while sorting some new acquisitions, I came across the card "Gypsies." Given how that's basically a super offensive racial slur, can we please change the name? this isn't the mid 90's anymore. we wouldn't use other offensive and derogatory terms to name cards, and we shouldn't use Gypsy or its derivatives.
(pic loosely related)
> elotar wrote:
> While there are assamite, ravnos and giovanny clans there will be no chance to be avoid racism in VtES
>
You would like to excuse racial slurs, wouldn't you, you russian alt right troll?
You come here with your 'lets ban Conditioning' propaganda just to divide us.
Russia russia russia russia.
See what I did there?
On topic - Did we have anyone complaining about the card? Are we going too far on the PC / SJW thing?
Baali lives matter
According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, "Gypsy" sometimes has an offensive meaning. That is, not always.
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gypsy
Gypsy
1 : sometimes offensive : a member of a traditionally itinerant people who originated in northern India and now live chiefly in south and southwest Asia, Europe, and North America
2 : romany (the Indo-Aryan language of the Gypsies)
V:EKN Website Coordinator
Unbelievable... What will be next? We have more male vampires then female, so let's equalize sexes? Do we have enough races represented among the crypt cards? Do we have under-age vampires? Is this cardgame homophobic because we do not have openly gay crypt cards?
I firmly believe that this suggestion has nothing to do with good will, only one person's wordwide-pushed agenda on picking on racial stuff and feel satisfied about correcting it where it has nothing to do with racism, racial slurs or anything of the sort whatsoever.
NC of Hungary
///
I know people who were offended because there is a vampire called "Ganesh". Well, you'll always find someone offended because of something.
Today, someone complained vehemently about the rulebook because, for clarity, Methuselahs are referred to as "she" and vampires as "he". That someone is "enraged" about it. Duh? Enraged? Because of a convention used in a rulebook?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I gotta say that if Gypsy is actually understood as a slur by romani-people, it should be changed. It would be like having a card called "Nigger". Literally.
I understand that when something doesn't affect you directly, it's a pain to have to avoid it for the sake of others, but the whole "toughen up" argument doesn't work when we are talking about racism, specially if you haven't felt racism in your whole live.
> Brum wrote:
> You would like to excuse racial slurs, wouldn't you, you russian alt right troll?
>
This one is our best:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigaz
NC Russia
> Ratadin wrote:
> I gotta say that if Gypsy is actually understood as a slur by romani-people, it should be changed. It would be like having a card called "Nigger". Literally.
>
It is nothing like the "n" word. I advise you to do some research before jumping into such conversations. I have empathy as well, but it is far from that, and restraining/erasing/overruling the past is actually more barbaric and simple-minded, than empathetic in my opinion. VtES also have Rom gypsies and Tsigane by the way.
NC of Hungary
///
> Ankha wrote:
> I know people who were offended because there is a vampire called "Ganesh". Well, you'll always find someone offended because of something.
> Today, someone complained vehemently about the rulebook because, for clarity, Methuselahs are referred to as "she" and vampires as "he". That someone is "enraged" about it. Duh? Enraged? Because of a convention used in a rulebook?
>
That's an interesting anecdote. The perceived gender bias in the "he/she-vampire/methuselah" convention personally doesn't bother me. What does bother me is how much awkward language use of this convention introduces. I mean, the rulebook includes a paragraph explaining how this convention works. If one has to explain a convention being used in a written piece to avoid confusion, that should be a sign to look for a better solution...
> Malachy wrote:
>
> > Ratadin wrote:
> > I gotta say that if Gypsy is actually understood as a slur by romani-people, it should be changed. It would be like having a card called "Nigger". Literally.
> >
> It is nothing like the "n" word. I advise you to do some research before jumping into such conversations. I have empathy as well, but it is far from that, and restraining/erasing/overruling the past is actually more barbaric and simple-minded, than empathetic in my opinion. VtES also have Rom gypsies and Tsigane by the way.
>
But what I'm saying is not "It is a slur, so change it", but "If romani people do think that, we should do it". I do not know, I haven't done any research nor is english my native language.
Here in spain "Gitano" is used as an insult toward non-romani people (implying that romani people are bad), but it is their name, and I feel they are quite proud of being considered "Gitano".
But, again, it doesn't affect any of us (as far as I know), so it should be the romani community, and not a bunch of randos on a web forum, who should say if thei feel offended or not by the card name.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> I mean, the rulebook includes a paragraph explaining how this convention works. If one has to explain a convention being used in a written piece to avoid confusion, that should be a sign to look for a better solution...
>
I don't think so. If you are setting a new convention, it is but logical that you explain it. D&D used "she" as the default gender for the whole print of 3.5 and it had its explanation of this convention, and it was great.
These things are not confusing, you never will feel that you don't know who they are refering to whenever they use "she" or "he". This is all about feeling represented, and I have to say that the VTES rulebook is one of the most elegant ones I have seen so far.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > I know people who were offended because there is a vampire called "Ganesh". Well, you'll always find someone offended because of something.
> > Today, someone complained vehemently about the rulebook because, for clarity, Methuselahs are referred to as "she" and vampires as "he". That someone is "enraged" about it. Duh? Enraged? Because of a convention used in a rulebook?
> >
> That's an interesting anecdote. The perceived gender bias in the "he/she-vampire/methuselah" convention personally doesn't bother me. What does bother me is how much awkward language use of this convention introduces. I mean, the rulebook includes a paragraph explaining how this convention works. If one has to explain a convention being used in a written piece to avoid confusion, that should be a sign to look for a better solution...
>
Not necessarily. It is like saying "through this rulebook, we will consider that the player's cars will be the blue ones, while his opponent's will be the red ones.", or "the player to the left is called prey, and the player to the right is called predator".
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
From wikipedia:
"French gitan, English gypsy, Spanish gitano, Italian gitano, Turkish kipti, all from Greek Αἰγύπτιος Aigýptios "Egyptian" (corrupted form: Γύφτος Gýftos), and Hungarian fáreónépe from Greek φαραώ pharaó "pharaoh" – referring to their allegedly Egyptian provenance.[73] Usage of "gypsy" and similarly derived words differs between groups as some Roma groups use this word as a self-identifier while others consider this word a racial slur."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people#Names
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Not necessarily. It is like saying "through this rulebook, we will consider that the player's cars will be the blue ones, while his opponent's will be the red ones.", or "the player to the left is called prey, and the player to the right is called predator".
