Vlad Tepes Anarch Secession

1. Can Vlad Tepes, as-is (untitled Independent), play Anarch Secession? If no, why not? 2. If yes to 1, is he considered to be spoofing a specific title when he Secedes, or a non-specific title? 3. If it’s a specific title, can he choose the title he spoofs? For instance, can he play Anarch Secession spoofing the Prince of Seattle to become the Baron of Seattle? Thanks Much! -Bill Troxel Vlad Tepes [aus][ANI][DOM][PRO][THA][VIC] [Tzimisce] Tzimisce Capacity: 10 Group: 3 Independent: Vlad can play and use cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect. +1 bleed. Anarch Secession [Action] Action +1 stealth action. Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire. Put an anarch counter on this acting vampire. This vampire becomes anarch (and Independent). If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city. Minions without titles cannot block this action. Burn the anarch counter if this vampire changes sects. -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

Followup: If Vlad plays a Fee Stake while he is not an anarch, does he become anarch as a result of becoming a Baron? If not, does he get to keep and use the Baron title whilst not being anarch (as-an-anarch)? Fee Stake: Perth [Action] Action Requires a ready anarch with capacity above 4. +1 stealth action. Title. Put this card on the acting anarch to represent the unique anarch title of Baron of Perth. This may lead to a contested title. Any vampire can call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action. In that referendum, non-anarch titles are worth 1 fewer votes. -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

> Killiam wrote: > 1. Can Vlad Tepes, as-is (untitled Independent), play Anarch Secession? If no, why not? > Yes. > > Killiam wrote: > 2. If yes to 1, is he considered to be spoofing a specific title when he Secedes, or a non-specific title? > Yes, you pick. > > Killiam wrote: > 3. If it’s a specific title, can he choose the title he spoofs? For instance, can he play Anarch Secession spoofing the Prince of Seattle to become the Baron of Seattle? > Yes. He can spoof any city as a Prince or Archbishop even one not used in the game, such as Denver. If he does, he will become the Baron of <city> for the purposes of interacting with Anarch Secession for the remainder of the game. > Followup: If Vlad plays a Fee Stake while he is not an anarch, does he become anarch as a result of becoming a Baron? If not, does he get to keep and use the Baron title whilst not being anarch (as-an-anarch)? > No, he does not become Anarch. He can still use the Baron title because of his special text "use" ability.

I thought of another followup — let’s get weird with this. If Vlad has a Fee Stake, is he always considered to be a titled vampire, or only when he is ‘using’ the Fee Stake ‘as’ an anarch per his special? If he is only considered titled some of the time, I have the following questions: - If the Baron would be a contested title, can he choose not to be the Baron during his own untap phase, but to be the Baron during the other contesting Methuselah’s untap? Could he avoid the contestation cost this way, while forcing the other vampire to pay it? - Is Vlad free to get a different title while he has the Fee Stake (but is not using it) without losing the Fee Stake? Could he stack up multiple Fee Stakes? Could he stack up a Fee Stake, a Praxis Seizure AND a Crusade? Could he somehow use all of those votes during the same referendum? -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

(I'm thinking through the implications of being able to 'use' a title card to get the right sect for it, on a semi-permanent basis. It's an interesting angle that I don't think was fully explored when he first came out.) > Killiam wrote: > If Vlad has a Fee Stake, is he always considered to be a titled vampire, or only when he is ‘using’ the Fee Stake ‘as’ an anarch per his special? > If you're the wrong sect for a title, the title goes inert - you still have it, but it doesn't have any game relevance except for: a) contesting the title (you immediately yield instead) or b) receiving a new title (you lose the old one, even if it's inert). > Killiam wrote: > - If the Baron would be a contested title, can he choose not to be the Baron during his own untap phase, > If he's not of the appropriate sect, the title goes inert and he yields it. > Killiam wrote: > - Is Vlad free to get a different title while he has the Fee Stake (but is not using it) without losing the Fee Stake? > No. Even if he's not using the card (with his special), the title is still on him (but inert) and is yielded when he gets a new title. See also: a vampire with a Praxis Seizure goes Sabbat somehow, then successfully gets a Crusade. The Praxis Seizure goes away. > Killiam wrote: > Could he stack up multiple Fee Stakes? Could he stack up a Fee Stake, a Praxis Seizure AND a Crusade? Could he somehow use all of those votes during the same referendum? > No.

