top ten worst....

Hello fellow methuselahs, I am still fairly new to the game, as you can see with my avatar, I'm much more used to play MTG. And it's still hard for me to assess the power level of Vtes cards. To give you an example I had always been doubtful about the might of Golconda, until I finally tried it last year, and I was amazed at how well it worked. however people always talk about powerful cards, so even when you don't try them it's fairly easy to know that a card is powerful, but how about bad cards ? what cards should I NOT consider to play ? what cards are a total waste of cardboard and space ? So I, thought I would ask you people of experience to play a little game and name what, in your opinion are the top ten worst Library cards (and why) and the top ten worst vamps. that woud be of help Thank you

> mathusalem wrote: > Hello fellow methuselahs, > > I am still fairly new to the game, as you can see with my avatar, I'm much more used to play MTG. And it's still hard for me to assess the power level of Vtes cards. To give you an example I had always been doubtful about the might of Golconda, until I finally tried it last year, and I was amazed at how well it worked. > > however people always talk about powerful cards, so even when you don't try them it's fairly easy to know that a card is powerful, but how about bad cards ? what cards should I NOT consider to play ? what cards are a total waste of cardboard and space ? > > So I, thought I would ask you people of experience to play a little game and name what, in your opinion are the top ten worst Library cards (and why) and the top ten worst vamps. > that woud be of help > Thank you > There are so many bad cards in VTES that it would be impossible to make a list of the top ten worst. Crypt : - Appolonius - Any cap 8+ Primogen almost - Any big cap vamp with no bounce option that hasn't got an incredible special Library : I don't even know where to start, but the 4 "Hold" cards are a good start. - Victim of habit ...

the four Hold cards ? what are they ? Actuall this topic was inspired by a series of youtube video about top ten worst cards in MTG, which has a lot more cards than Vtes. don't be shy, just make a top ten of the cards that you feel are absolute Garbage. but it would be cool to be more specific than just any cap 8 primogen : name those bloody idiotic underachievers !

Chiram's Hold, Cold Amber's Hold, Elder Michaelis' Hold, Regarhagan's Hold. I didn't even know about these cards but wow are they useless. They cost you blood or pool, but you use them to return a card from the opponent's ash heap (discard pile) to their hand, and that card costs more to play. And your opponent can jump through some hoops to burn (discard from play) the Hold, but why bother? It costs the player playing the Hold more resources than it costs the opponent, including a deck slot. IDK what the point of these cards was suppose to be... In no particular order: Dirty Little Secrets lets you mill the opponent equal to the amount you bleed them for but that's of dubious value. The Nosferatu have limited ability to check the top cards of their prey's library - so you could snipe key cards, but that's a lot of effort - and you're more likely and better off just trying to bleed them to death, as milling is not a real win condition in VTES. The different gangs in VTES: The Knights, The Bruisers, The Slashers, are all pretty useless. They can't bleed, and have limited ability to intercept, maneuver, dodge, strike, and press, because they don't have any disciplines meaning you would have to rely on very weak and limiting discipline-less cards to give them those effects. Basically, getting them to work is too much effort and too costly - you may as well just play actual vampires. Body of Sun, similar to Body Flare and Mythic Form, is very expensive and it is too easy to miss the opponent. Also, there are more reliable, easier, and cheaper ways of dealing aggravated damage or dealing more damage. Letter From Vienna is specifically to hose the Tremere. Color hosers work in Magic because there are only 5 colors, but playing a hoser for 1 of 22 clans of vampires is probably a bad idea. It was a cool idea and card when there were originally 7 clans but now... not so much. Most of the melee weapons but especially: Bastard Sword, Meat Cleaver, & Brass Knuckles, which are all functional reprints. They all cost 1 pool and give a permanent +1 damage on your strikes, which would be OK except that the exchange rate for guns is much more efficient and lets your vampire be safe. With melee weapons, you're almost always going to be hit back and they don't work at long range. With several guns like the Saturday Night Special, .44 Magnum, Beretta 9mm, & Desert Eagle, the cost to put into play is comparable, they work at long and close range, they do equal or more damage than their melee counterparts, and in some cases give you an optional maneuver. Granted, most Potence cards will make your melee weapons hit harder, but Celerity Guns is an old archetype while Potence Swords isn't... It is very strange that in the RPG melee weapons were generally more effective than guns when fighting vampires, but VTES has this reversed... That's all that come to mind right now. I'm sure I'll think of more later. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

