May as well wait for the dust to settle. What we have previously done that was jumping right on later retconned metaplot stuff includes Gilbraiths Red Death novel tie in. Opposite that, we still have the extinct!Tremere. For years. Its probably worth looking into antitribbu merging, especially with !malks and Madness Network, and antitribbu clan cards that enable things, like is there some torrie tech that breaks palla grande or something? The one thing that's easily worth looking into is Tremere splitting between remaining cam and Carnas faction (which is, if memory serves, backed by Tremere-in-Goratrix-body) Also, Ben, maybe we could be involved metaplot wise: A global storyline to determine the new clan of death between Giovanni, Samedi, HoS. (Maybe add a stipulation about mixed crypts with old Cappadocians being Cappadocian)

> Lech wrote: > Can, but the oblivion ISN'T nec+obt combo, it's one discipline that is shared by Lasombra and Giovanni. Therefore it's stupid to think that they need to possess both classic disciplines to use oblivion cards. > Again, people can have different opinions to you on how best to implement something in V:TES without being stupid. Having cards that include lots of obt or nec levels (possibly including superiors) is not necessarily simple in terms of its impact on the power-level of cards - including whether it provides a significant boost to existing crypt cards. Does upping the number of vampires with, say, dom/obt and dom/nec (who now meaningfully combine into one crypt) who can play cross-over Oblivion cards have unpleasant side-effects, for example? It's also worth thinking carefully about the Bloodlines. Will all of them still exist in V5? Will they exist in the same way? For example, if Necromancy and Obtenebration merge to form Oblivion, I could imagine a future V5 Samedi dropping to three clan disciplines (Obft/For/Than) - but with some more necromantic-themed powers ending up in an expanded Thanatosis. Would Black Chantry/White Wolf/Paradox then want, thematically, V:TES Samedi equally involved in Oblivion, because they keep playing all those Oblivion cards available to Obt or Nec? If Samedi aren't part of V5 (or aren't part of it for some considerable time), do BC/WW/P have views on whether Oblivion-inspired V:TES cards should be easily accessible to V:TES Samedi? Has anyone started having any of these discussions? Of course, keep telling yourself that people with different concerns to you are stupid, if that helps.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > Having cards that include lots of obt or nec levels (possibly including superiors) is not necessarily simple in terms of its impact on the power-level of cards - including whether it provides a significant boost to existing crypt cards. Does upping the number of vampires with, say, dom/obt and dom/nec (who now meaningfully combine into one crypt) who can play cross-over Oblivion cards have unpleasant side-effects, for example? > > > > Of course, keep telling yourself that people with different concerns to you are stupid, if that helps. > > > Higher and better crypt selection for oblivion users isn't that concerning when we consider that all clans have already double crypt except Lasombra, Ravnos, Assamites and Giovanni. Assuming that normal necromancy and obtenebration cards are here to stay, we can assume that including off-clan members in typical decks isn't that likely. It's wholly different subject when we ban all nec/obt cards and give them new :OBL: discipline from the ground up, but i doubt it will happen at all. There are multiple valid concerns, but creation of OBT+NEC combo requiring both disciplines isn't one of them. Feel free to be offended by this point. > Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > Not nec+obt, Nec OR Obt, having either works. I don't gen how anyone can be stupid enough to suggest Nec+Obt combo for oblivion cards ... > > Forum wrote: > But, remember to criticize ideas, not people. Please avoid: > > • Name-calling > • Ad hominem attacks > For an offense to the forum guidelines, consider yourself duly warned. I trust you know what being civil means. Act accordingly. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Lech wrote: > Higher and better crypt selection for oblivion users isn't that concerning when we consider that all clans have already double crypt except Lasombra, Ravnos, Assamites and Giovanni. > It occurs to me that designers may have considered that when designing and developing previous groups, and the disciplines to go alongside them. There are some very fearsome decks out there for those clans, which may well have developed in a quite different way if they had double the crypt to play with. Giovanni Powerbleed can be really extremely good, and reasonably resistant to bounce given the power (i.e. not a ton of stealth) nature of it, but the Giovanni have a harder time putting together a super-optimized crypt than, say, the Dementation Malks and !Malks. Lasombra breed-boon is, for my money, one of the best breed-boon options in the game. Ravnos Week of Nightmares is terrifying, but you don't have a sideline of Ravnos antitribu to survive the week. Similarly, The Eldest are Kholo with Tsunda is immense, but her supporting cast are more limited than a similar deck from a clan with a discipline spread that has a wider crypt selection might allow for. See also: the Bloodlines aren't designed in the same way as a full clan, because when something is different it makes sense to consider its differences in context.

