Consider this situation:
You have a vampire in combat with superior Celerity, it is still pre-maneuver and so far your vamp has played 5 Infernal Pursuits. Now she plays Concealed Weapon to bring out a gun.
There are 8 things that happen with your hand, and I want to know the order in which they should be resolved:
A. Play the Concealed Weapon (this is obviously first)
B. Replace Concealed Weapon
C. Draw an additional 5 cards for replacing the CW
D. Discard down to hand size from the extra draws off CW
E. Put the gun in play from your hand
F. Replace the gun
G. Draw an additional 5 cards for replacing the gun
H. Discard down to hand size from the extra draws off the gun
I have seen this handled differently by different players, and some ways are more advantageous than others with respect to information that the player gets before deciding what to discard.
The most advantageous for the player would be to drop both the CW and the gun at the same time, draw 12 cards and then discard 10 (AEBFCGDH) —— and I have seen it done that way, but I am not sure that’s legal.
I currently have a deck that does just this, and I want to make sure that I order my draws and discards correctly.
Thanks much!
-Bill Troxel
Infernal Pursuit
[Combat] Combat
[cel] Press.
[CEL] For the remainder of the combat, each time you replace a card (including when you draw to replace this card), draw an additional card and discard down to your hand size.
Concealed Weapon
[Combat] Combat
Only usable before range is determined.
This minion equips with a non-unique weapon card from your hand (requirements and cost apply as normal). The weapon cannot cost 3 or more pool or inflict (with a regular strike) aggravated damage or 4 or more damage.
-Killiam
(Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from
Look at the woman I've become
And the strangest things seem
Suddenly routine"
-Hedwig Robinson
Oh, and a quick follow up question.
I'm pretty sure that answer will be NO, but might as well ask while it's fresh in mind:
Does drawing back up to your hand size after using Nicomedes' ability count as replacing cards for the purposes of Infernal Pursuit?
Nicomedes
[aus] [for] [nec] [vic]
Harbinger of Skulls
Capacity: 5
Group: 4
Sabbat. Black Hand: Once each of your turns, Nicomedes may burn a blood to shuffle your hand into your library (draw afterward).
(edit: had somehow omitted the word "ability")
-Killiam
(Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from
Look at the woman I've become
And the strangest things seem
Suddenly routine"
-Hedwig Robinson
Afaik and as it is played here, it is like this. When you play Concealed Weapon you have to assign a target (a weapon in your hand) when you play it, before you replace Concealed Weapon. To show all players at the table, that you had the weapon in your hand when you played CW, the target weapon is put on the table facedown, while still considered in your hand. Then you replace CW with 6 cards, discard down and wait for DIs or something similar to be played. If CW is successful you turn the weapon faceup and replace it in the same way. This way it is made sure, that you didnt just play CW and hoped to draw into a weapon, that you can then play.
> Killiam wrote:
>
> A. Play the Concealed Weapon (this is obviously first)
> B. Replace Concealed Weapon
> C. Draw an additional 5 cards for replacing the CW
> D. Discard down to hand size from the extra draws off CW
> E. Put the gun in play from your hand
> F. Replace the gun
> G. Draw an additional 5 cards for replacing the gun
> H. Discard down to hand size from the extra draws off the gun
>
> I have seen this handled differently by different players, and some ways are more advantageous than others with respect to information that the player gets before deciding what to discard.
>
You play both the concealed weapon and the weapon it equips together, before you replace either. The weapon has to be in your hand when you play concealed weapon. Also the window to direct intervention concealed weapon is before you replace either.
After that its replace as normal and discard as normal. Ie. Play Concealed weapon+gun; draw 12, discard down to handsize.
ps. I wish there was a FAQ for card rulings.. So people could check it for often-asked questions about how cards work.
> Killiam wrote:
> Does drawing back up to your hand size after using Nicomedes' ability count as replacing cards for the purposes of Infernal Pursuit?
>
If you activate the ability during combat, I don't see why it wouldn't count.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
> You play both the concealed weapon and the weapon it equips together, before you replace either.
>
This is not correct.
You play the Concealed Weapon and *declare* the weapon that you will conceal before replacement is drawn. Then cancel effects occurs (if any). Afterward you replace the Concealed Weapon. Next, you play the named weapon from your hand. This cannot be canceled. You draw to replace it.
You must have the weapon in your hand to play the Concealed Weapon, but each card is played separately. You may ask a judge to confirm that a legal play is happening (that they have a card in hand before replacement), but technically the player cannot show you this card until they have replaced the Concealed Weapon.