Ow ! I just checked those hold cards : yep ! they seem pretty complex and bad ! Lives by proxy : thanks for your contribution : that post is very helpful because Dirty little secrets dis look appealing to me, as did Letter from Vienna, but your exlanation makes it clear to me why they are bad.

Roughly 6% of all library cards are either banned or serve no truly applicable purpose, be it too niche to ever matter (glass Walker pact, eyes of the dead, becoming of ennoia) or do something strictly worse than another card (there are many blood coating cards in celerity that do nothing pursuit, flash, or blur can't do better, brick laying isn't as good as Arson, New Management, or Unnatural Disaster, all of which also remove a location from another player) There are things that people still play that are straight forward worse cards than others (redirection is strictly worse than deflection, carrion coffin is not as good as homonuclous, but used some times in unison with it, ) but those aren't the stuff of wallpaper like the previous groups. Worth noting: some cards are terrible but carry hefty notoriety, arguably betting you style points if you can use them in a deck and function at ousting. Mythic Form is this. You pay way too much to essentially turn into a dragon, then gain abilities that don't cohesively do much , like shooting agg and preventing non agg damage. But, it's hard to come by due to rarity distribution in the first 2 sets after base sets being wacky. I for example was (I guess still am...) after 1 copy to run in Madness Rachel Brandywine, a deck that blocks and then ends combat and untaps, so obviously playing mythic form on someone expecting earth meld is funny, if impractical. Crypt cards: If it's an 8cap+, and is missing multiact/bounce/special abilities that rock, its probably terrible. Sometimes even with one of these itll suck, Augustus Giovanni, Harrod, Josef VanBuren are arguably the worst 11 caps. Apolonious base version is notorious for looking cool and sucking. Apolonious ADV is deliberately kickass. Several early (jyhad/vtes/AH/FN) vamps weren't costed appropriately for what they had. One was an 11 cap, and she is UNDER costed for what she is. Her name is Arika. Arguably the best brown backed card in the game. (At least shes brought up as most broken) Last year I grave robbed her after a spirit marionette with daring the dawn for an oust. Best oust I made all year....

so sad Appolonius DID look cool.....

In general, the aesthetic of the first set was really spot on for brujah. Other clans were cohesive as well, but the vamp art was very streetpunk and goth, and the border/frame of Brujah and Toreador were great. I mean, malk was solid and gangrel was ok, leaving generally less personality for tremere, ventrue, and nos, but modern frames are more cohesive as a whole. I'm hoping the next base set has cohesive theme to the feel on vamps too. Even subtle things, like malk art having something off or illogical in them. The world has outgrown the gothic punk aesthetic since 94, but luckily, vampires are prone to sticking with "out" styles, so they can keep it going some.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > Chiram's Hold, Cold Amber's Hold, Elder Michaelis' Hold, Regarhagan's Hold. > > I didn't even know about these cards but wow are they useless. They cost you blood or pool, but you use them to return a card from the opponent's ash heap (discard pile) to their hand, and that card costs more to play. > The Holds are pretty bad cards. That's not how they work, though.

> Kushiel wrote: > > > LivesByProxy wrote: > > Chiram's Hold, Cold Amber's Hold, Elder Michaelis' Hold, Regarhagan's Hold. > > > > I didn't even know about these cards but wow are they useless. They cost you blood or pool, but you use them to return a card from the opponent's ash heap (discard pile) to their hand, and that card costs more to play. > > > The Holds are pretty bad cards. That's not how they work, though. > They all take a copy of a card from someone's ash heap, and tax additional copies being played. They all cost blood or pool. They all burn at the price of discarding a copy of the card as discard phase action or 2 pool(that you played to pay the card) or 4 blood(twice what your minion paid, but it can be divided between vamps/actions...) . And again, they all just tax the card by costing extra blood. They are so bad that victim of habit is what they look like as a playable card... and that's not broadly regarded as a playable card........