>
An anecdote:
In my BA thesis I did interviews, and in order to maintain informant anonymity I established that "in this analysis a gender neutral 'he' will be used to hide informant gender", blah blah blah.
Well, my peer group was like, "WTF, why would you use a masculine pronoun when actually gender neutral pronouns exist?!". I had no idea. I actually had thought that I was considerate enough.
At first I was, like, what's the fuss, but decided to just establish a gender neutral 'they' instead. Shrug, no real trouble for me, and seemed to work.
Not really pivotal to the thread itself, but just this: if it takes very little extra work, these kinds of word sensitivities could just as well be considered.
I have no opinion on the Gypsy thing, though. And I do understand what's done with the rulebook. It's all good. This story just popped to mind.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
> Ankha wrote:
> Not necessarily. It is like saying "through this rulebook, we will consider that the player's cars will be the blue ones, while his opponent's will be the red ones.", or "the player to the left is called prey, and the player to the right is called predator".
>
In the existing convention, a pronoun is replacing the specialized language that was previously defined. So there's an extra layer added for the reader to understand (Vampire = a crypt card you can play = he, Methuselah = term for a player = she). In your examples, you are defining the specialized language not using additional pronouns (blue = player, red = opponent; prey = left, predator = right). It's the pronouns and the explanation of how the pronouns will be used in the rulebook that's causing the awkwardness.
Trust me, when one reads that part of the rulebook cold without knowing anything about the game, it is super, super confusing. There's a number of different ways to achieve the same goal without introducing gender-specific pronouns.
I wonder if the convention was introduced with an eye toward removing gender bias; if "he" means vampire and "she" means methuselah, it ensures that the feminine pronoun will be used, thus ensuring that the usual (or old-fashioned, depending on opinion) default of using "he" as the pronoun of choice when referring to either sex could not be done.
As Clerks taught us, a Racial slur, even when used as a term of endearment, is still a racial slur.
Now, there are different levels of racial slur. Dont believe me?
I've been white for quite some time. All my life in fact. But, neither "Honkey" or "cracker" have real malice or force behind them, because seriously, white people aren't typically persecuted and in fact are to blame for what could be calculated as a large amount of terrible things throughout history.
Slurs such as "chinc" "spic" or "wetback" all carry serious "get the fuck.out of my country" tones, and in the western and southwestern United States, similar slurs have historically been leveled at native indigenous peoples, but due to time, shrinking of individuals not being used to native Americans, or possibly just lack of it being heard of much, it's less prevalent.
Of course, "kike" has just as much spite as the above mentioned slurs to many Jews, and depending on circumstances probably has more ramifications in Europe than my side of the pond. I would cite proximity to the holocaust as reason for this assessment.
The n word, carrying 200+ years of slavery and outright removal of status as a human being (again for multiple centuries) carries a large amount of ugliness and hatred with it.
Africans know this un the states, and use it to fling at African Americans. Any American living somewhere without African immigrant presence will have to take my word for it, there is a sometimes unsubtle divide between them and black Americans. Now, that's bad, but not as bad as white people using it. Again, 200+ years of enslavement and being treated as not human. Not persecuted like some races, not driven to near extinction of race and culture like indigenous Americans. Abducted, herded, sold, bred, brutalized. Multiple generations of humans treated like this.
In an ideal world, racism only would still exist in jokes, but we don't live in that world and people are pricks.
In my opinion, there are countless reasons to not like someone without considering the color of their skin or some inherited alleles or where they were born.
I don't live somewhere gypsies are a common slur for a whole chunk of people. If someone from such a group voices an opinion, I'll take notice.
I know nobody from India or Nepal who has to date made any statements about the word gypsy, so it's safe to say in Columbus Ohio, with large communities fromNepal, Ghana and other parts of west Africa, Somalia, and Mexico, I might just live somewhere the peoples in question exist to be offended by such words.
But I also agree with Karl, that much pool for a +1 stealth ally is kind of self banning.......
> Malachy wrote:
> Unbelievable... What will be next? We have more male vampires then female, so let's equalize sexes?
>
Better not look at the demographics in Lost Kindred.
> Do we have enough races represented among the crypt cards?
>
I haven't done a demographic count of the WotC and WW era cards, but we're doing pretty well with that in the VEKN and BCP sets.
> Do we have under-age vampires?
>
Christopher Houghton. (EDIT: Embraced at 13, but that was 450 years ago.)
> Is this cardgame homophobic because we do not have openly gay crypt cards?
>
Lucita, Fatima, Alex Camille...
> BenPeal wrote:
>
> > Malachy wrote:
> > Unbelievable... What will be next? We have more male vampires then female, so let's equalize sexes?
> >
> Better not look at the demographics in Lost Kindred.
>
> > Do we have enough races represented among the crypt cards?
> >
> I haven't done a demographic count of the WotC and WW era cards, but we're doing pretty well with that in the VEKN and BCP sets.
>
> > Do we have under-age vampires?
> >
> Christopher Houghton. (EDIT: Embraced at 13, but that was 450 years ago.)
>
> > Is this cardgame homophobic because we do not have openly gay crypt cards?
> >
> Lucita, Fatima, Alex Camille...
>
Transcreatures and bod-modders are even represented through the Tzimisce!
Frankly, as tone-deaf as WhiteWolf has been over the decades, I'm amazed the Ventrue weren't implicitly written and correlated as stereotyped Jews (as the Ventrue are bankers, lawyers, politicians.) But even WhiteWolf is apparently not that dense. Still, it boggles the mind how the vaguely racist material that was clans Giovanni, Assamite, and Ravnos got to print. (Let us try to forget that Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom or Kindred of the East happened.)