In general, I think the whole "default sect" doesn't work properly. It kind of makes sense if vampires appeared out of thin air, in which case they should be from the default sect (like, if suddenly a random gangrel appeared, it would probably be independent, wouldn't it?). But right now almost all of the instances in which new vampires are introduce into the game besides influencing them out from the crypt are by embracing them (or similar effects, like the troops). I sincerely don't understand why Anarch childes came into the world with a Camarilla or sabbat visa. Is there a Sabbat priest always lurking behind every single anarch lasombra waiting for a new childe to be born to spread the word of the sabbat? Special mention to the freaking third tradition and creation rites, because not even freaking princes can convince their lasombra childe to stay as a camarilla. An inherited sect makes the most sense, maybe with certain exceptions (which I think should be specified on the card).

> Ratadin wrote: > In general, I think the whole "default sect" doesn't work properly. It kind of makes sense if vampires appeared out of thin air, in which case they should be from the default sect (like, if suddenly a random gangrel appeared, it would probably be independent, wouldn't it?). But right now almost all of the instances in which new vampires are introduce into the game besides influencing them out from the crypt are by embracing them (or similar effects, like the troops). I sincerely don't understand why Anarch childes came into the world with a Camarilla or sabbat visa. Is there a Sabbat priest always lurking behind every single anarch lasombra waiting for a new childe to be born to spread the word of the sabbat? Special mention to the freaking third tradition and creation rites, because not even freaking princes can convince their lasombra childe to stay as a camarilla. > > An inherited sect makes the most sense, maybe with certain exceptions (which I think should be specified on the card). > That should land in the next RTR ! Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> Lech wrote: > Can, but the oblivion ISN'T nec+obt combo, it's one discipline that is shared by Lasombra and Giovanni. Therefore it's stupid to think that they need to possess both classic disciplines to use oblivion cards. > If Nec and Obt are merging into a single discipline (which I consider stupid in the first place, as I do most of the metaplot stuff I keep hearing about) Then the easiest solution to this would be to introduce a line of new cards where you get the same effect for either necromancy or obtenebration. This is in my opinion the most elegant way to introduce this metaplot change into VTEs without invalidating old cards. What these effects would be, is another discussion. Obviously we need to be careful about this, if for example Giovanni would suddenly gain huge influx of stealth out of these cards. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > Then the easiest solution to this would be to introduce a line of new cards where you get the same effect for either necromancy or obtenebration. This is in my opinion the most elegant way to introduce this metaplot change into VTEs without invalidating old cards. What these effects would be, is another discussion. Obviously we need to be careful about this, if for example Giovanni would suddenly gain huge influx of stealth out of these cards. > That sort of issue is why I'm unsure about it being the best solution all round. Do you have to end up designing quite niche effects, such that it doesn't tip things too far one way or the other for either clan? e.g. a Giovanni shamblers deck might rush to take advantage of some blood gain that might be a fine addition for Obtenebration on its own. I wonder if there might be some mileage in the Bloodlines model - a card that offers three levels: nec/obt/OBT, or obt/nec/NEC. The key point being that the nec and obt levels can be different, if you want them to be.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > I wonder if there might be some mileage in the Bloodlines model - a card that offers three levels: nec/obt/OBT, or obt/nec/NEC. The key point being that the nec and obt levels can be different, if you want them to be. > Nowe we are talking, there is nothing wrong with such solution, and in some cases it might be preffered over straight Nec or Obt combo cards. Sometimes even wording on inf "if have superior,may do something more" would be preffered. There are a lot of good solutions.... Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