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > In general, the aesthetic of the first set was really spot on for brujah. Other clans were cohesive as well, but the vamp art was very streetpunk and goth, and the border/frame of Brujah and Toreador were great. I mean, malk was solid and gangrel was ok, leaving generally less personality for tremere, ventrue, and nos, but modern frames are more cohesive as a whole. > I'm hoping the next base set has cohesive theme to the feel on vamps too. Even subtle things, like malk art having something off or illogical in them. > > The world has outgrown the gothic punk aesthetic since 94, but luckily, vampires are prone to sticking with "out" styles, so they can keep it going some. > Ha the frames ! I think the modern layout is more practical, but the backgrounds are often lacking. The classic bed of roses of the Jyhad toreadors cant' be beat, I think the modern toreador background looks like the Blob, the brujah studed leather, how did they replace it wit.... what is it exactly ? blue ? Blue stuff ? and the Malkavians I sort of liked in the sick way the bathroom tiles background, eac malkavian lookes like a twisted reflection in a dirty bathroom mirror. Now who can say that they can read the text on a malkavian textbox ? and what does that green think looks like ? although it's better tha !Malk background with it's puke kaki. I wish that, on some of these camarilla clans we could go back to the old background with the modern layout. But we digress.....

Guard Dury is especially bad because it's very situational, and even when it should work, it doesn't because it grants unnecessary intercept, forbidding you to use it... Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> LivesByProxy wrote: > Most of the melee weapons but especially: Bastard Sword, Meat Cleaver, & Brass Knuckles, which are all functional reprints. They all cost 1 pool and give a permanent +1 damage on your strikes, which would be OK except that the exchange rate for guns is much more efficient and lets your vampire be safe. > I wouldn't discount melee weapons simply because guns are "safer". Sometimes you may want to stack strength (maybe). However in the case of abovementioned cards, strictly better cards exist: baseball bat and nightstick. Both give +1 str for each strike for same cost of 1 pool, but have additional benefits. Baseball bat unlocks the vampire at the end of turn if equipped, nightstick can also prevent damage. Anarch expansion multidiscipline cards are also pretty poor, because unlike more modern anarch cards, those cards can be played only for one discipline each. And each individual discipline usage is weak in comparison to normal non-anarch single discipline cards. Cards like: skullduggery, smash and grab, etc. Finding the path - really? Why would you ever want to play this over common political action cards like kindred resources contested, parity shift, etc? I'm sure I've seen some incredibly poor card designs, but my selective memory has erased them from my mind... If I come across some I will write to this thread. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Mercy for the Weak - simply hilarious. Baron of Frankfurt

Mummify Botched move The 4 hold cards The +intercept only against diablerie I'm sure more will come to my mind Just remember that considering letter from Vienna now is like making a comment of Giant Spider from 4th ed. Mtg Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

well I had some serious doubts about those anarch cards....thanks for confirmig my doubts ... off to the bin, they go ! thank you guys for participating. Your input is actually very helpfull. Giant spider is actually from Alpha beta unlim ... but we see your point, Thelonius,

Pretty cool post... Eyes of the Dead is top one worst card for me... Daniel Abreu VEKN ID - #6010149 "Ab auditione mala non timebit"

> LivesByProxy wrote: > > The different gangs in VTES: The Knights, The Bruisers, The Slashers, are all pretty useless. They can't bleed, and have limited ability to intercept, maneuver, dodge, strike, and press, because they don't have any disciplines meaning you would have to rely on very weak and limiting discipline-less cards to give them those effects. Basically, getting them to work is too much effort and too costly - you may as well just play actual vampires. > I found the gangs useful (alongside Arms Dealers), as extra weenies in a cheap weapons deck. e.g. the staple minion might be a 2-cap vampire playing Saturday Night Special + DBR, which costs 1 pool per fight (even if they dodge). If you splash in some Target Vitals, the gangs can rush too, e.g. The Slashers + Target Vitals only costs 1 pool to deal 9 damage. That's not bad enough for the bottom 10. I'd say most of the Clan hosers, The Treatment, Phobia and Grand Temple of Set would be worse than the gangs. - new user, sorry if this is a double post

> thelonius wrote: > Just remember that considering letter from Vienna now is like making a comment of Giant Spider from 4th ed. Mtg > The comparison with Giant Spider (yes, from Alpha) is a bit strange though. It is a MTG staple card and was reprinted as late as 2017. The bad VTES cards you refer to are simply bad design, presumably not even seriously playtested at all and will never see play. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > and will never see play. > If not getting a rather extensive errata. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > thelonius wrote: > > Just remember that considering letter from Vienna now is like making a comment of Giant Spider from 4th ed. Mtg > > > The comparison with Giant Spider (yes, from Alpha) is a bit strange though. It is a MTG staple card and was reprinted as late as 2017. The bad VTES cards you refer to are simply bad design, presumably not even seriously playtested at all and will never see play. > Giant spider is a LIMITED staple. Reach is valuable in limited. It may be poor in constructed formats, but it is quite playable in limited. We are looking into cards that have no merits to be playable pretty much ever. Magic expansions are designed mostly around limited, while having chase constructed staples as bait to make people buy boosters. Abandoning the flesh ? If this was playable as an action modifier (and thus you could play it when you are getting archoned) it might be playable in a dementation bleed deck. As it is: no go Street cred . Too limited, not important enough effect, costs blood. This card has sparked quite a lot of discussion in my weekly games, since there is one person who likes to play this(mostly in enkidu multirush iirc). Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Your remark about street cred is interresting, because it looks playable, from my beginner's perspective, I only had objections regarding the art. A bad card masquerading as a playable card....hmmm.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > > > Kushiel wrote: > > > > > LivesByProxy wrote: > > > Chiram's Hold, Cold Amber's Hold, Elder Michaelis' Hold, Regarhagan's Hold. > > > > > > I didn't even know about these cards but wow are they useless. They cost you blood or pool, but you use them to return a card from the opponent's ash heap (discard pile) to their hand, and that card costs more to play. > > > > > > > > The Holds are pretty bad cards. That's not how they work, though. > > > They all take a copy of a card from someone's ash heap, and tax additional copies being played. They all cost blood or pool. They all burn at the price of discarding a copy of the card as discard phase action or 2 pool(that you played to pay the card) or 4 blood(twice what your minion paid, but it can be divided between vamps/actions...) . > The bolded part of LBP's post is what I was pointing out as incorrect, which is why I bolded it.

My point on giant spiders was that it was the Only common pretty old card I remembered that moment. Maybe also letter from Vienna has seen some use many years ago, and now is just wasted wood Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

I think a top ten worst cards would be easiest if we broke it down by type. 10 Worst Master Cards 10 Worst Action Cards 10 Worst Action Modifiers 10 Worst Allies 10 Worst Retainers 10 Worst Reactions 10 Worst Events 10 Worst Camarilla Vampires 10 Worst Sabbat Vampires 10 Worst Independent Vampires

> mathusalem wrote: > Your remark about street cred is interresting, because it looks playable, from my beginner's perspective, I only had objections regarding the art. > A bad card masquerading as a playable card....hmmm. > Street Cred is playable - it shows up several times in the TWDA, although only Antti Horelli's 2007 deck (www.vekn.fr/decks/twd.htm#2k7fshelsinki2) runs more than a couple of copies. It's definitely a mediocre card - it's expensive for the effect (compare with Scouting Mission and Enchant Kindred) and rather situational - but not unplayable. -- National Coordinator South Africa

> mathusalem wrote: > Your remark about street cred is interresting, because it looks playable, from my beginner's perspective, I only had objections regarding the art. > A bad card masquerading as a playable card....hmmm. > If you remove any 1 of its setbacks (cost, limit of 1 played, etc) it becomes ok. If it cost 0 and was 1 a round it would be playable. Of course, no cost no restrictions means free pool for hands one and soak.....

> thelonius wrote: > Maybe also letter from Vienna has seen some use many years ago, and now is just wasted wood > In the 90's Letter from Vienna and Malkavian Dementia were actually pretty often used cards. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > In the 90's Letter from Vienna and Malkavian Dementia were actually pretty often used cards. > You'll still find Malkavian Dementia in tournaments.

> kschaefer wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > In the 90's Letter from Vienna and Malkavian Dementia were actually pretty often used cards. > > > You'll still find Malkavian Dementia in tournaments. > Lutz is prevalent, and Derange is a thing. Malkavian Dementia actually comboes with other cards. Letter from Vienna, not so much. On a different note, Regarhagan's Hold doesn't even seem too bad! You could use it with Narrow Minds to make 3 blood Deflections. Guardian Vigil is also played in insane numbers at times. But, then you see the 2 cost, and continue to wallpaper your room with them... All Hold cards, they're reasonable cards with reasonable costs to get rid of, but it's absurd that they cost YOU blood or pool to play them as well. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > On a different note, Regarhagan's Hold doesn't even seem too bad! You could use it with Narrow Minds to make 3 blood Deflections. Guardian Vigil is also played in insane numbers at times. But, then you see the 2 cost, and continue to wallpaper your room with them... > > All Hold cards, they're reasonable cards with reasonable costs to get rid of, but it's absurd that they cost YOU blood or pool to play them as well. > I agree that some of the Hold cards are not terrible. The problem is they're not great, and they also have the added burden of including a novel of text to explain a not so great effect. That's kind of what makes Twisting the Knife the worst card ever: an objectively bad effect with the added burden of lots of card text to explain the effect.

> I agree that some of the Hold cards are not terrible. The problem is they're not great, and they also have the added burden of including a novel of text to explain a not so great effect. That's kind of what makes Twisting the Knife the worst card ever: an objectively bad effect with the added burden of lots of card text to explain the effect. > The wall of text is a hindrance to players, that's for sure. The cumbersome wording doesn't make those cards marginal however. The cards are actually terrible - not for their effect, but for their cost. Their use is already limited, and have a limited window where they can be played. Those things (and taking a card slot) in conjunction with an actual resource cost make them unbearably useless. If their opportunity costs (make Regarhagan trifle for example) and and costs would be removed, one or two of them might possibly maybe dunno see some play in tandem with other hose cards. But it's unlikely even then. But hey, at least I'll have plenty to read when I cover my walls with Holds! Always look on the bright side. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

The hold cards reminded me of junk versions of cards like mind of a child, seeds of corruption, prison of the mind, condemnation cards, blood of sandman, etc. The primary drawback of the Dementation cards mentioned is huge cost for a discipline not really used for hampering one minion. Seeds was used, albeit with much debate over what it removed, and the condemnation cards aren't all on the same level, since if Baali are voting, Mute is enormous while if baali are fighting languid is barely noticeable. Blood of Sandman is of course 6 freaking stealth to nullify all wake effects on one vamp, so can be quite humorous (albeit not to the vampires owner) when someone taps their justicar so Saulot can't spirit marionette them, and then BoS on them. Holds just aren't as good. What you have to put up to play them erodes utility.

> Kraus wrote: > If their opportunity costs (make Regarhagan trifle for example) and and costs would be removed, one or two of them might possibly maybe dunno see some play in tandem with other hose cards. But it's unlikely even then. > Regarhagan may not be terrible, especially in combination with Narrow Minds. 3 blood to play Deflection is steep...although it does cost a master phase action, master slot, and 2 pool, plus the discard phase action and delayed replacement from Narrow minds... You know what? Nevermind. They all are unplayable.

> mathusalem wrote: > so sad Appolonius DID look cool..... > I agree, Appolonious looks amazing I will still use him in my decks though

Never seen a single Hold being played... Yup, Malkavian Dementia, especially with Derange had occasionally popped up. I remember the one Otso played at Ropecon some years ago. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > Never seen a single Hold being played... > > Yup, Malkavian Dementia, especially with Derange had occasionally popped up. I remember the one Otso played at Ropecon some years ago. > If I remember right, his deck was call advanced derange and dementia (or AD&D) . As an enormous malk fan, I try to remember TWD entries with them that aren't just stealth bleed. Aside from that combo, imagine how much of a dick move it would be if like 1 guy In a casual playgroup always played fatty malkavians, and everyone else ran dementia. With no pool cost it's not a bad card. Just really niche.

Well, wasn't that the original intent of the clan hosers? To be able to punish someone who basically always played that same deck... Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > Well, wasn't that the original intent of the clan hosers? > To be able to punish someone who basically always played that same deck... > Yes. Yes it was. Of course, Sect hosers would be more optimal now, but back then it probably seemed logical that people would play clan hosers

they're (clan hosers) a bit of a dick move tbh. they only really affect playgroups that dont have access to a lot of variety. The only way to get your playgroup to stop bothering with them is to play different decks. Basically a -'buy more cards - card'

> narpassword wrote: > they're (clan hosers) a bit of a dick move tbh. > > they only really affect playgroups that dont have access to a lot of variety. The only way to get your playgroup to stop bothering with them is to play different decks. > > Basically a -'buy more cards - card' > Hosers in general are a lame and unfun type of cards. I am definitely against printing any kind of good sect hosers.. Its a better idea to give players exciting cards that let them do cool stuff proactively, instead of cards that are intended to make other players miserable. Magic the gathering moved away from generic colorhosers (karma, lifeblood) long time ago, and the only hosers that are printed nowadays are meant to keep powerful synergies or combos from getting out of hand(cards like stony silence, eidolon of rhetoric or thalia, guardian of thraben). Also this card is pretty bad... Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

It is a bad card. In fact, any time the best use for a master card is for Aksynia to bounce, it probably shouldn't go in a deck (Glass Walker Pact, I'm looking at you...)

Atavism is indeed not that hot a card. But the the Gangrel requirement is a typo. Finnish Politics!

Before I get into the worst I am going to defend some of these claims of worst. Harrod is not a bad vampire. Any vampire with 4 votes and 3 bleed (less need for vote push and bleed cards) who can stealth and defend with intercept combat is NOT BAD. Tired of people forgetting about intercepting, it's always "multiact/bounce/special abilities that rock". Now he has means of multi-acting (Flurry of Action, Warsaw Station) and can vote push plus access to better ways of intercepting, he is definitely nowhere near a bad card/vampire. The original Independent 11 caps (especially Sutekh who had none of those criteria though he can expensively multi-act now) were worse and Gwendolyn who has even less TWD's but at least she could multi-act, right!?! I cannot defend Apollonius very well but at least he had +bleed, a good combat special and was one of the few cel/pot/for vamps available. Had a fun retro deck in which he was a useful inclusion. Too bad he was titled, could've been a decent anarch (and should've been an 8 cap). But he came from the same set that included: Dr. Jest (one of my favorite artworks) overcosted with a meh special (who was overshadowed by J. Oswald Ozzy Hyde-White with the same disciplines, 2 more superior, same title and a useful special) and also would have made an even better anarch. Sebastian Marlowe (another great piece of art) who could never find a good place in a deck. Sylvester Simms whose special hurt you as well and was also overcosted. Miranda Sanova, not much to say about her (though she looked like my ex). Plus Zack North and Quinton McDonnell (who could multi-act and do nothing worrisome). I'd take Apollonius over the others, though I wish he didn't look like Axel Rose. Don't understand how anybody thinks Redirection is a bad card. Guardian Angel has a heavy price but usually pays out in my experience, he did mean that and not Vigil, correct? Tired of typing so I'll get into more bad ones later.