Also, just throwing this out there, the best way to avoid claims of racism (over-representation of white European people, under-representation of POC) would be to make the VTES vampires primarily white Europeans. Combat any claims of racism by pointing out that, in the setting, vampires are evil, evil, bad, bad people secretly controlling the world and are the most privileged wealthy group. If you associate Vampires = Villains = White Europeans, all claims of racism should fall flat, in theory, no?
Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.
I realize there's a lot of very problematic tropes in Vampire: The Masquerade's canon, and it's difficult to escape because some staples rely on awful stereotypes: The Giovanni. The Assamites. The Ravnos. Alll of these rely on shitty stereotypes to really 'work.' But, as a community, don't we want to get as many people playing this game we love as we can?
Ankha: Gypsy is a slur, even if there are other uses. People of Roma descent consider it a slur, so how does the game benefit by using it? It's a shitty card with a shittier name. It could very easily be renamed 'Romani Travellers' and lose none of the flavor and not use what can be perceived as racist terminology. where's the loss?
Malachy: Do you have a problem with not using an ethnic slur? in what way does the game benefit from using it? how is using the term "Gypsy" vital to capturing the essence of the World of Darkness? please show your work
For me, it's pretty simple: use of the word 'gypsy' can limit who plays this game, it's in generally poor taste to begin with. Not using it makes the game more inclusive and doesn't hurt the overall theme of the game. Seriously, what is lost besides casual racism?
And for the record, as a straight white dude, I'd like to see even more Inclusion with regard to race and sexuality. Representation matters, and there's a huge bloc of people who are willing to hand over cash for a game that makes it a point to include them. It's not just smart business, it's being kind to other people who love what we love.
The problem here, as I see it, is that general public did not understand what racism really is. They know, mostly from US cultural dominance, that "N word" is bad, even if it's widely used by African-Americans, so they've made some crazy logical construct in their minds connecting slavery, civil rights movement and this word. So in their mind racism is using a word against which some ethnic minority with a history of oppression is actively protesting.
So if there is no Romani Martin Luther King Jr., who is leading widespread movement, publicly connecting 1000 (!) year history of persecution with the "G word", than there is no racism at all. Or that if we remove "Gypsies" card and other "offensive words", but leave Ravnos clan as is, than there will be no racism in the game.
Actually I think there will be more racism in the game if currently obscure card will be added to ban list (or list of erratas) and as a consequence widely advertised to all playerbase and even to non players, showing interest in VtES.
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
> The problem here, as I see it, is that general public did not understand what racism really is. They know, mostly from US cultural dominance, that "N word" is bad, even if it's widely used by African-Americans, so they've made some crazy logical construct in their minds connecting slavery, civil rights movement and this word. So in their mind racism is using a word against which some ethnic minority with a history of oppression is actively protesting.
>
> So if there is no Romani Martin Luther King Jr., who is leading widespread movement, publicly connecting 1000 (!) year history of persecution with the "G word", than there is no racism at all. Or that if we remove "Gypsies" card and other "offensive words", but leave Ravnos clan as is, than there will be no racism in the game.
>
> Actually I think there will be more racism in the game if currently obscure card will be added to ban list (or list of erratas) and as a consequence widely advertised to all playerbase and even to non players, showing interest in VtES.
>
Build a core with reprints of Jyhad, VtES, Ancient Heats and Dark Sovereigns, banning all cards from these sets that are not reprinted in this core.
That way there is no more obscure cards coming up in lists or anything.
Brujah needs a better Inner Circle and Ventrue need a better Justicar.
Malks need better G1, Brujah and Nosferatu as well.
Staples can be reprinted, rules can be tweaked.
Add 180 cardboard counters like FFG ones for Netrunner, double sided with and on different side.
> Brum wrote:
>
> Build a core with reprints of Jyhad, VtES, Ancient Heats and Dark Sovereigns, banning all cards from these sets that are not reprinted in this core.
>
Actually this is not so bad an idea for moving VtES forward.
Rule "You may play with old cards only if they are reprinted in BC products" sounds much more elegant than long banned list.
If BC will not reprint any Assamites, Giovanni and Ravnos, than even the problem with the racism will be solved.
Actually, what really the game will lose without this clans? SpeedShamblers, ClownCar and one flavour of PowerBleed?
NC Russia
Wait, wait.
I'm not saying to ban full clans forever.
I'm saying to renew interest and reprint what is good and fun.
Maybe some erratas.
Also, throw new crypt 1 and 2 vamps in there, for everyone to have interest.
Just start with a new core.
Revision all WtoC material in phases, starting with a Core.
One or two years later, do a Sabbat/SW core.
I was under the impression that instead of doing a core assortment (in which case I'd say it would be better off if the Library cards were along the lines of CE of KoT), BCP's interest was doing an all-in-one box so it would be an easy jump in point for beginners.
You know, 4-5 (preferably latter) decks and all the necessary gear needed for a game of VTES.
Add up core set to that and whoops it is so much out of price range that way fewer people will pick it up.
Also core set boxes for VTES are mighty problematic as you have no card limit and core sets tend to have hundreds of cards so probably not that many copies each on a core box. Meaning people will need to purchase quite a few to be able to play with decks requiring 10-20 copies of a card.
Finnish Politics!
Can we bury the discussion ? It's game about damn murdering abusing terrorizing and raping vampiric monsters. And people are bringing things that they feel offended ? Really ? You are not offended when one vampire rape each other's mind and kill people right and left, but you are screaming if some are called nigger or gypsy? Can i point you to damn 'my little pony' card game ? Any by whom = by americans who started hundred wars and are currently raping and bombing sovereign countries ? FUCK USA.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
It wasn't meant to be. Did you checked latest VtM 5th edition rpg? It have openly nazi character, vtm5th edition early playtest had pedo chick as one of the playable character. The game theme overall is edgy af, and people here scream about gypsy ... all that while not banning govern, pentex and deflection. For me, they can ban all those unplayable crap gypsy cards and also pentex, govern and deflection, as GAMEPLAY>caring about feelings. (also, Sasha is true transgender, i don't even know how to call him/her/xer?)
And yes, usa is problem country trying to shove it's ideals down our throats.All that while bombing other countries without war declaration and supporting clearly racist countries like israel and saudi arabia ...