I've been sitting on this for a minute but: Shouldn't we wait for Chicago by Night (v58.2, I think we're on...) before forming an opinion on Oblivion/ . I feel like with Cam/Anarch books we almost have a whole game in V5, and there are directions to go with the two disciplines but let's face it, we don't know what they're doing yet. Look @ V5 . Could we have known that serpentis would now be supplanted with it, when only the sloppy heart of darkness ability seemed like ? I made a joke and moved on. We only got 2 new (that feels weird to type) clans in FoS and Assamites in 2 books that feel like chapters one would cut/edit from core book. Are we getting Tzimisce, Giovanni, AND Lasombra in CBN? Or just the clans. I know I'm just complaining because I started with 2nd ed and revised (and liked V20 stuff) but I prefer a diverse and playable game out the core book, not ancillae and younger minus 5 clans, even with interesting new systems. Point is, metaplot aside, we can safely say it's worth waiting to jump to conclusions. But seriously, Brujah and Gangrel in cam in 2019 isn't taboo (V5 has Inyanga, Art Morgan, Rosa Hernandez, Critias, Damien, and Donal O'Connor mentioned canonically if the top of my head. ) Especially since we've been pretending!Tremere still exist. The discussion needs to now be, seriously, do we merge antitribbu clans with base?

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > I've been sitting on this for a minute but: > > Shouldn't we wait for Chicago by Night (v58.2, I think we're on...) before forming an opinion on Oblivion/ . > Ideally I'd get a solid idea of what the plans for Oblivion (and a whole lot of other things) are well before the release of CbN v58.2 so that I can create a good roadmap for development of new material. That's the main thing I'm trying to do right now with respect to all of that. That said, don't let that stop you all from speculating and brainstorming. It's good to see ideas and options bouncing around. Some replies to some comments and questions: > See also: the Bloodlines aren't designed in the same way as a full clan, because when something is different it makes sense to consider its differences in context. > When Mike and I were designing Lost Kindred, we had a "full clan" approach rather than the original "companion clan" approach in the first Bloodlines set. > Just focusing on the discipline issues, have conversations been had already about the development of Dementation in the future and - by extension - the Malkavians? > Yes, some. There's still a fair amount of missing information and things to decide on. > It's wholly different subject when we ban all nec/obt cards and give them new :OBL: discipline from the ground up, but i doubt it will happen at all. > Just to be clear, I have a lot of difficulty envisioning a scenario where we have to ban all Necromancy and Obtenebration cards. I certainly have no intention of doing so.

> BenPeal wrote: > > > See also: the Bloodlines aren't designed in the same way as a full clan, because when something is different it makes sense to consider its differences in context. > > > When Mike and I were designing Lost Kindred, we had a "full clan" approach rather than the original "companion clan" approach in the first Bloodlines set. > I didn't mean "treat them as sidekicks". I meant more: you only have a half-dozen or so vampires who can go together, with your key discipline. You wouldn't design the overall package for, say, Salubri antitribu and Valeren in the same way as you would for Toreador who have 20-something vampires of their own in most groups, a similar number of Toreador antitribu, and large cross-over potential with clans that share disciplines with them, where vampires have appropriate off-clan disciplines, useful specials etc. Like, any time someone designs a Dementation card, a legitimate and sensible review process might include judging it against the capabilities of a weenie Dementation deck, that can include, say, 10-12 different, small-medium vampires with Dementation, flip them out quickly, and go. So what happens if someone uses a hypothetical new card in that situation? Will it be abusive, will it be disruptive etc? When designing a new, say, Thanatosis card, the same considerations don't apply - there aren't intended to be lots of Samedi, there aren't intended to be lots of vampires with Thanatosis, every group pair includes at least some fatties, so your possible crypts looks very different - much more double and trebling up required, far fewer options, harder to cast off a vampire whose design is awkward for you because there aren't many alternatives. So the process of balancing cards and strategies for the Samedi would take those sorts of differences into account at one end of the spectrum, and the Toreador/!Toreador with huge dollops of cel/pre available elsewhere at the other end, and a bunch of other clans at different points along that spectrum.

"Usable only by Sabbat Toreador" "& "Usable only by Camarilla Todearor" Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > "Usable only by Sabbat Toreador" > "& > "Usable only by Camarilla Todearor" > Palla Grande Toreador Unique master. Put this card in play and put 3 debauchery counters on it. Sabbat Toreador get +1 bleed. Remove a debauchery counter from this card at the end of each of your turns. Burn this card if it has no counters. Aching Beauty Master Toreador [2 Pool] Master. Put this card on a non-Sabbat Toreador. If this Toreador is blocked, the controller of the blocking minion burns 1 pool (before combat occurs, if any). It's not hard, but the question is, do we keep the antitribbu ftom the good cards like New Carthage, Madness Network, and TGB? Obviously all of those need to work on indy and Anarch. Then we look down the other rabbit hole; should we just keep certain (palla grande) cards Sabbat only and make all others fair game? Demonstration, Ephor, Island of Yairos, directorate assembly, and ventrue headquarters dont seem problematic really. Aching beauty, childing muse, enchanted marionette, are whatever. The only oddball stuff would be like Death seeker for Salubri. I think now the time for such talks though.

