Jacob, the Glitch and Soul Gem

Hello again! I have been working on a Turbo-Jacob deck, and wanted to make sure of the interaction between his special text and Soul Gem. So I searched the Forum rulings and, as luck would have it, I actually found a Turbo-Jacob deck that was posted by someone on the rules team, and it does seem to be designed with the assumption that a Gem-replaced Jacob would be filled to 6 blood. That’s reassuring, but I know that I may still meet some resistance at my local playgroup, where there is no shortage of rules lawyering (of which I am also guilty). The problem is that Soul Gem does not read, “move them to your ready region AND THEN fill them to capacity”; it is worded to move them to the ready region WITH blood…equal to…capacity. This could be interpreted to mean that you calculate what counts as bringing them to capacity before they enter play, which would be before Jacob’s special text is activated to increase his capacity. So my questions are: 1. When Jacob the Glitch burns with the Soul Gem and is replaced by a new Jacob, does the new Jacob get 6 blood, or only 2? 2. If 6 blood instead of 2 (which I believe is the case), can you explain why the timing works out that way? Thanks very much! -Bill Troxel Jacob, The Glitch [THA] Tremere antitribu Capacity: 2 Group: 3 Sabbat: Jacob's capacity is increased by 4 while he is controlled. Your predator can use a master phase action to discard a master card to force you to discard your hand. Draw back up to your hand size afterward. Soul Gem of Etrius Equipment Unique equipment. If this vampire is burned, draw the top card from your crypt. If it is younger, put the Soul Gem on him or her and move him or her to your ready region with blood from the blood bank equal to his or her capacity; otherwise, move that card to your uncontrolled region (and burn the Soul Gem). If bearer is diablerized, the diablerizing vampire cannot take the Soul Gem. -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

> Killiam wrote: > 1. When Jacob the Glitch burns with the Soul Gem and is replaced by a new Jacob, does the new Jacob get 6 blood, or only 2? > 2. If 6 blood instead of 2 (which I believe is the case), can you explain why the timing works out that way? > Based on two separate rulings, it appears that: - when Soul Gem checks on a Jacob in the crypt, he is a 2 cap - when that Jacob is brought into play by a Soul Gem, he gets blood when in play, so is a 6 cap, with 6 blood. [LSJ 20040523] > LSJ wrote: > >>as far as i can see, Jacob the Glitch is moved to the ready region > >>first (thus becoming a 6 cap), and _then_ gains blood equal to his > >>capacity (6). Thus burning him on a force of will becomes a hell of a > >>lot trickier. > > > > Yeah, maybe ... LSJ ?? > > Yeah. > This second ruling is about a Jacob that would self-contest so he burns, and triggers the Soul Gem again, and that one is ruled to be a 2 cap. So the Jacob in the crypt should also be seen as a 2 cap, I think, because when you draw it and check the capacity, it hasn't entered play and isn't controlled. [LSJ 20090518] > LSJ wrote: > > Suppose I control Jacob the Glitch and some 3-capacity vampire with a > > Soul Gem of Etrius. The 3-cap burns, and I reveal Jacob the Glitch as > > the top vampire of my crypt. The incoming Jacob burns per the rules > > against self-contesting, triggering the Soul Gem again. Is the burning > > copy of Jacob considered a 2-cap or a 6-cap when checking against the > > next vampire on my crypt (i.e., is he considered controlled before he > > is burned)? > > He's a 2-cap. >

"- when that Jacob is brought into play by a Soul Gem, he gets blood when in play, so is a 6 cap, with 6 blood." But what is the explanation for why he "gets blood when in play"? By the card text it looks like he comes into play WITH the blood already on him: "move him or her to your ready region with blood from the blood bank equal to his or her capacity" This is the question that I really need an answer to for my play group. -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

I would love if someone went back through all those LSJ rulings and put them in one place and re-ruled on them. As far as I know, LSJ isn't involved in the game any more so these nonsense rulings can be laid to rest. "I'd really love to play this game!" "Ok! Go search some defunct google group for rulings from some guy who used to design cards for this game. And yes, we're aware they are inconsistent and not at all intuitive."

> DJHedgehog wrote: > I would love if someone went back through all those LSJ rulings and put them in one place and re-ruled on them. > is that not what these are? www.vekn.net/general-rulings www.vekn.net/card-rulings Also - i played the jacob turbo deck recently. I figured he fills to 2, not 6: Jacob's capacity is increased by 4 while he is controlled. (easy enough) "move him or her to your ready region with blood from the blood bank equal to his or her capacity" (timing here is what makes it tricky) If it had said 'move him or her to the ready region, then add blood from the blood back equal to their capacity' id say 6 but it says 'with' 'with' to me says you already need to have checked this before you move them out of uncontrolled. then again, i dont make rules /shrug

Regarding: www.vekn.net/general-rulings www.vekn.net/card-rulings --I think that they are a good start, but far from exhaustive. For example, Jacob the Glitch does not appear in card-rulings, despite there being specific rulings from LSJ cited in this thread. That said, the long work of sorting and rehashing rulings is more or less what we're doing here in the forums by re-asking the old questions under the new rules mongers. Think of it as a group effort, paving this long highway stone by stone. Best, -Bill -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

> Killiam wrote: > But what is the explanation for why he "gets blood when in play"? By the card text it looks like he comes into play WITH the blood already on him: > If it helps, assume LSJ thought there were two options that could have worked, and picked one. Many rulings work that way - something had to work one way or the other, and a choice was picked. If you want to think about it more deeply, "with" doesn't necessarily imply the two things arrive simultaneously. Last night, I went for dinner with the CEO. That doesn't necessarily mean we arrived together. Since it doesn't require simultaneity, doing things sequentially is the default for V:TES - move card, conjure counters. If you don't like that, assume it was an arbitrary choice between two options.