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> Lech wrote:
> You are not offended when one vampire rape each other's mind and kill people right and left, but you are screaming if some are called nigger or gypsy?
>
This is, maybe, worth answering too, because the difference between events in a game (or in an any cultural product like books or movie) and objects of the real world (like cards with slur names or game concepts like "all middle eastern vampires are terrorist fanatics") should be clearly pointed or is too hard to understand for somebody.
> Any by whom = by americans who started hundred wars and are currently raping and bombing sovereign countries ? FUCK USA.
>
OK, this is just stupid.
NC Russia
But entire Assamite clan is cliche of arab terrorism, straight out of cia playbook narrative. It's way more offensive than some sparse usage of gypsy word. Pedo inbreed italian cliche is also way more offensive than this.
Regarding usa, in Poland there station usa-spineless-murderers-soldiers, de facto occupying my country. I have every right to insult them.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> Brum wrote:
> Wait, wait.
>
> I'm not saying to ban full clans forever.
>
Obviously you are not saying it, BC will not do it, but still the game could have been much better without them.
NC Russia
I'm this '-' close never to read this forum again. The sheer volume of gibberish is UNREAL... And Elotar is amongst the ones I can agree with, that is concerning ( Sorry bro, had to fire that shot )
Self biased! I understand you have some sort of inner compulsion to fight racism, but trust me, here is none! That game is outside any of this 21th century snowflake pride stuff, please keep it that way. Play the game for what it is... A cardgame originated in a roleplaying game of the '90s, using its terminology and background... Word of Darkness... a much grimmer and darker reflection of our world... ring a bell?
NC of Hungary
///
> Lönkka wrote:
> I was under the impression that instead of doing a core assortment (in which case I'd say it would be better off if the Library cards were along the lines of CE of KoT), BCP's interest was doing an all-in-one box so it would be an easy jump in point for beginners.
>
I do not think it's a conflicting goals. You need starter set for a new players, but you also need some way for them to develop their decks, and it must be deep enough to make deckbuilding process interesting.
Obviously it's better to do around some core concept of several basic clans with interloping disciplines.
Possibility to get rid of some both offensive clan concepts and stupid useless mono-clan disciplines like is a side benefit.
NC Russia
@Lech: As an American, there is a difference between our Nation and our Govt. The vast majority of the American people don't want to be meddling in the affairs of other countries or fighting wars, but our Govt is a separate entity beyond our control, unfortunately.
(But wait, wasn't Trump trying to cut US defense spending on foreign (European) countries? Will this coincide with a decreased military presence in those countries? HMMMmmmm)
@SelfBiased: I'm all for being inclusive, but the absolute wrong way to go about it is: "Are you brown/black/yellow/blue? Well, golly geez, do we have the clan for you!" or trying to fill some arbitrary POC representation quota.
The reality is that the majority of the people who play card & board games are overwhelmingly male, white men. As someone living in the Southern US where the black population is approx. 45-50%, if I go to my FLGS the breakdown is 75% men, and 85% white people. I don't think VTES has ever had a problem representing the demographics of the world (vampire or otherwise), but if we're shooting for a target demographic to get into this game, it should be white women IMO.
Relevant:
Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.
> Lech wrote:
> Regarding usa, in Poland there station usa-spineless-murderers-soldiers, de facto occupying my country. I have every right to insult them.
>
This is interesting view on things because russian ... soviet troops ... Unified Armed Forces of the Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Mutual Assistance was kind of pushed out from Poland by the same people, who, as it seems, now struggling under the dirty Feet of Evil US Imperialist Machine.
NC Russia
I hated on soviet troops just as much as on usa troops today. It's cancer to be occupied. My hatred is ofc focused on your government @LivesByProxy, i don't even like my government why would i like something that is way worse.
But again regarding the game, it's now impossible to touch one concept (gypsies) without touching others (assamite, setite, ravnos, giovanni) to not break the entire game. It's thus pointless to bring cornercases like gypsies (cards that NO ONE PLAY AND NO ONE WILL PLAY), it's better to just let it rot and try to create now interesting vampires and themes.No one will reprint those cards, because they are weak, not because they are offensive. Seriously self-biased bring more harm to his cause than good.
Also, the setting is meant to be offensive, it's based on world of darkness, thus using strong themes is fully justified. We, as humans, should know it's just a game based upon fiction that is portraying world even worse than one we currently belong to.
Regarding diversity, well, the game mostly portrays western civilization (as is, mexico-usa-canada+ western europe). What was exact proportions of skin tone in those countries in 90'? What was exact proportions of people playing MtG in those years?
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> LivesByProxy wrote:
> I don't think VTES has ever had a problem representing the demographics of the world (vampire or otherwise), but if we're shooting for a target demographic to get into this game, it should be white women IMO.
>
Actually I think shooting for a white women is not only racist but also sexist.
But it still will be a good point to look at player types other than highly competitive experienced tournament players when thinking about the ways to develop the game. My experience shows that it never work in discussions at this forum, thow.
NC Russia
> Malachy wrote:
> Self biased! I understand you have some sort of inner compulsion to fight racism, but trust me, here is none! That game is outside any of this 21th century snowflake pride stuff, please keep it that way. Play the game for what it is... A cardgame originated in a roleplaying game of the '90s, using its terminology and background... Word of Darkness... a much grimmer and darker reflection of our world... ring a bell?
>
please explain to me how using racist terminology is essential to the overall feel and tone of the game?
> LivesByProxy wrote:
>
> @SelfBiased: I'm all for being inclusive, but the absolute wrong way to go about it is: "Are you brown/black/yellow/blue? Well, golly geez, do we have the clan for you!" or trying to fill some arbitrary POC representation quota.
>
except That is in no way what i said, or suggested.
I said that I'd like to see more inclusion with regard to race, sexuality, and gender. I feel that representation of these groups is important for a variety of reasons.
Please don't misrepresent my statments in the future.
> Lech wrote:
> I hated on soviet troops just as much as on usa troops today. It's cancer to be occupied. My hatred is ofc focused on your government @LivesByProxy, i don't even like my government why would i like something that is way worse.