Does he count as untitled while the title is inert? If you are targeted by Eat the Rich, do you lose 1 pool or 4? -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

> kschaefer wrote: > No, he does not become Anarch. He can still use the Baron title because of his special text "use" ability. > I don't think this is how that ability works. If you are only talking about "playing or using cards as a Baron", yes, he can, but he could even before playing the Fee Stakes. He does not get the 2 votes, though. This is because even though he can "use" the Fee Stake, what "usign" the Fee Stake does is giving you a title, but after that the title will work following titles rules, in this case, the title would be placed on him, but would be inactive because he isn't an anarch anymore, and so cannot employ an anarch title.

> Killiam wrote: > Does he count as untitled while the title is inert? > Any vampire with an inert title is considered untitled for all game purposes, except the two I mentioned - receiving a new title (the inert one goes away), and contesting (you yield instead of contesting). > Killiam wrote: > If you are targeted by Eat the Rich, do you lose 1 pool or 4? > An interesting question. If he can 'use' a title card which requires a sect to activate the title whenever he feels like it, he could be either, your choice. This could lead to Excitement(tm) if he's allowed to use it right up to the end of the tallying of votes (so he can vote) and then untitled for applying the effects of the successful referendum. (This sort of shenanigans is why I'm a little dubious about him being able to use titles in this way, but it seems potentially legit, card-text-wise.)

> Ratadin wrote: > This is because even though he can "use" the Fee Stake, what "usign" the Fee Stake does is giving you a title, but after that the title will work following titles rules, in this case, the title would be placed on him, but would be inactive because he isn't an anarch anymore, and so cannot employ an anarch title. > Your assumption as to what "using" the Fee Stake means isn't obviously true. I mean, it could be ruled to work like that, but from the existing rulings on Vlad Tepes, it isn't immediately obvious that it couldn't work with him turning it on and off at will. Other sect-based always-on card-in-play effects with him can work, which we know from the ruling on Abbot. [FZD 20150306] And we know that the fate of the title is linked to the fate of the Title card. If the card goes away, so does the title. [LSJ 20100812] (*) So it's not obvious that Fee Stake doesn't function like Abbot. (*) This is hard to make happen - removing the card first, rather than the title - but not impossible. Cleansing Ritual can do it, which might be relevant if you have temporary control of someone with an annoying title card. Malkavian Time Auction could be invoked to do mental things involving transferring control of the title card, then ousting the controller. Regent could possibly do it if the vampire it was on is stolen, because master cards are by default controlled by the player of the card, not the controller of the minion it's on.

> kschaefer wrote: > > > Killiam wrote: > > 1. Can Vlad Tepes, as-is (untitled Independent), play Anarch Secession? If no, why not? > > > Yes. > > > > Killiam wrote: > > 2. If yes to 1, is he considered to be spoofing a specific title when he Secedes, or a non-specific title? > > > Yes, you pick. > > > > Killiam wrote: > > 3. If it’s a specific title, can he choose the title he spoofs? For instance, can he play Anarch Secession spoofing the Prince of Seattle to become the Baron of Seattle? > > > Yes. He can spoof any city as a Prince or Archbishop even one not used in the game, such as Denver. If he does, he will become the Baron of <city> for the purposes of interacting with Anarch Secession for the remainder of the game. > > > Followup: If Vlad plays a Fee Stake while he is not an anarch, does he become anarch as a result of becoming a Baron? If not, does he get to keep and use the Baron title whilst not being anarch (as-an-anarch)? > > > No, he does not become Anarch. He can still use the Baron title because of his special text "use" ability. > Is there a source or confirmation for that "you pick city you want"?

> Nac wrote: > Is there a source or confirmation for that "you pick city you want"? > [FZD 20150506] > > Pascal wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > Also, what happens if Vlad plays Anarch Secession? Can he choose to be a Prince/Archbishop of somewhere for the purposes of playing the card, and thus become the Baron of somewhere? > > > Yes. > The city doesn't have to already exist in the game: [FZD 20150507 > Pascal wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > > > blackday wrote: > > > So with the anarch secession ruled by Pascal mean Vlad can play one and become a baron of any city? Even a made up one? > > > > > > > > Seems so. There's no list of 'allowed' cities anywhere in the game's rules. > > > Correct. >

> kschaefer wrote: > > > Followup: If Vlad plays a Fee Stake while he is not an anarch, does he become anarch as a result of becoming a Baron? If not, does he get to keep and use the Baron title whilst not being anarch (as-an-anarch)? > > > No, he does not become Anarch. He can still use the Baron title because of his special text "use" ability. > Re-reading his card text and putting my brain in gear, that's more interesting. Anarch Secession requires a title - I'll go with Prince. Requiring a sect-based title also implicitly requires the sect, so it requires Camarilla. Vlad plays the card and becomes Baron of Melbourne. The title card goes in play on him. Vlad says: "Vlad can play and use cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect." Vlad is now not an Anarch, so the title is inert. Vlad goes to use the Anarch Secession that is in play on him. He uses it as if he had that title or were of that sect. The title he used was Prince, the sect he (implicitly) used was Camarilla. Some options now come to mind: If Anarch Secession+Vlad remembers that that's what he played it as, then when he uses it as if he had "that title" or "that sect" then it sees him as Camarilla, not Anarch. It potentially also sees him as gaining a Prince title temporarily ("as if" he had that title), and so Anarch Secession might go on to burn itself to get rid of the inert Baron. Alternatively, Anarch Secession might not remember that it was played as Prince + implicitly Camarilla, but might let you re-pick a sect and a title from the options available on the card. Anarch Secession doesn't not require the Anarch sect, nor can you play it as a Baron because it requires you not to be an anarch, and Baron implicitly requires anarchy (like Prince implicitly requires Camarilla. So using any of the titles or sects that Anarch Secession uses as a requirement, none of them would activate the Baron title. And if you attempt to use it while it sees him as being a Prince, then as above, it might potentially see him as gaining a title (Prince) and so burn itself to get rid of the inert Baron. . Many of the shenanigans of having the title turn on and off might still be possible with (some) other Title cards that require a sect that matches the sect of the title bestowed. e.g. a Praxis Seizure.

wouldn't using the anarch secession make vlad into an anarch from independent as part of the card text making the baron title always on until another card effect changed his sect.

It depends on whether he is spoofing a city title when he plays the card.

> d-mohn wrote: > wouldn't using the anarch secession make vlad into an anarch from independent as part of the card text making the baron title always on until another card effect changed his sect. > Reading back what I wrote and trying to reconstruct my thought process, I may have slightly spaced and been conflating Anarch Secession (requires non-Anarch, makes you anarch) and Fee Stake (requires anarch, doesn't make you anarch) at the same time.

> rulebook wrote: > Title: A Title card is a placeholder for a title. If the title is yielded or lost, the card is burned. If the title is unique, contests are paid with vampire blood, as normal for titles. > The whole point of the title cards is to represent a title. I don't think a title should be "usable" by the way of its placeholder. This would mean that: 1/ Vlad Tepes can play Anarch Secession. He becomes anarch, and baron of X if you choose to play the card as Prince/Archbishop/Baron of X. 2/ Vlad Tepes can play Fee Stake: X. As long as Vlad Tepes is not anarch, the title is dormant. Vlad Tepes can't "use" it, even while calling a vote requiring an anarch. 3/ Like any dormant title, if Vlad Tepes gets another title, the first one is lost. 4/ He counts as untitled if he has a dormant title. He cannot "use" his title to become titled. Of course, it would also be preferable to change Vlad Tepes to "...use non-title cards" to avoid any confusion. I need to think about it, but you can leave comments. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director