Pressing the Flesh (suggestion)POT

Based on the principle that the "POTENCE" discipline is very outdated in the game, I thought of some ideas . Combat Cards Name: Pressing the flesh Cost: 1 DIcipline: Potence pot: Press, Only used to continue combat POT: Only useable when both combatants are still ready and combat would end and the current round occurred in close range. Burn 1 blood to start a new round instead. Name: Troile's Fist Cost: 1 our 2? Dicipline: Potence Only usable after the first round. pot: Strike: Make a hand strike +2, and the opossing minion can't be dodge this strike. POT: Strike: As above but Make a hand strike with +5 Name: Shredding the spine Cost: 1 Dicipline: Potence Grapple. Only usable in close range before the chosen strikes. Pot:The opposing minion takes 1 environmental damage each round of combat during normal strike resolution at close range. [POT] As above, but for 2 environmental damage. Action Cards: Solving a Problem Dicipline: Potence Cost: 0 [D} action Pot: Enter in combat with a minion controlled by the prey or predator, with optional maneuver POT: As above, but with optional press (only usable to continue a combat) Mauro Ramos First Sword of leopoldo Society in fortaleza Ceara, Brazil

There's already a card with a similar name: "Pressing Fless" in Thanatosis. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Mauro wrote: > Based on the principle that the "POTENCE" discipline is very outdated in the game, I thought of some ideas . > Your overall goal seems to be to reduce the need for support from other disciplines (e.g. maneuvers from Celerity or Obfuscate). That doesn't really make Potence less outdated, it mostly just makes weenies potentially better, assuming cards are worth playing. > Mauro wrote: > Name: Pressing the flesh > Cost: 1 > DIcipline: Potence > pot: Press, Only used to continue combat > POT: Only useable when both combatants are still ready and combat would end and the current round occurred in close range. Burn 1 blood to start a new round instead. > It's not immediately obvious why this would be a significantly better pick than Immortal Grapple - stay at close range, kill someone on the first round. No need to extend combat, because they're already dead. And you're using two blood to extend combat, which is expensive. One answer might be that you want to play it against decks that solidly go to range in the first round, so you press at inferior. A potential problem with that is that decks that can solidly go to range are likely to hit you with something - perhaps it's a Celeritous gun deck, perhaps it's a Tzimisce deck tossing out Carrion Crows and some Breaths, perhaps it's a Thaumauturgy deck hitting you with occasional Flames of the Netherworld, those sorts of things. (Guns would be my big worry.) There's a decent chance you end up mangled in torpor, and you've lost blood in the first round so the 1 blood cost for the Press is possibly significant. To combat that, a few options occur: - You can, of course, defend against such hit-back, but not usually using Potence - and if you're already playing other disciplines, they may be providing the toys you want anyway. - You can maneuver back to close range (or use a set range) by whatever means, which makes a bunch of the card somewhat redundant. - You can hit them at range with Potence e.g. Thrown Gate, Sewer Lid, so you at least do some damage, and possibly prevent an additional strike or two by torporising them. The problem with this is that most of those cards are sub-optimal for Potence as a serious offensive discipline, in that they're weaker or more restricted than alternatives, and can't be played under Immortal Grapple, and you leave yourself open to S:CE if you're planning to make serious use of them. The superior of the card also suggests you're thinking about staying at close range, so it's not suggesting that much synergy to go this route. > Mauro wrote: > Name: Troile's Fist > Cost: 1 our 2? > Dicipline: Potence > Only usable after the first round. > pot: Strike: Make a hand strike +2, and the opossing minion can't be dodge this strike. > POT: Strike: As above but Make a hand strike with +5 > Requiring you to go to the second round is almost always a bad move. You jam your hand on the first round. If you torporise them on the first round anyway, it's wasted. You expose yourself to the opportunity for more damage against you in the second round. Is Torn Signpost + IG + Disarm just better? > Mauro wrote: > Name: Shredding the spine > Cost: 1 > Dicipline: Potence > Grapple. Only usable in close range before the chosen strikes. > Pot:The opposing minion takes 1 environmental damage each round of combat during normal strike resolution at close range. > [POT] As above, but for 2 environmental damage. > It's not clear why me shredding your spine with my superior strength (i.e. the theme of Potence) is environmental damage? As worded, this also stacks. Yes, it has a cost, but the timing of play means you likely know if you can afford it or not. > Mauro wrote: > Solving a Problem > Dicipline: Potence > Cost: 0 > [D} action > Pot: Enter in combat with a minion controlled by the prey or predator, with optional maneuver > POT: As above, but with optional press (only usable to continue a combat) > For me, an example of making weenie mono-Potence better. It can already shred decks - it's not clear why it needs a largely better rush action than Bum's Rush (no DNR clause), to make it better at being more aggressive. While that might be a good decision for a deckbuilder to include, it feels like the wrong direction from a game design point of view.