>
I do not want to destroy your "castle of universal hatred" but unfortunately for at least two thousand years there is no other way of a territory to exist other than with military presence (and, as a consequence - control) of some empire-like entity, except rare situations, when it's stuck in the middle of the two and got some freedoms while big ones struggle to not let each other to take full control of it.
Poland was one of them some time ago and, by the way, there is one school of thought here, saying that if Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth managed to hold control of Russia in the XVII century than many crazy events in the later history of this part of the world may be avoided.
> Lech wrote:
> But again regarding the game, it's now impossible to touch one concept (gypsies) without touching others (assamite, setite, ravnos, giovanni) to not break the entire game.
>
Do not see any problem with settites - stereotyping snake cultists from conan the barbarian is not a problem for anybody.
NC Russia
You have gay, lesbian, transsexual, pedophile, sadists, masochists, bisexuals, people of all races. It's one of the most inclusive game on the market. I guess even some of those are overrepresented compared to humans on physical land the game is based upon. Content should first and foremost fit the theme and be good. Quality is way more important than representation.
@elotar: don't worry, my caste of universal and inclusive hatred is going strong! And i know history well. Sadly, we taken stupid part of vasa family, i wish we would take the other one, we would be empire others would hate.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> LivesByProxy wrote:
> The reality is that the majority of the people who play card & board games are overwhelmingly male, white men. As someone living in the Southern US where the black population is approx. 45-50%, if I go to my FLGS the breakdown is 75% men, and 85% white people. I don't think VTES has ever had a problem representing the demographics of the world (vampire or otherwise), but if we're shooting for a target demographic to get into this game, it should be white women IMO.
>
The largest region for growth in V:TES has been in Brazil, a nation that is very diverse in terms of ethnicity and skin color.
It's not the North Atlantic Nations of Darkness. It's the World of Darkness.
It's also woefully underrepresented. Is there any Prince/Archbishop/Cardinal from South America? What about eastern Europe, like for example Moscow, Warsaw, Bucarest ? Nope, only Prague. India ? Not much. At least laibon have africa covered. So it IS mostly North Atlantic of Darkness (covering mostly old NATO and some of it's unofficial colonies).
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> self wrote:
>
> > LivesByProxy wrote:
> >
> > @SelfBiased: I'm all for being inclusive, but the absolute wrong way to go about it is: "Are you brown/black/yellow/blue? Well, golly geez, do we have the clan for you!" or trying to fill some arbitrary POC representation quota.
> >
> except That is in no way what i said, or suggested.
>
> I said that I'd like to see more inclusion with regard to race, sexuality, and gender. I feel that representation of these groups is important for a variety of reasons.
>
> Please don't misrepresent my statements in the future.
>
@SelfBiased: I wasn't trying to misrepresent anyone's statements. I was just remarking about the nature of inclusion (done wrong) and old WW's... design(?) of clans and their... flavor(?)
The best clans of the game are those that don't have any race / class association with them. Any person can be a Gangrel because 'beastial / animalistic vampires' are abstract enough to incorporate just about any sort of demographic you can imagine. Same goes for Nosferatu (ugly, diseased, monstrous looks = universal archetype), Toreador (sexy, beautiful vampires can be any race or person), and Malkavian (madness is universal, no?). The worst clans IMO are those that either implicitly racial (Giovanni, Ravnos, Assamites) or class-based (Ventrue are ostensibly 'rich people', Brujah are 'punks, anarchists, gangbangers, rebels').
I do agree with you though, the Gypsies card could easily be changed to 'Romani Travelers' and nothing of value will have been lost.
@BenPeal: I'd still be interested in knowing the racial / sexual composition of Brazil's VTES community. Also, what are the Brazilians doing that's earning them so many players? What technique(s) are they using to promote and grow the game? (Genuine Question)
Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.
The card in question hasn't been printed in over 20 years. Nearly every copy of it is sealed away in in a box and never sees the light of day, because it's such a bad card no one plays with it. Re-naming a card would require reprinting it, which no one has any interest in doing for this particular one (again, because it's so useless). If your intention was seriously (including a meme in your initial post really doesn't lead itself to seriousness) to eliminate offensive terminology (of which this is questionable, at best) from the game; congratulations, you just achieved the opposite and re-introduced it to everyone.
So much this @1uck
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> 1uck wrote:
> The card in question hasn't been printed in over 20 years. Nearly every copy of it is sealed away in in a box and never sees the light of day, because it's such a bad card no one plays with it. Re-naming a card would require reprinting it, which no one has any interest in doing for this particular one (again, because it's so useless). If your intention was seriously (including a meme in your initial post really doesn't lead itself to seriousness) to eliminate offensive terminology (of which this is questionable, at best) from the game; congratulations, you just achieved the opposite and re-introduced it to everyone.
>
The card in question is still in the card lists on the website, so it's still there for all to see. I'm not so sure that renaming a defunct card requires it being reprinted; the powers that be can do whatever they want on the matter. Besides, if the card's so worthless, why fight so hard to keep the name the same? That's baffling to me.
As it's evident that there's a significant portion of people out there who are wholly ignorant of the racist origins of the word 'Gypsy,' the meme struck me as appropriate because of the message that most people probably don't want to unknowingly use a racial slur; the part where it states 'I know you're not doing it maliciously.' I wanted to give people the benefit of the doubt.
If you had a friend of some ethnic group, and they asked you to not use a word they considered offensive, would you do it? Or would you keep using the word?
> Lech wrote:
> It's also woefully underrepresented. Is there any Prince/Archbishop/Cardinal from South America? What about eastern Europe, like for example Moscow, Warsaw, Bucarest ? Nope, only Prague. India ? Not much. At least laibon have africa covered. So it IS mostly North Atlantic of Darkness (covering mostly old NATO and some of it's unofficial colonies).
>
It's not a deliberate slight;
No matter what, we are based on source material. Said source material is incredibly rich in dealing with Russia and former Soviet satellite countries. Prague hell, that's historically had things relevant to stories at large, and thus was a component of vtmDA, and the first 1/4 of the setting for VTMR for pc. Berlin had 2 princes at once, and still has both a prince and an archbishop even after the wall fell like 30 years ago.