As a parallel consider Shattering Crescendo at superior Melpominee, which requires you to discard a second Shattering Crescendo. You must have the second SC in hand to begin the action, but it stays in your hand. If the card is lost during the action Raptor/Siren's Lure and there is no SC to discard the action will fizzle, but it was legal when it began. The action here is very useful to show that each part of the play and play a second card with it are drawn separately because they are separated by many steps before resolution. In the case of Concealed Weapon, a combat card, the only step separating it from the target weapon is cancelation. Nevertheless the analogy holds and the cards are played and replaced separately.
> kschaefer wrote:
>
> > Bloodartist wrote:
> > You play both the concealed weapon and the weapon it equips together, before you replace either.
> >
> This is not correct.
>
> You play the Concealed Weapon and *declare* the weapon that you will conceal before replacement is drawn. Then cancel effects occurs (if any). Afterward you replace the Concealed Weapon. Next, you play the named weapon from your hand. This cannot be canceled. You draw to replace it.
>
> You must have the weapon in your hand to play the Concealed Weapon, but each card is played separately. You may ask a judge to confirm that a legal play is happening (that they have a card in hand before replacement), but technically the player cannot show you this card until they have replaced the Concealed Weapon.
>
Correct.
So to answer the OP question, you will draw 6 cards after playing the CW, then 6 cards after playing the weapon.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Killiam wrote:
> Does drawing back up to your hand size after using Nicomedes' ability count as replacing cards for the purposes of Infernal Pursuit?
>
> Nicomedes
> [aus] [for] [nec] [vic]
> Harbinger of Skulls
> Capacity: 5
> Group: 4
> Sabbat. Black Hand: Once each of your turns, Nicomedes may burn a blood to shuffle your hand into your library (draw afterward).
>
> (edit: had somehow omitted the word "ability")
>
Yes.
And before you ask: you replace card by card, discarding each time X cards (where X is the number of extra cards you drew).
groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/Infernal$20pursuit$20weakens/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/H6Jm74N0v7k
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Killiam wrote:
> > Does drawing back up to your hand size after using Nicomedes' ability count as replacing cards for the purposes of Infernal Pursuit?
> >
> > Nicomedes
> > [aus] [for] [nec] [vic]
> > Harbinger of Skulls
> > Capacity: 5
> > Group: 4
> > Sabbat. Black Hand: Once each of your turns, Nicomedes may burn a blood to shuffle your hand into your library (draw afterward).
> >
> > (edit: had somehow omitted the word "ability")
> >
> Yes.
>
> And before you ask: you replace card by card, discarding each time X cards (where X is the number of extra cards you drew).
>
> groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/Infernal$20pursuit$20weakens/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/H6Jm74N0v7k
>
That ruling seems to have been made with the original card text in mind, but it makes no sense with current card text. The hand size is still 7 (or whatever) while replacing cards, and Infernal Pusuit only requires to discard down to hand size. So you should not have to discard any cards until you have more than [hand size] cards in hand.
> kschaefer wrote:
> You must have the weapon in your hand to play the Concealed Weapon, but each card is played separately. You may ask a judge to confirm that a legal play is happening (that they have a card in hand before replacement), but technically the player cannot show you this card until they have replaced the Concealed Weapon.
>
At 1.6.1. of general rules is this tidbit:
>
> The player completely declares the effect of the card when it is played.
>
I would interpret this to mean announcing what you are equipping with concealed weapon as you play it.
Which means you would reveal the 44 magnum from your hand and say you are concealing it, even if these cards would not be replaced yet.
ps. Has it ever occurred to the rules team to change the rules and/or card texts to make common situations less obtrusive? Reading the words "You can ask a judge to confirm legal play" made me facepalm so hard I hurt myself. Asking a judge to make sure that a play is legal is just about as obtrusive as it gets, especially in tournaments where a judge tends to be also a player. You pause TWO games just to ensure that playing a card in normal way is legal.
Changing concealed/disguised weapons into such that the weapon is played at the same time, and thus both cards would be lost if CW is canceled springs to mind. It would feel bad to lose both cards to 1 card, but it would cut the amount of fuss involving backtracking extra card draws to zero.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
The quoted car text by fzD is the last one so except if Anha do a rule back this ruling still apply
i guess it means that your hand size becomes 1 then 2 etc until you have your "normal" hand size
> Bloodartist wrote:
> At 1.6.1. of general rules is this tidbit:
> >
> > The player completely declares the effect of the card when it is played.