CbN only has Lasombra, no other clans, those will come in later books, it seems they are putting one clan per book.

R E B O O T V T E S E B O O T V T E S

doing away with the antitribu clans would make the game much easier to distribute. Clan packs, and then politics packs. and honestly, is there a driving need in the game to have praxis seizure and Crusade cards? couldn't these also be consolidated?

> self wrote: > doing away with the antitribu clans would make the game much easier to distribute. Clan packs, and then politics packs. > I've been thinking about expansion packs for the upcoming Starters. You know, these would contain more vampires for the Starter ( = most likely clan) and especially some discipline cards. With these one could rebuild the Starter to make a totally different kind of deck; say, it used to be Presence tap and bleed but now it it politics deck. And because of the discipline cards (well, non-Vampire cards) these would most likely be rather useful for all kinds of other decks too. These would easily be stocked by stores ( = not too many SKUs) and would work as kinda replacement for boosters. Sorta cross between the big and small expansions of FFG's Living Card Games if you will. A very easy way to reintroduce a lot of core cards to the game. Four Starters, four Starter Expansions. If more different Starters will be printed in the future keep on doing this and you'll soon have core set's worth of cards easily available. If new Starters are sow to arrive, make another four new Starter Expansions for the same "old" Starters. > self wrote: > and honestly, is there a driving need in the game to have praxis seizure and Crusade cards? couldn't these also be consolidated? > How do you propose getting Prince/Archbishop titles for Vampires who do not yet posses such titles? Yeah, the situation is a lot different with these as it was back in ´95 but I hardly consider this a problem let alone pressing need. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > > > self wrote: > > and honestly, is there a driving need in the game to have praxis seizure and Crusade cards? couldn't these also be consolidated? > > > How do you propose getting Prince/Archbishop titles for Vampires who do not yet posses such titles > Consolidated doesn't mean eliminated. Crusade-y/Praxis-y: Leiper's Fork Political Action Title Successful referendum means the acting Camarilla vampire becomes the Prince of Leiper's Fork or the acting Sabbat vampire becomes the Archbishop of Leiper's Fork. Put this card on the acting vampire to represent that title.

All this nonsense with countless different titles should be removed. NC Russia

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > > > > self wrote: > > > and honestly, is there a driving need in the game to have praxis seizure and Crusade cards? couldn't these also be consolidated? > > > > > How do you propose getting Prince/Archbishop titles for Vampires who do not yet posses such titles > > > Consolidated doesn't mean eliminated. > > Crusade-y/Praxis-y: Leiper's Fork > Political Action > Title > Successful referendum means the acting Camarilla vampire becomes the Prince of Leiper's Fork or the acting Sabbat vampire becomes the Archbishop of Leiper's Fork. Put this card on the acting vampire to represent that title. > Of course. I just leafed through too quickly... :/ Thanks for pointing it out! Could work. Downside is that this would make some of the all star weenie voter decks stronger as you wouldn't need to optimize the ratio between Praxes Seizures and Crusades (or choose between cam & sab Crypts). Not sure if making it easier for voter weeneies is what we really want... :/ Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > Could work. > Downside is that this would make some of the all star weenie voter decks stronger as you wouldn't need to optimize the ratio between Praxes Seizures and Crusades (or choose between cam & sab Crypts). Not sure if making it easier for voter weeneies is what we really want... :/ > To what degree is that Actually A Thing, though? Specifically the bit about having to choose between cam and sabbat crypts and/or balancing Praxis Seizures and Crusades in the same deck? There sometimes exist certain problems that seem like a huge deal on paper, but in effect end up not being a problem due to table politics.