> narpassword wrote: > > > DJHedgehog wrote: > > I would love if someone went back through all those LSJ rulings and put them in one place and re-ruled on them. > > > is that not what these are? > > www.vekn.net/general-rulings > www.vekn.net/card-rulings > I don't see Jacob, The Glitch anywhere on those lists. Time to dig through the google vaults of LSJ's random rulings!

> DJHedgehog wrote: > I would love if someone went back through all those LSJ rulings and put them in one place > Thanks so much for volunteering yourself to do that.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > If you want to think about it more deeply, "with" doesn't necessarily imply the two things arrive simultaneously. Last night, I went for dinner with the CEO. That doesn't necessarily mean we arrived together. Since it doesn't require simultaneity, doing things sequentially is the default for V:TES - move card, conjure counters. > > If you don't like that, assume it was an arbitrary choice between two options. > It does however imply things were organised before that dinner happened. If we are not resolving simultaneously - and instead doing things ordered - why are we jumping out of one card resolution to resolve the effects of the crypt card mid movement?

> narpassword wrote: > It does however imply things were organised before that dinner happened. > > If we are not resolving simultaneously - and instead doing things ordered - why are we jumping out of one card resolution to resolve the effects of the crypt card mid movement? > When you're filling up Jacob, is he controlled? If so, his card text says he's 4 capacity bigger. If you go the other way and say he's a 2 cap, why are you ignoring his quite clear card text?

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > DJHedgehog wrote: > > I would love if someone went back through all those LSJ rulings and put them in one place > > > Thanks so much for volunteering yourself to do that. > I think the best solution is to just ignore all lsj rulings and have someone make sensible rulings. Easy to put them in one place after that.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > When you're filling up Jacob, is he controlled? > That is the question we're trying to answer here. > jamesatzephyr wrote: > If you go the other way and say he's a 2 cap, why are you ignoring his quite clear card text? > Not ignoring it - im saying that when i read the cards, id say he gets blood equal to capacity - (which is 2) as he is moved. then he becomes controlled and is boosted to 6. Id _think_ the window where blood is added is a conditional that is all resolved as part of the successful check of 'if this vampire is younger' To me the gem effect is like an 'as it enters play' (similar to anarch convert) - then it becomes controlled with the blood you added.

> Mewcat wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > > > DJHedgehog wrote: > > > I would love if someone went back through all those LSJ rulings and put them in one place > > > > > > > > Thanks so much for volunteering yourself to do that. > > > I think the best solution is to just ignore all lsj rulings > So... you turn up at your next tournament, and every single ruling LSJ made has been revoked. Does your deck even work? Who knows? Your judge is having to re-make dozens upon dozens of rulings from scratch, with no guidance whatever.

> narpassword wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > When you're filling up Jacob, is he controlled? > > > That is the question we're trying to answer here. > And it's answered in the ruling that I've already cited. He's moved into play, and then the counters are moved on him when he's in play (controlled), so he's 6 capacity. "Jacob the Glitch is moved to the ready region first (thus becoming a 6 cap), and _then_ gains blood equal to his capacity" "Yes"

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > narpassword wrote: > > > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > When you're filling up Jacob, is he controlled? > > > > > > > > That is the question we're trying to answer here. > > > And it's answered in the ruling that I've already cited. He's moved into play, and then the counters are moved on him when he's in play (controlled), so he's 6 capacity. > Aware that you posted that thanks - point it out again doesnt really help get to the bottom of 'why it works this way' unless the only reason we are to have is 'because it was said so'

> narpassword wrote: > Aware that you posted that thanks - point it out again doesnt really help get to the bottom of 'why it works this way' > > unless the only reason we are to have is 'because it was said so' > As I've pointed out, by default, things in V:TES happen sequentially. This can cause certain things to happen, or to happen differently, because the effect of part a changes things for part b. For example, when a referendum passes, Lutz applies his damage to your prey after handling the resolution of the referendum. See [LSJ 20090115] This can cause the Lutz pool damage to be applied to a Methuselah who wasn't your prey at the time the referendum passed, if the resolution of referendum ousts a player itself. Same here. One thing happens (bring a vampire into the ready region), then a second thing happens (counters given). The second thing works differently because the first thing increased Jacob's capacity by moving him into play.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Mewcat wrote: > > > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DJHedgehog wrote: > > > > I would love if someone went back through all those LSJ rulings and put them in one place > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks so much for volunteering yourself to do that. > > > > > > > > I think the best solution is to just ignore all lsj rulings > > > So... you turn up at your next tournament, and every single ruling LSJ made has been revoked. Does your deck even work? Who knows? Your judge is having to re-make dozens upon dozens of rulings from scratch, with no guidance whatever. > Since nobody knows or understands his rulings, did they really happen?