South America is SHIT for established sects. Why? Consistantly being home of tons of Garou and fera, being a bastion of infernalist ancients, being home to ancient methuselahs long hidden under the equator before other kindred crossed the ocean, and also more recently being host to its "indigenous " bloodlines referred to as the drowned legacies, surging up to route cam and sabbat influence.
Now, Rio is a different story, where Cam and Sabbat in fact exist in tandem with shockingly little conflict.
Russia was mystically sealed from the outside world by forces that made vampires who entered the "curtain of shadows " stuck and unable to leave, until Baba Yaga was killed by a Nictuku.
Now, anarchs replaced princes with barons before and during the removal of the czar from power. They maintained this setup with ONE exception until they were shut down by Baba Yaga somewhat openly ruling the place.
St Petersburgs prince Nicolai is a ventrue whi loves the city. The anarch Brujah took out his site and installed him to essentially put up a front of everything being ok, as the city was a gateway of sorts. For his part, he hated the murder of his sire and intends to have his vengeance in part by outliving the murderers.
Nearly ALL of this is from Becketts Jyhad Diaries, a V20 book, with some being from far older sources.
Like it or not, we are rooted in the source material. Dig a little and submit ideas. I promise its easier and has more validity than other paths.
Also, India is traditionally Ravnos land, where they are the locals not wandering tricksters. They war with the KotE constantly.
Laibon are localized to sub saharan Africa, with Guruhi representing much more of the ruling class and magagi thsn game balance allows showing in vtes. If you compile all ventrue to non ventrue princes in source materials and get that ratio(9to1ish) that's similar to guruhi yo non guruhi magagi.
Northern Africa has hosted cam and Sabbat for ages. The first and second cities existed around the fertile crescent, with clans spreading from there, nominally.
So, I concede underrepresented things you mentioned, but have explained enough about the areas to theoretically give you ideas on how to submit remedies.
> self wrote:
>
> > Malachy wrote:
> > Self biased! I understand you have some sort of inner compulsion to fight racism, but trust me, here is none! That game is outside any of this 21th century snowflake pride stuff, please keep it that way. Play the game for what it is... A cardgame originated in a roleplaying game of the '90s, using its terminology and background... Word of Darkness... a much grimmer and darker reflection of our world... ring a bell?
> >
> please explain to me how using racist terminology is essential to the overall feel and tone of the game?
>
Racist terminology is not, originality is. But having a card named "Gypsies" created in the ninties, when people were expected to use brain cells to figure out it is not racist to depict an ethnical group without the slightest derogatory sense. Who... in their right mind... could find that card offensive??? You explain this to me, Self biased. It's like banning old movies because all the lead roles played by white, heterosexual poeple... Should I feel rightfully offended when a boardgame invented in Asia doesn't have white figures?
NC of Hungary
///
> Malachy wrote:
> It's like banning old movies because all the lead roles played by white, heterosexual poeple...
>
Actually, as SB do not bother to comment on really problematic parts of WoD setting but just continuing to argue about one card name, I think he really do not care about racism at all, he just moves agenda of US leftists, who are totally into fighting forms of artistic expressions. Critics against old movies not passing "modern standards" is quite widespread as I know.
NC Russia
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
>
> No matter what, we are based on source material. Said source material is incredibly ...
>
Said source material is incredibly stupid and contradictial. And everybody understands that - nobody is complaining, for example, that there was no Walter Nash in Chicago by Night.
So, obviously, if we need to have vampire who kicks ass it's better to use Theo Bell, then invent something, but if we want South American princes and there are no in official WoD, nothng should stop us to invent one.
And, actually, there are 5 South American princes in VTM
NC Russia
> Malachy wrote:
> Who... in their right mind... could find that card offensive???
>
Romani. Romani would.
Why are you understanding this as "I, a white bored person, want to complain about a concept that I happen to find offensive" instead of what it is "I, PoC, consider this to be a direct insult against myself. Stop using it".
PoC exist, and they complain about stuff that target them because of being PoC. This is not like being offended because a boob is shown on a card, is because it is a direct insult to a part of the human population.
I could reiterate comparing the use of this word with the word "Nigger" (if Romani understand this word as such). We wouldn't keep a card called "Nigger", we shouldn't keep this card name either.
> Ratadin wrote:
> I could reiterate comparing the use of this word with the word "Nigger" (if Romani understand this word as such). We wouldn't keep a card called "Nigger", we shouldn't keep this card name either.
>
Actually I'm interested, what your doctrine says about Nigeria and Montenegro countries? Should we keep them in our "civilized" world?
NC Russia
> Ratadin wrote:
> Of course the name of a country is the same as a card. Yep,
>
Quite funny, in Russian there is one word for both "card" and "map" so it is quite literally the same.
Maybe that's why all this "fight" against "bad words" by the same people, who, I think, will vocally oppose most of the real life values of a Romani people, seems so stupid to me.
NC Russia
> Malachy wrote:
> But having a card named "Gypsies" created in the ninties, when people were expected to use brain cells to figure out it is not racist to depict an ethnical group without the slightest derogatory sense. Who... in their right mind... could find that card offensive???
>
I personally do not find the card name offensive and also do not think it needs changing. However, what is considered racist does indeed change over time, for various, sometimes sociopolitical, reasons (this is the case in the US; I do not know about other countries). For example, there is a baseball team from Cleveland, Ohio, called the Indians. Since 1948, that team had logo depicting a cartoonish Native American with deep red skin and a goofy smile. For years and years, this logo was used without regard to whether it was racist or not; there was really no public outcry. But, over the past couple of years, people have petitioned for the team to remove the logo, including indigenous Native American groups, who believed the logo to depict Native Americans in a negative, racist way. Because of these recent petitions, the team decided to stop using the logo starting next season. Read about it here:
www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/sports/baseball/cleveland-indians-chief-wahoo-logo.html
So, coming back to the card in question and use of Gypsies: this situation is different because the backlash of use of the word "gypsy" largely does not appear to be coming from Roma groups petitioning that the word is racist, but rather from other ethnic groups claiming that the word is racist. Why is this happening? One theory is that, because Gypsy is an exonym that attributes the geographic origin of the Roma as Egypt instead of India, there is now a movement to correct the wrongful attribution. In other words, the reason behind why "gypsy" is racist is that the term "gypsy" was given to the Roma people by white people, who were calling them Egyptians and not Indians, because all people with dark skin look the same (that's the theory, not my opinion).