If concerned about giving titles to weenies, just put a capacity restriction of 5+ on the card. Traveller Card Game

> BenPeal wrote: > - Should we merge the Sabbat clans back in with their Camarilla counterparts? If so, why should we split the Banu Haqim off from the Assamites? > An alternative thought. It seems like the new WoD might(*) be going down the route of having the key fight for players in the world being Camarilla vs Anarchs, with the Sabbat being the evil doers off in the distance - possibly a greater emphasis on them being NPCs etc? If that's the case, then if V:TES moves towards merging the antitribu clans into the main clans, it is (in general) likely to be much easier for them to freely mingle with each other. As things currently stand, there are game-based incentives to having the Sabbat clans separate from the Camarilla counterpart, such as having a greater likelihood of being able to play clan cards because you have the right clan out. e.g. a heavily mixed crypt may want to play the Sabbat version of the hunting ground when it's got three Camarilla vampires out and the only Sabbat vampire in their uncontrolled region is a 10 cap, just due to the randomness of shuffling. If they're going down a route of Camarilla vs Anarchs vs (more likely to be GM-driven) Sabbat, would new White Wolf/Paradox prefer a situation where players are more likely to play Camarilla decks and Sabbat decks as more separate enterprises? (*) Might, maybe, a possibility. I am not saying this is a certainty, just trying to read the tea leaves.

Precisely the sort of thing that Paradox will need to discuss with Onyx Path, whoever else will write WW stuff, and BC; I'm cool in the dark, but Vtes has a larger Sabbat component than Anarch component, so it's fine if White Wolf/Paradox does either thing. But if Sabbat is going to become so widely detached from its previous state that its more like a tiny faction (what we know is they had another civil war, the crusade-favoring side won, and the rest who lived stayed behind in small numbers or went Anarch or Cam. ) This is the information we need to proceed. Given the one-clan-per-book method of release, like the slowest peep show on earth (if you overlook George RR Martin's writing pacing) , its roughly 2020 before we get enough of the big picture, since they seem focused on north America and Europe. Damn shame, since the Drowned Legacies easily look interesting, and the Sabbat, Beconing, and other metaplot crucial things are all in the middle east. City Gangre were thrown up as much more sabbat in lined than thier counterparts, but I dont recall a mention in the 3 V5 books about them yet. Knight Ventrue where more Sabbat esque at the founding, but I don't recall thier mention either in V5. Everything else, including Lasombra and Tzimisce, are up in the air until we get a book. What if the Sabbat Gehenna Crusaders found a way to mystically deviate thier blood to be immune to the Beckoning? Seems distracting in a war, no? But we have nothing yet.

I think the easiest thing would be to create a new VTES set that is separate from the old one, but 100% compatible, similar to how crypt cards are split into groups. This hypothetical set would be the equivant of a new group, which can't use the old group's cards, and vice versa. To be clear, none of the current VTES cards would be compatible with the new ones (old and new protean cards not interchangable, for example) , but they all still use the same rules, so they can compete with each other in the same environment. It’s a reboot which doesn’t piss off players who are already invested in the game, allows the new set to develop along with the new meta, and gives tons of design space for BC to expand with new product. It also allows VTES to truly become an anthology game that represents the entirety of Vampire: The Masquerade’s history.

> Cat_in_Exile wrote: > I think the easiest thing would be to create a new VTES set that is separate from the old one, but 100% compatible, similar to how crypt cards are split into groups. This hypothetical set would be the equivant of a new group, which can't use the old group's cards, and vice versa. > > To be clear, none of the current VTES cards would be compatible with the new ones (old and new protean cards not interchangable, for example) , but they all still use the same rules, so they can compete with each other in the same environment. > I quite like this idea in a lot of ways, but have been mulling it over for some time and started wondering about how you'd handle some nasty edge cases. For example: Can Darius Styx use a new retainer that he gets that requires Oblivion? Can he use a new retainer at all? Similar questions about Erciyes Fragment? Fast Hands? More or less any card that can take someone else's cards? Can a new vampire steal an old Powerbase: Montreal, and can your new vampires get blood from it? What about The Rack? Can I elect a new Toreador to be Toreador Justicar with an old TJ card? Is it intended that a new vampire who is a Sabbat Toreador gets an additional vote in the old TJ vote? (This can happen now technically, of course, but being a Sabbat Toreador is very rare with existing cards, but could be very common on new cards.) Would a new Toreador Justicar card say "...each Camarilla Toreador gets...", confusing everyone when the old one is played? If I steal a vampire in any fashion across the old/new boundary - say, I play old Temptation or Graverobbing on your new vampire - what happens when I steal it? Can your new vampire play my old cards, where they match up? There's also a more general question about re-printing all the bread and butter abilities that exist in disciplines and that exist in the new WoD with similar/identical names. Some simple things like +stealth, +intercept etc. are probably going to look very similar, if they're intended to be of a comparable power level to (good) existing cards. If we get a chunk of cards that re-use old V:TES names and are pretty similar (or identical), that might get confusing fast, especially if a new player gets hold of an old card with the same name as a new card and puts it in their deck in place of new card, not realising the difference. Or you have to avoid using names for new V:tM discipline powers that match old V:TES cards, which seems to undermine the ability to evoke new V:tM.