Ok lets go over these.... Pressing the Flesh: Ummm, why would I ever use this? It gets completely outclassed by Immmortal Grapple and EVEN Mighty Grapple, which does basically same for no blood cost, and adds a bit of extra damage too at superior. Troile's fist: Cauldron of Blood does the exact same thing, at no blood cost, and never sees play. Nuff said. Shredding the Spine: This is basically enviromental Fists of Death, and also rather unthematic for potence, as potence is all about you hitting them hard, enviromental damage doesn't really fit the portfolio. Solving a Problem: So you want to give Sense Death to potence? I am not sure if that is good idea, now if you want to give a rush card for potence, maybe make it give +strength as the bonus effect? That sounds more fitting. Overall, what Potence needs, imo, is not more combat cards, but more stuff they can do outside of combat.

> Ankha wrote: > There's already a card with a similar name: "Pressing Fless" in Thanatosis. > I suggest "Smoothie" as an alternative name. Flavor text: "Does anyone have a straw?" > jamesatzephyr wrote: > Your overall goal seems to be to reduce the need for support from other disciplines (e.g. maneuvers from Celerity or Obfuscate). That doesn't really make Potence less outdated, it mostly just makes weenies potentially better, assuming cards are worth playing. > That is precisely the mindset that made suck. It is not just weenies who would benefit from being able to splash some , it is the clans that currently make do with only 2 disciplines (Giovanni, Lasombra), clans that happen to have decent crypts (e.g. !Malk),... Even the Nosferatu are better off sticking to only if they do not add extra . We have 25 years of experience telling us that multi-discipline combat is niche at best because heavy combat is the hardest strategy to pull off. Designing with that goal in mind will only lead to more wallpaper. That being said, the cards proposed by the OP are pretty much all awful.

Pressing The Flesh: I like it as an alternative to Immortal Grapple. My problem would be that it is basically Telepathic Tracking only requiring Potence instead of Auspex. Immortal Grapple, Psyche!, and Telepathic Tracking all serve to counter S:CE, but they all do it in a different way. Your Pressing The Flesh should act as an interesting alternative to IG, Psyche!, and TT. However, in defense of your idea, I don't think it is worse that IG. It would enable damaging strikes that aren't hand-strikes, including weapon strikes, which would be cool. Troile's Fist: I have to agree with James: I think TSP + IG + Disarm is just better. Short-chain combat that's less likely to jam, and gets the job done. Now, I like the idea of long-chain combat, but unless we get a card that says, "the opposing minion's controller burns 1 pool for each round of combat that occurs" I don't see it being worthwhile. Shredding The Spine: I'll answer why this is environmental damage to all those asking about the flavor. It's because having you're taking damage from a source other than the vampire. If I break your [bones] for example, you take the initial damage from my act. If you then try to move, you're going to feel more pain (take more damage.) Solving A Problem: I'm not sure how to feel about this. it doesn't do enough to make it different from all the other rush cards (which are mostly too similar for my liking.) A Potence rush card could be cool though. ===== When I suggested some Potence cards a few months ago, I stressed that Potence can / should make use of all the optional presses they get. For example, here's how I would do an alternative to IG: You Can Run! Combat Only usable before range is determined. If combat would end, this vampire may spend 2 presses to continue combat and get +1 strength. As above, and this vampire gets an optional press this round, only usable to continue combat. "But you can't hide!" So all those optional presses your vampire accumulates via card effects and special abilities don't go to waste. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

> Non-existant user wrote: > That is precisely the mindset that made suck. It is not just weenies who would benefit from being able to splash some , it is the clans that currently make do with only 2 disciplines (Giovanni, Lasombra), clans that happen to have decent crypts (e.g. !Malk),... Even the Nosferatu are better off sticking to only if they do not add extra . > What you seem to be saying is that multi-discipline combat works quite well for the few clans who have appropriate support from their other disciplines e.g. Brujah and !Brujah, Blood Brothers, but not for clans who don't. The obvious solution to that is to give them the appropriate support - whether via disciplined cards, clan cards, transients, permanents, or whatever else. This has multiple benefits: - it doesn't lead to power creep for the decks that already do function well. Do EuroBrujah need to be made better? - it keeps different clans and strategies distinct. Celeritous gun combat is different to IG Cel/Pot combat is different to Ani/Vic combat is different to... The decks function differently, using different strategies, and have different weaknesses. It would be nice if Giovanni Nec/Pot, Warrior Setite Ser/Pot etc. combat could be more viable, by slipping them interesting tech. If you only need Potence, all decks end up looking the same. > Non-existant user wrote: > We have 25 years of experience telling us that multi-discipline combat is niche at best because heavy combat is the hardest strategy to pull off. > Heavy combat is often a difficult strategy to pull off for a variety of different reasons, many of which aren't to do with crypt construction. Table hate is hard to deal with (dunking people's vampires makes other people's lives less fun, because they can't act). The slowness of ousting is another significant issue, and has been since the earliest days of V:TES, when Obf/Pot was being used in terrifying ways to rip up tables - but failed to oust anyone because bleeding for tiny amounts was so slow. Pool gain can be awkward, as your master card ratio is awkward due to significantly faster card flow than many decks, and a desire not to jam your hand with master cards, which can make rapid pool loss especially difficult to deal with (especially if combined with bounces to you, cross-table hate etc.). A potentially fertile furrow to plough would be one in which other disciplines/traits/sects/clans of underperforming combative clans could be mobilised to make some of those issues less of an issue - so that underperforming deck that wants to use Potence splashed as an out-of-clan on some vampires can get a leg up on ousting, that other deck can hold out better against pool depletion etc. > Non-existant user wrote: > Designing with that goal in mind will only lead to more wallpaper. > Helpfully, no-one has to design for one discipline in isolation. You can design for clans, strategies, and the game as a whole.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > What you seem to be saying is that multi-discipline combat works quite well for the few clans who have appropriate support from their other disciplines e.g. Brujah and !Brujah, Blood Brothers, but not for clans who don't. > ??? Those clans are not addressed at all in the paragraph you are quoting, but in the next one. If you expect others to read your walls of text, you could at least return the favour and try to understand what you are replying to.

None of the cards submitted gives something that it needs to be as efficient as or . Both of those operate on a basis of inflicting 2 ( guns, no additionals) , 3 ( crows and bats) or 4 or 6 ( DotB, pursuit/blur/diversion) damage a round WHILE being at long range and thus not dealing with 1 or more hit back quite often. Then they press or Psyche to keep the pain coming. cant avoid S:CE, but Psyche is strictly better than IGrapple for purposes of countering avoidant combat. Also, counters guns with DotB and Canine Horde, while is countered by both if they can outmaneuver a potential 1 Slam. A rush thats thematically good but balanced when comparing to other rushes, both requiring and not requiring disciplines, is something they could use. Thematically, additional strength and or press, but no stealth, fit. Of the used, practical rushes, gets 2 that target any vampire, 1 that's just younger(@stealth) . & can rush tapped, as can harass/Ambush, and Rumble targets whoever's there, but Big Game and the tried and true bums rush have DNR limits. So, the sweet spots for would be: In skill rush. Hitting weaker opponents so hard they do one less damage. A permanent boost to strength less transient than TSP but more fluid than Heroic Might/Preturnatural Strength. Strikes they have, but these would help. The rush could even be combo, with rush with optional press only usable to continue at and let's say burn one blood for a swoop maneuver +1 hands limit one per round at Pressing, fist, shredding I'm not feeling. Solving a problem could go: Solving a Problem Enter combat with a ready minion. This vampire gets an optional press, only usable to continue combat, during the first round. this vampire burns 1 blood to manuever to close range and gain +1 strength on her initial hand strike this round. Only one solving the problem can be played each round.

I got an idea. Solving a Problem Enter combat with a ready minion. This vampire can prevent one damage during combat. Enter combat with a ready minion. This vampire can prevent one damage each round of combat. Simplicity. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Preventing damage isn't really potence thing.

Frustrating Rage Only usable before range is set. +1 strength for each time the opposing minion maneuvers to long range. +2 strength for each time the opposing minion maneuvers to long range. Parting Gift When opposing minion strikes Combat Ends, that minion takes 2 damage after combat. As above, but that minion takes 3 damage after combat. -1 Strength

> Klaital wrote: > Preventing damage isn't really potence thing. > The only way to make potence good is giving it things that it doesnt have. And those things are numerous. If only thing that potence cards continue to do is hit really hard, then potence continues to suck. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Klaital wrote: > > Preventing damage isn't really potence thing. > > > The only way to make potence good is giving it things that it doesnt have. And those things are numerous. If only thing that potence cards continue to do is hit really hard, then potence continues to suck. > As I said already earlier in this thread, potence does not need any more combat. It needs stuff to do outside combat (like Horseshoes was a good start for example)

> Klaital wrote: > Preventing damage isn't really potence thing. > However, Taste of Vitae is already a mandatory part of potence combat, and since it is available without a discipline, the effect could also be mixed into potence cards as well. Same for bleed at +1. Since Computer Hacking is already available without a discipline, there is no thematic reason to prevent any other discipline from getting it as well with another effect at superior.