> >
> I would interpret this to mean announcing what you are equipping with concealed weapon as you play it.
> Which means you would reveal the 44 magnum from your hand and say you are concealing it, even if these cards would not be replaced yet.
>
No, you don't have to reveal the card. You just have to say: "I play Concealed Weapon on a .44 Magnum".
> Bloodartist wrote:
> ps. Has it ever occurred to the rules team to change the rules and/or card texts to make common situations less obtrusive? Reading the words "You can ask a judge to confirm legal play" made me facepalm so hard I hurt myself.
>
You don't need to do that. You can set aside the weapon, face down, when you play the Concealed Weapon. Then, when the effect resolves, you just flip the weapon face up.
For some other effects, we have made some changes on a card per card basis such as most cards searched in the library or crypt are now revealed (this is not a general ruling)
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Timo wrote:
> The quoted car text by fzD is the last one so except if Anha do a rule back this ruling still apply
>
The ruling stands.
> Timo wrote:
> i guess it means that your hand size becomes 1 then 2 etc until you have your "normal" hand size
>
No: cards being replaced in a batch all count against the hand size.
So you replace the first card (with 6 other cards waiting to be replaced and counting against your hand size), you draw an extra one with Infernal Pursuit, discard a card, then replace the second card (with 5 other cards waiting to be replaced and counting against your hand size) etc.
You may end up with fewer cards than your hand size if you deplete your library in the meantime.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Bloodartist wrote:
>
> ....... Reading the words "You can ask a judge to confirm legal play" made me facepalm so hard I hurt myself. Asking a judge to make sure that a play is legal is just about as obtrusive as it gets, especially in tournaments where a judge tends to be also a player. You pause TWO games just to ensure that playing a card in normal way is legal.
>
> Changing concealed/disguised weapons into such that the weapon is played at the same time, and thus both cards would be lost if CW is canceled springs to mind. It would feel bad to lose both cards to 1 card, but it would cut the amount of fuss involving backtracking extra card draws to zero.
>
I'm fairly certain that the "ask a judge if a play was legal" part was aimed at the beginning part of Bill's question where he directly stated hes seen it both ways and was essentially certain the one way way wrong. If someone cheats, accidentally or otherwise, asking the judge is the thing to do.
I've had people (probably due to cheatiness rather than ignorance) On the Q the same minion multiple times between turns. I've personally "ousted" with Marcellus and an Aire of Elation. Then 50 seconds later had an "oh shit, put your cards back!" Moment where I subsequently finished ousting with Jimmy Dunn and Sarah Brando bleeds of one. A judge was called to Inform we rewound and I was a moron.
But rulings by card will never be left to a judges discretion, as only PTW and potential intent rulings can fairly fall into there.
Now, ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY it would be great to have an app that had all the cards AND officially, currently updated rulings and FAQs by card. So basically extra rules added into Amaranth or something.
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Killiam wrote:
> > Does drawing back up to your hand size after using Nicomedes' ability count as replacing cards for the purposes of Infernal Pursuit?
> >
> > Nicomedes
> > [aus] [for] [nec] [vic]
> > Harbinger of Skulls
> > Capacity: 5
> > Group: 4
> > Sabbat. Black Hand: Once each of your turns, Nicomedes may burn a blood to shuffle your hand into your library (draw afterward).
> >
> > (edit: had somehow omitted the word "ability")
> >
> Yes.
>
> And before you ask: you replace card by card, discarding each time X cards (where X is the number of extra cards you drew).
>
> groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/Infernal$20pursuit$20weakens/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/H6Jm74N0v7k
>
Just to confirm that this is referring to have an empty hand for one effect (Nicodemus or Blood weakens), so you won't draw 21 cards and then discard 14 if you played 2 infernal pursuit, but draw 3 and discard 2, each time till you get to your handsize, correct?
In a normal scenario where a vampire plays two infernal pursuit.
one card played after that, the player draws 3 and then discard 2, correct?
from discord, someone found the original ruling from 1995!
Here's a dusty old 1995 answer from Tom Wylie groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/yejj-744_zc/m/IVkIvqGQdGUJ
>Infernal Pursuit (for drawing additional cards)
Yes. So if you play two superior Pursuits, each time you replace a card,
you draw three cards and discard two of them.
from a question asked by young LSJ