Much like the case with the Cleveland Indians logo, there has only been recent public outcry over the term "gypsy" being racist. What I don't know, and what I'd like to know, is how the Roma people consider the word "gypsy". Is it actually offensive to them? Or have they adopted the term and don't find it offensive? I've read many conflicting reports on this subject.
Few I know we're not offended by word Cygan which is i believe directly translated as gypsy. My info might be outdated, as it was like 10-15 years ago.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> What I don't know, and what I'd like to know, is how the Roma people consider the word "gypsy". Is it actually offensive to them? Or have they adopted the term and don't find it offensive? I've read many conflicting reports on this subject.
>
I think in this thread most offensive for them is an assumption that words, used by ganjos in their stupid card game, can some how mean a shit to proper romani.
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
>
> > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > What I don't know, and what I'd like to know, is how the Roma people consider the word "gypsy". Is it actually offensive to them? Or have they adopted the term and don't find it offensive? I've read many conflicting reports on this subject.
> >
> I think in this thread most offensive for them is an assumption that words, used by ganjos in their stupid card game, can some how mean a shit to proper romani.
>
No need to speculate. Google "is gypsy racist". The top results are all Romani people saying that the word "gypsy" is an ethnic slur.
> Kushiel wrote:
>
> > elotar wrote:
> >
> > > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > > What I don't know, and what I'd like to know, is how the Roma people consider the word "gypsy". Is it actually offensive to them? Or have they adopted the term and don't find it offensive? I've read many conflicting reports on this subject.
> > >
> > >
> > I think in this thread most offensive for them is an assumption that words, used by ganjos in their stupid card game, can some how mean a shit to proper romani.
> >
> No need to speculate. Google "is gypsy racist". The top results are all Romani people saying that the word "gypsy" is an ethnic slur.
>
Be careful when looking at the top result of google. They are certainly not a proof of anything, and can lead to a lot of racist content: theoutline.com/post/1430/google-finally-realized-that-racist-search-results-are-a-problem
Also, racism is about considering that some "races" (what an awful word when talking about humans) is superior to another. With Gypsy, we are talking about a pejorative connotation, ethnic slur if you want, but not racism.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> elotar wrote:
>
> > ReverendRevolver wrote:
> >
> > No matter what, we are based on source material. Said source material is incredibly ...
> >
> Said source material is incredibly stupid and contradictial. And everybody understands that - nobody is complaining, for example, that there was no Walter Nash in Chicago by Night.
>
> So, obviously, if we need to have vampire who kicks ass it's better to use Theo Bell, then invent something, but if we want South American princes and there are no in official WoD, nothng should stop us to invent one.
>
> And, actually, there are 5 South American princes in VTM
>
I cannot dispute the self conflicting source material, I can only be confused like the rest of us. Serious retcons occur in V20 BH and Becketts Jyhad Diaries. Incidentally, the BH is put up as more optional. But doesn't do anything but allude to an invasion of enoch in shadow lands leaving damage here or there. Anyway:
Becketts jyhad diaries:
P370, while waiting on something far more important to happen (which ends up using or name dropping like 5 vtes salubri and a few tremere, seriously using only ppl on cards instead of nameless extras) Beckett and Rebekah(the iconnu monitor, formerly of chicago) are discussing Chicago politics. Beckett badgers her (and she plainly gives no shits about politics) Into her guess who will be prince if one is chosen. She says her money is on Maxwell, but Jackson and Dusable are both likely. She says she also put Capone and "Sir Walter" as also-runs. Then says some reason against Capone, and says the kindred of Chicago "Detest Nash"
I feel like much of that book is life imitating art, where the source material looks to be drawing from VTES. Hilarious.
Elator, yourself and Lech have recently provided quite constructive disagreements with what I post from source materials, and while we plainly do not agree, I wouldn't change a thing, as they have been the least "E-Troll" occurrences in ages. Thank you, gentlemen.
Please, continue. My secret end goal is to keep going until whatever we argue about becomes a whole set next year
> self wrote:
> And for the record, as a straight white dude, I'd like to see even more Inclusion with regard to race and sexuality. Representation matters, and there's a huge bloc of people who are willing to hand over cash for a game that makes it a point to include them. It's not just smart business, it's being kind to other people who love what we love.
>
Android: Netrunner was specifically doing this from jump. The number of minority and and female characters outnumbered the white males by a very large margin. And, to your point, it worked in helping appeal to those groups and made them excited about the game.
> Ankha wrote:
> Be careful when looking at the top result of google. They are certainly not a proof of anything, and can lead to a lot of racist content: theoutline.com/post/1430/google-finally-realized-that-racist-search-results-are-a-problem
>
> Also, racism is about considering that some "races" (what an awful word when talking about humans) is superior to another. With Gypsy, we are talking about a pejorative connotation, ethnic slur if you want, but not racism.
>
The question was: Do Romani find usage of the word "gypsy" offensive? My answer is: Here's evidence that they do.
> Kushiel wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > Be careful when looking at the top result of google. They are certainly not a proof of anything, and can lead to a lot of racist content: theoutline.com/post/1430/google-finally-realized-that-racist-search-results-are-a-problem
> >
> > Also, racism is about considering that some "races" (what an awful word when talking about humans) is superior to another. With Gypsy, we are talking about a pejorative connotation, ethnic slur if you want, but not racism.
> >
> The question was: Do Romani find usage of the word "gypsy" offensive? My answer is: Here's evidence that they do.
>
I am sorry for them, but there is nothing I can do about it.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> I am sorry for them, but there is nothing I can do about it.
>
What, precisely, is keeping you from changing the name of the card?
I understand that the answer to this question may be "I can't tell you, due to the terms of the licensing agreement," but if that is not the answer, It seems like it's as simple as altering text in a handful files.