> Mewcat wrote: > Since nobody knows or understands his rulings, did they really happen? > But... lots of people know and understand his rulings. Some people disagree with some of them, of course. Some people would have made a few differently. Many are cited regularly by, in particular, Pascal (when he was rules authority) and Ankha (who now is). If there are particular card interactions and rulings that you think should work differently, it's quite possible to query them and ask if they were wrongly decided (e.g. contradicting established precedent) or have practical problems now. That doesn't mean that you have to throw out every ruling ever made.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > If there are particular card interactions and rulings that you think should work differently, it's quite possible to query them and ask if they were wrongly decided (e.g. contradicting established precedent) or have practical problems now. That doesn't mean that you have to throw out every ruling ever made. > I'm not sure anybody was advocating throwing rulings out. The idea proposed was to take all the rulings from the newsgroup and consolidate them onto the rulings page so that it is easier to find and understand them. It was suggested that in this process, the current rules people can clarify any unclear rulings that currently exist on the newsgroup. After doing so, the newsgroup and all it's rulings can be "thrown out" because they will exist elsewhere in a more intelligible format.

I was advocating throwing them out. I am certain tournaments are routinely played contrary to lsj rulings. Some of them are so crazy you never would have asked the question in the first place. Then some guy shows up with print outs from rec.games.tradingcards and you learn that some bizarre stuff is going on. Except maybe the ruling was reversed. The only way to know is do more Google searches.

You can't scrap all LSJ's rulings: it would leave too many question unanswered. Furthermore, so far all of them are sensible and consistent. Gathering the rulings is a good idea. In fact, it has been already done by a French player. The trouble is that 1/ it is in French 2/ the player is pissed off by the Anthelios / ToGP errata and removed his work from the internet 3/ it's not recent (even though there haven't been a lot of new rulings during that time 4/ It requires a huge amount of work to process it. www.vekn.fr/site/IMG/pdf/LoS_12_aout_2010.pdf Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > 2/ the player is pissed off by the Anthelios / ToGP errata and removed his work from the internet > Oh for f***'s sake! Grow up some nads and be a homme, not a garcon! (or a drama queen...) Finnish Politics!

This is not surprising to me, given the level of maturity I’ve encountered on this forum. The onus is now on the new owners to gather the rulings so stuff like a player pulling a hissyfit and withholding volunteer work does not happen. It’s a ton of work, but that’s the price of owning the game. The new owners are now the de facto curator. I’m sure there will be some plan in place along these lines for gathering rulings.

I've said for a long time that all relevant rulings for cards should be attached to each card via a searchable, pretty, interface (Amaranth but with rulings attached) but it would need to be official and tied to BC somehow. LSJ (once he got rolling) only did 3 truly questionable things: Edge Explosion existing, strange choices in precons, and (by rumor) let Liliths Blessing roll out after 1 round of playtest. His rulings are fine. BUT: the point of contention seems to often be "design intent " on some cards. Black Chantry could, if they so desired, quite easily change wording as things are reprinted to make some of these things more clear. With this example, the fact that Jacob is put in the ready region with blood equal to capacity would lead me to believe his text of "increased by 4 when controlled" is relevant since he will be in the ready region. But a searchable interface and or a tweak in wording could remove potential ambiguity.

> Ankha wrote: > You can't scrap all LSJ's rulings: it would leave too many question unanswered. Furthermore, so far all of them are sensible and consistent. > > www.vekn.fr/site/IMG/pdf/LoS_12_aout_2010.pdf > The issue is really 3 pronged. 1) poor rulebook 2) poor card templating 3) poor card rulings It is difficult to separate one from the other so I can see that from a point of view the rulings could seem sensible and consistent. We just have to accept that the rulebook doesn't explain the game and that what is a requirement or an effect on a card is determined on a case by case basis. I again assert that competitive games are regularly not played 'by the rules' because no one is sure what the rules are.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > And it's answered in the ruling that I've already cited. He's moved into play, and then the counters are moved on him when he's in play (controlled), so he's 6 capacity. > > "Jacob the Glitch is moved to the ready region first (thus becoming a 6 cap), and _then_ gains blood equal to his capacity" "Yes" > For what its worth, I agree with this ruling. I see his ability that checks his capacity as continuous, not a triggered ability. Therefore he would be always 6 cap while controlled. There would be no separate steps when he is and when he isn't 6 cap while face up. Thats my personal opinion. Makes for a good turbovampire then, since he doesn't need to worry about his capacity. ps. I agree with earlier posts that card rulings would be best accessed as an online service where you search for a card text and then it also shows you rulings relevant to it. This is how MtG does things and it makes things very handy. Unfortunately, we don't have that kind of service currently, especially since secret library is coming down. Maybe this could be included in whatever is going to replace secret library? Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech