Could VTES get something like Legacy Format (from Magic)?

Most of the card games have a more free or malleable type of tournament. Magic have the Legacy Format and back when Legend of the Five Rings still were produced by AEG, I played some Open Format tournaments. Both of the above formats have in common the possibility to construct decks with cards from any and all of the editions and expansions ever released. We don't have in VTES editions limitations, when constructing decks. But we get the group aspect when choosing the vampires for our deck cripty. So, may question is: Will we get some day in the future, a "Open Format Tournament" without groups restrictions? And could some of the banned cards be allowed on that Open Format? Priest of Rio de Janeiro My blog: Portal Distant Kingdoms Facebook: Distant Kingdoms Youtube: Distant Shore

It's not under consideration for the time being. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> KzArashi wrote: > Most of the card games have a more free or malleable type of tournament. > Magic have the Legacy Format and back when Legend of the Five Rings still were produced by AEG, I played some Open Format tournaments. > Both of the above formats have in common the possibility to construct decks with cards from any and all of the editions and expansions ever released. > > We don't have in VTES editions limitations, when constructing decks. But we get the group aspect when choosing the vampires for our deck cripty. > > So, may question is: Will we get some day in the future, a "Open Format Tournament" without groups restrictions? And could some of the banned cards be allowed on that Open Format? > There was a tournament organized in Paris last September with this exact rules: - no grouping restriction - no banned cards except “ante” cards and Madness of the Bard Of course the tournament wasn’t official.

> cordovader wrote: > There was a tournament organized in Paris last September with this exact rules: > > - no grouping restriction > - no banned cards except “ante” cards and Madness of the Bard > > Of course the tournament wasn’t official. > And how did it go? Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Actually what is really needed for VtES is "Type II" format NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > Actually what is really needed for VtES is "Type II" format > No. We are back in print, and have a grouping rule. Due to the nature of vtes, filler/wallpaper isn't printed each set. Mtg exists with a certain business model in mind where you keep putting out $400 a year to remain competitive, vtes has a different model where you buy what you need to build what you want, but your same cards from 20 years ago will still get you by. While we could and should errata the junk and unplayable stuff and reprint it, there is no reason to remove options in deck construction from the game. The only viable limiting format arguments were secondary market prices. This will become a non issue thanks to Black chantry. Next please! Oh, and "legacy formats" aren't super important. "As printed" jhyad/vtes drafts were interesting though. While not an immediate priority from what I can guess, limited format support could be awesome. Imagine the next base set having draft text that matches first printing text. Could be interesting...

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > We are back in print, and have a grouping rule. Due to the nature of vtes, filler/wallpaper isn't printed each set. Mtg exists with a certain business model in mind where you keep putting out $400 a year to remain competitive, vtes has a different model where you buy what you need to build what you want, but your same cards from 20 years ago will still get you by. > honest question: should the opinions of people who haven't supported the game in 20+ years and are adamant that they shouldnt have to support the game financially be taken into consideration with regards to how the game is currently produced and distributed? Because every time it comes up in conversation, it feels like there's an egregious amount of fan entitlement at work.

> self wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > We are back in print, and have a grouping rule. Due to the nature of vtes, filler/wallpaper isn't printed each set. Mtg exists with a certain business model in mind where you keep putting out $400 a year to remain competitive, vtes has a different model where you buy what you need to build what you want, but your same cards from 20 years ago will still get you by. > > > honest question: should the opinions of people who haven't supported the game in 20+ years and are adamant that they shouldnt have to support the game financially be taken into consideration with regards to how the game is currently produced and distributed? Because every time it comes up in conversation, it feels like there's an egregious amount of fan entitlement at work. > So, you're asking that when new players give their opinions about why they wouldn't play the game (ie, that the production and distribution model is not ideal for them), nobody should consider their opinion? I'm not sure I agree with that. Then again, I don't seriously play this game and am not very invested in it. My opinion as a total casual fan is that opinions should always be welcome, but with the understanding from the game's current owners that opinions are like assholes: everyone's got one and they all stink.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > vtes has a different model where you buy what you need to build what you want, but your same cards from 20 years ago will still get you by. > Obviously it's not a business model - if you will be fine with the old cards then you will not be buying anything and the game will die (as new players still can't penetrate game with ~4000 available cards with corresponding "book of rulings"). And obviously even WW got it with power creep of the KoT and HttB sets. The second problem, outside of business considerations, which is really mostly for BC to "explore", is that if the meta does not change than it's not really interesting to play the same deck in the same environment again and again. There are bunch of players who like to experiment with some crappy clans/card combos, but in general it's a small minority of population. There may be not a single deck being THE best, but for individual play stile it really is the case. If you got the choice of playing Lutz again and again for a 10th year already or some clearly (for you) inferior deck, than you actually choosing not to play at all (it's a true story of one my friend). MTG approach is, obviously, a cash grab, but it's possible to invent system to change meta without just regularly wallpapering hundreds of cards. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > vtes has a different model where you buy what you need to build what you want, but your same cards from 20 years ago will still get you by. > > > Obviously it's not a business model - if you will be fine with the old cards then you will not be buying anything and the game will die > That's oversimplifying things by a long way. It overlooks the value provided by players being there to play against. If new players can't find people playing the game and can't get into those games, you may well lose the money they would spend. So a 2020 newbie buying $100-worth of the Game of Throats expansion and the Agents of C.A.I.N.E. starters may in fact be doing so because near to where she lives, there's a fairly regular tournament or game night that gets reasonably healthy numbers because a few oldbies with a Sabbat War era weenie DEM deck, group 1 Ventrue Law Firm, group 2/3 Giovanni power-bleed and a Howler wall as their favourite decks are boosting the numbers to a much more healthy level.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > It overlooks the value provided by players being there to play against. If new players can't find people playing the game and can't get into those games, you may well lose the money they would spend. > It's completely fictional story - in 99% of the world's locations there are no regular VtES gaming activity at all. "few oldbies" are sitting at home, and maybe(!) leave torpor for something like National. The logic here is also strange - 99% of old players are at like 30+ age group so usually can afford to spend some money and got crap loads of cards anyway. There are no problems for them to change their "Sabbat War era weenie" so it will comply with reasonable "Type II" tournament limits. NC Russia

Typically it's the "oldbies" of which you speak that lead the charge in new player acquisition. Also, future distribution models and print options point to mass orders of hand picked cards, meaning those torpid players can rebuild decks without taking current ones apart. Honestly, not having to move my Dual Lands strip mines, sac lands, etc was what really made vtes win my attention years ago, I could have 10+ competent playable decks without moving things. Then we went out of print and deep song, eyes of argus, and eventually freak drives became moved between decks. Then Anthology came out and upped my count on 2/3 of those, and we are in print, again now... Basically the insinuated possible production and distribution plans mean players new and old will have access to anything in nice quantity. That eases acquisition and retention. Obviously, if staples are in shops in sets new players have easier times. All the unplayable wallpaper is the only thing that helps the game being left out, to not confuse new players. Good teachers normally tell new players what cards are good and what cards suck, letting them try their hand with the ones in the middle. We saw a boom in new players once 8 years ago. This rant is based on actual facts of introduction and retention from then.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Obviously, if staples are in shops in sets new players have easier times. > Apart from some cards, there was never an availability problem in VtES even if we "forget" that tournaments allowed proxies - anybody with internet access could assemble competent (and long lasting!) deck for a price, much lower than what you will need to spend on tournament playable MTG one. Key problem for new players always was extreme complexity of the game, impossibility to grasp giant card pool and enormous experience gap. They do not care about difference in places, where to buy singles or their cost - if you want to save money you are not playing CCG. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > Key problem for new players always was extreme complexity of the game, impossibility to grasp giant card pool and enormous experience gap. They do not care about difference in places, where to buy singles or their cost - if you want to save money you are not playing CCG. > I have never, ever met a player who was discouraged by complexity of VtES. I'm 99% sure, I've never even heard of one, who goes like: nah, that game is too hard for me, I'll stick with MtG or Hearthstone. Card pool was not a problem either, because as you said, almost all decks can be assembled online, and it is amongst the rarest of cases, when a new player shows up that he learnt the game on his own, acquired some cards and now wants to actually play. I'm saying this because here, any new players recruited, were met with the oldbies' card pool at their feet. Yeah some of them left during the learning proccess, but most of them liked it and slowly built their own card pool, based on anything they wanted to try out and how they liked them. Thanks to that method, and the nature of VtES itself, around here, money was never a factor whether one plays the game or not. That was always the bold-lined destinction between MtG and VtES, and still is I believe. But eventually you will need money, yes, although not as much as buying packs for HS or MtG. The XP gap... well yeah, it exists and it gaps. One can only hope newbies will see it as an enticing goal to achieve, not as a chasm impossible to cross. Learning curve is very [sqrt x]-like, so to speak, some need only a coulpe of months, some years or eternity (good thing we are immortal vamps). A new format could be exciting, but I feel no need for it regarding recruiting new players. I know it's not the topic's main theme, but recruiting is our community's main issue, at least here, in Hungary. To avoid VtES being as Elotar described "the oldbies' game". I've been giviving it thoughts for so long, not to lure out the grumpy, ever-so-demanding old players, who usually sit on tonnes of cards but refusing to socialize and play, but to lure in new players. I might start a thread about this in the following days, so I'll stop offing this thread, mea culpa NC of Hungary ///