My thoughts for some of these such as taking control of cards from the old set that are in play is that, yeah, sure. I'd want both sets to play in the same environment, so anything in play is fair play. Same with decks from old sets taking control of new cards. Frankly, a lot of old cards would need to be ported over with the same names and any unique cards in either set would still contest each other, regardless of which group they came from. Easy ways of differentiating the sets could include a distinct overhaul of card design, simply using the Set-Grouping indicator on certain cards (although that makes it more complicated, so not big on that idea), or, just like some crypt cards like Anarch Convert use can be used in any group, crossover staples could have an ANY group indicator. I don't have answers to all of your questions, because it was more of a concept I was putting forth, but I'd want all cards interacting normally once they hit the board. Vampires from G4 can graverob G1 vampires, and I don't think it needs to be different here. The only real complication you mentioned that I don't have a solution for is whether/how they'd use disciplines after, which would need further thought. As for Darius or any other minions with similar special text, having given it minimal thought, I don't see why not.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > Can Darius Styx use a new retainer that he gets that requires Oblivion? Can he use a new retainer at all? Similar questions about Erciyes Fragment? Fast Hands? More or less any card that can take someone else's cards? Can a new vampire steal an old Powerbase: Montreal, and can your new vampires get blood from it? What about The Rack? Can I elect a new Toreador to be Toreador Justicar with an old TJ card? Is it intended that a new vampire who is a Sabbat Toreador gets an additional vote in the old TJ vote? (This can happen now technically, of course, but being a Sabbat Toreador is very rare with existing cards, but could be very common on new cards.) Would a new Toreador Justicar card say "...each Camarilla Toreador gets...", confusing everyone when the old one is played? If I steal a vampire in any fashion across the old/new boundary - say, I play old Temptation or Graverobbing on your new vampire - what happens when I steal it? Can your new vampire play my old cards, where they match up? > 1. Yes, he can. 2. Yes, can steal and use, just can't have in deck. 3. Yes you can, if you somehow manage to get the TJ card during the game. 4. I think there should be errata to old TJ, as it make no sense that anarch/indep torries get additional votes anyway. 5. Yes, if he have OBLIVION he can play obt and nec cards. Anyway, the easiest way to make those separate is to make graphical clues on discipline icons, layout and other stuff to make those distinct. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

So, what's the end game? Gradually replace everything? Some points are GOLDEN. But as a whole, the not mixing thing seems a barrier. Of course, new Pro being on snakes and not doing agg claws is a considerable thing. We are quite far out from Oblivion books, so cant comment yet. But, it's not without merit. I just think maybe dont touch your Nadimas of the past but future snakes have not and future do things , for example.

> Lech wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > Can Darius Styx use a new retainer that he gets that requires Oblivion? Can he use a new retainer at all? Similar questions about Erciyes Fragment? Fast Hands? More or less any card that can take someone else's cards? (etc.) > > > 1. Yes, he can. > (etc.) > So then there's a bigger question of why - if old vampires can use new cards and new vampires can use old cards, when they collide - why they can't be put together in the same decks from the start. (Which is what the original proposition was.) If we have to do all the hard work of solving the problems of how the cards interact - because they can interact when stolen/borrowed etc., or perhaps during some sort of sealed deck/draft event? - then it seems a bit glitchy to not let new vampires with Protean just use old Protean cards. It also seems problematic where, say, a new set of cards get printed with some exciting new tech and strategy, which old vampires using only old library cards can't beat - or find excessively hard to beat, perhaps only using a few strategies. (Why not eliminate this during playtest? That would be lovely, but some uses for cards slip through playtests and aren't spotted for ages.)