With the recent heat White Wolf has gotten over the release of V5, this seems like a super easy fix and a chance for the people to say "Look we fixed this awful thing!"
> self wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > I am sorry for them, but there is nothing I can do about it.
> >
> What, precisely, is keeping you from changing the name of the card?
>
> I understand that the answer to this question may be "I can't tell you, due to the terms of the licensing agreement," but if that is not the answer, It seems like it's as simple as altering text in a handful files.
>
> With the recent heat White Wolf has gotten over the release of V5, this seems like a super easy fix and a chance for the people to say "Look we fixed this awful thing!"
>
This is an issue which goes all the way back to 1st Edition Vampire: the Masquerade and how the Ravnos were originally portrayed, which was as "trickster gypsy thieves". They caught flak for it, as they should have, and later made significant changes to the clan in later editions, such as expanding their background to include India.
The cards from Jyhad and V:TES, however, remain. Gypsies, Rom Gypsy, and Tsigane (a another spelling of the slur "cigany") are still in the game. To my knowledge no newer cards from Final Nights and onward used such language, and I think this is consistent with the changes in later editions of V:tM. So at least in some way, the course correction to improve things in V:TES had already been made 17 years ago.
I think it's fair to take a look back on the content in the game and re-assess. I disagree with my colleague Vincent in that I don't think there is nothing we can do. I also do not think we should simply wait for enough Roma people to complain before taking action. We can certainly try to improve things without waiting for someone to complain. Sure, changing the text of the cards in a spreadsheet is meaningless when the printed cards are still out there. However, we can make the decision to not reprint those cards (we'd have to pay for new artwork anyway because of the artwork rights). We can reprint them with a different name (such as Raven/Camille Devereaux). We can wallpaper them by making a new versions with improvements (Gypsies and Rom Gypsy don't see play anyway). Maybe there are other options out there.
Is this going to happen right away? Well, I suppose we can start not reprinting them immediately. As for other options, I'll definitely put this issue on the list of things to tackle when it comes time to work on Independents again. Given that the VtM sourcebook roadmap is Camarilla and Anarchs in 2018 and Sabbat in 2019, I'm guessing we're not going to get around to Ravnos again until late 2019 at the earliest and quite possibly not until 2020.
Thank you, Ben, for acknowledging that there's improvement to be made. That's basically the heart the matter for me, and realistically, all I was asking for.
In my first response in this thread, I acknowledged that there was all kinds of awful, problematic stereotypes in the past of Vampire: The Masquerade. It'd be amazing if going forward White Wolf can make amends to the people who've had their culture portrayed in a disrespectful manner (Which isn't to say that there aren't skeletons in any given closet).
The acknowledgement of "hey, this thing happened in the twenty years ago, it wasn't really okay then, and it surely isn't okay now, so we're going in a different direction" is meaningful, and shows that y'all care about making this World of Darkness something everyone regardless of their circumstances can identify with.
edit: I'd argue that changing text in a spreadsheet is meaningful in that you're saying that this thing from the past isn't acceptable anymore. If it's ever asked "Hey, why did they change the name of "Gypsies" to "Romani Travelers?" the reply is "they felt it was racist and changed it." easy peasy.
> BenPeal wrote:
> We can wallpaper them by making a new versions with improvements (Gypsies and Rom Gypsy don't see play anyway).
>
Not True!
Kamel was playing a Week of Nightmares deck in EC 2004 (Heidelberg) featuring a host of Suddens and DIs as well as several Rom Gypsies (foiling my Daring the Dawns).
So usage at high level tournaments is prove.
Although it has been quite a while... :/
Finnish Politics!
> self wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > I am sorry for them, but there is nothing I can do about it.
> >
> What, precisely, is keeping you from changing the name of the card?
>
> I understand that the answer to this question may be "I can't tell you, due to the terms of the licensing agreement," but if that is not the answer, It seems like it's as simple as altering text in a handful files.
>
> With the recent heat White Wolf has gotten over the release of V5, this seems like a super easy fix and a chance for the people to say "Look we fixed this awful thing!"
>
They would need to WASTE space reprinting this unplayable trash. That is good enough reason.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> Lech wrote:
> They would need to WASTE space reprinting this unplayable trash. That is good enough reason.
>
I disagree on both counts. They can just change the name in the databases and not reprint the card.
I also feel that taking steps to show respect to other cultures and people is a great reason to make these changes.
If they symbolically changed the name in the official listing and never reprinted it, the card would be in limbo.
A card in the listing that doesn’t exist, and cards in circulation that can’t be found in the listing.
This is why SJW's get a bad rap. This is an unimportant issue in a game that also uses 'gaje' which is a Romany derogatory term for people who are not Roma, akin to the Mexican slang 'gringo'. From a country where the word 'nigga' is socially acceptable, and not just coming from blacks (B.Real from Cypress Hill and Tarantino movies come to mind), this is one of the least worries about racism. Cher had recorded a popular song that had the line: "We heard it from the people of the town, they called us 'gypsies, tramps and thieves', we can infer that gypsy is derogatory but nobody's defending tramps and thieves. If we had a card entitled "No Good, Two Bit Whore" nobody should be trying to change it to "Streetwise Pro". The world that this card game is set in seems comfortable with gritty, derogatory,street settings as well as rich, conservative, political settings and rides the balance of this in a believable fashion.
I never thought that "hey, could we please not use racist terminology in this game we all enjoy" would be such a hard sell.
Personally, I'm a big fan of being kind to people who play the game and refraining from using racist terminology seems like a simple thing to me. Yes, it's the world of Darkness, but perhaps the roleplaying game is a better venue for exploring those more gritty and unsavory themes than a card game that paints the setting in such broad strokes.
Kraus, I don't think there's really much more in the way of discussion here, especially after Ben's response, so go ahead and lock the thread if you feel it's the right thing to do.
> Kraus, I don't think there's really much more in the way of discussion here, especially after Ben's response, so go ahead and lock the thread if you feel it's the right thing to do.
>
Correct. A response as official as the thread warrants has been given.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
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