> elotar wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > It overlooks the value provided by players being there to play against. If new players can't find people playing the game and can't get into those games, you may well lose the money they would spend. > > > It's completely fictional story - in 99% of the world's locations there are no regular VtES gaming activity at all. "few oldbies" are sitting at home, and maybe(!) leave torpor for something like National. > > The logic here is also strange - 99% of old players are at like 30+ age group so usually can afford to spend some money and got crap loads of cards anyway. There are no problems for them to change their "Sabbat War era weenie" so it will comply with reasonable "Type II" tournament limits. > Here in the Twin Cities USA, we actually have a playgroup that plays regularly. I also here that there is regular group in Austin Texas as well as one in the bay area California. So I do think it actually is not a 'fictional story'. I concede though that 99% of worlds locations probably don't even know the game exists; I'm looking at you Antartica!!!! “I don’t have cross table buddies. I have a prey I haven’t gotten around to yet.” — Shockwave (English VtES Player).

> Thin_Blood wrote: > Here in the Twin Cities USA, we actually have a playgroup that plays regularly. I also here that there is regular group in Austin Texas as well as one in the bay area California. > You named 3 playgroups. How many cities you got in US? NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > Thin_Blood wrote: > > Here in the Twin Cities USA, we actually have a playgroup that plays regularly. I also here that there is regular group in Austin Texas as well as one in the bay area California. > > > You named 3 playgroups. How many cities you got in US? > each of those cities are *does some math* nearly 2000 km from each other.

> self wrote: > > > elotar wrote: > > > > > Thin_Blood wrote: > > > Here in the Twin Cities USA, we actually have a playgroup that plays regularly. I also here that there is regular group in Austin Texas as well as one in the bay area California. > > > > > > > > You named 3 playgroups. How many cities you got in US? > > > each of those cities are *does some math* nearly 2000 km from each other. > Real quick from memory, these are the cities/ states with a playgroup I've been to or met at an event in some state. (Note that going back 8 years in my memory means I remember not a ton) Seattle Vegas Colorado 3 in texas, not including the one the poster here mentioned, as of NAC 2010 3 different playgroups from there attended, one only had cards from the first 3 sets and drove to Louisiana from there, and neither of the other groups new them. Louisiana (dont remember city) Atlanta Ithaca NY Montana(I'll concede I met one dude ever, and the group was 5 ppl 8years ago) Flint MI Boston MA Columbus OH(technically 3ishplaygoups) Newark OH Cincinnati OH(might just be the Bells now) Zanesville OH(haven't spoken to in awhile) DC(may have evaporated) Look at my incredibly low rating and weigh in that these are just playgroups I've met people from at tournaments and remember. The country is huge, broke, and not in frequent communication with casual groups. If a player can afford a new set or a trip 4 states over, they'll enjoy a casual 4player game with new cards 90% of the time. I met people at week of nightmares Tuesday that live within 45 minutes of me I've never seen before. This is ohio. Imagine what a few enthusiastic groups in a more dense state could do? Anyway, Newark Ohio, 2008 14 ppl tournaments. 2010 17-20, with maybe a table worth of out of towners. Retention of your new players just getting over the learning curve drops when product dries up. Huge carpool is enticing, and learning curve means we all had 2ish stealth bleed decks in our bags for years "just incase" someone new asked about the game. Format isn't an issue. It's the answer to an imaginary problem. If a playgroup wants to only use half the entire carpool, good news! They omit banned carit's its legal.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > ...Huge carpool is enticing... > On the one hand depth is really one of the key strength of VtES. On the other - if cardpool is too big it became unmanageable, so deckbuilding degenerates into "browse TWDA, copy something". And the second "mode" is much worse, because we are not only losing main appeal of CCGs - playing with personally designed deck, but also gameplay suffers - ability to predict possible plays is much more relevant in VtES than in many other cards games and you can't do it if you do not hold "general understanding" of the card pool in the head. There are other problems as well, but for our main goal - bringing in more new players, it's IMO most important consideration. NC Russia