> Ankha wrote: > Guard Dury is especially bad because it's very situational, and even when it should work, it doesn't because it grants unnecessary intercept, forbidding you to use it... > Ugh. Guard Duty is terrible because it's so situational, but preventing the effect on 0-stealth actions because it lacks "even it not yet needed" indicates errata for clarity is merited instead of completely wallpapering it by ruling. If we're going to be that specific in terminology, lets apply that process to this too.... Weighted Walking Stick Type: Combat Only usable before range is determined on the first round. Put this card on this minion and put 5 counters on this card. While in play, this card represents a melee weapon (equipment) that does strength+1 damage each strike. For each point of damage inflicted by this strike (even if prevented), remove a counter from this card. Burn this card when it has no counters. A minion can have only one Weighted Walking Stick. Since it's "only usable before range is determined on the first round", the card can never be "used" to declare a strike for strength +1 damage after it is attached to a minion.

Goodnight, Sweet Prince (cost: 2 pool, requires: Ravnos) Only usable if you control an unlocked Ravnos. Lock one of your Ravnos. Burn the top card of the crypt of any Methuselah. If the card burned is a prince, gain 2 pool.

Good catch. For the low, low cost of 2 pool, a MPA and tapping a vampire, you can have absolutely 0 impact on the game. But hey, once every blue moon, it does not cost you pool!

> Non-existant user wrote: > Good catch. For the low, low cost of 2 pool, a MPA and tapping a vampire, you can have absolutely 0 impact on the game. But hey, once every blue moon, it does not cost you pool! > I can think of one use for this, and that would be with Possession. Even then, the odds are slim of you having a Prince, and there are easier ways to go about it.

Worst lists are, to me, more about the humor of how bad cards can be in CCGs. If looking for cards to avoid, seems like more interested in cards that sound better than they are rather than cards that are hardly ever or never played (of which there are a lot). Cards like Elder Library, Visit from the Capuchin, Crocodile's Tongue are cards I consider that sound like they provide more than they do. The first two because of how the draw mechanic works in the game and how the play of a card alters the hand, the latter because I find that my opponents like to block with 10 caps, also being successful at actions is something I prefer over annoying attempts to block, which is where I prefer stealth or block denial. I could bring up most offensive cards (mechanicswise), but that's a different topic and I'm thinking I wouldn't even get to 10 before my outrage would abate. Traveller Card Game

Crocodile's Tongue is pretty decent on an Aching Beauty deck: You opponent already payed 1-2 pool to block you, so now they will pay 2 extra blood, justy for you to finally play change of target and do something else.

> Ratadin wrote: > Crocodile's Tongue is pretty decent on an Aching Beauty deck: You opponent already payed 1-2 pool to block you, so now they will pay 2 extra blood, justy for you to finally play change of target and do something else. > Is that a legal play? Aching Beauty triggers when an action is blocked, Croc can be played when a minion attempts to block.

> Snodig wrote: > > > Ratadin wrote: > > Crocodile's Tongue is pretty decent on an Aching Beauty deck: You opponent already payed 1-2 pool to block you, so now they will pay 2 extra blood, justy for you to finally play change of target and do something else. > > > Is that a legal play? > Aching Beauty triggers when an action is blocked, Croc can be played when a minion attempts to block. > Aching Beauty Master [Toreador] Toreador [2 Pool] Master. Put this card on a Toreador. If this Toreador is blocked, the controller of the blocking minion burns 1 pool (before combat occurs, if any) Change of Target [Action Modifier] Action Modifier Only usable when this acting minion is blocked (play before combat, if any). Untap the acting minion, do not tap the blocking minion, and end the current action (it is not successful). This minion cannot perform the same action again this turn. So, I'm bleeding. You attempt to block. I play crocs tongue. You burn blood. I'm blocked. Damn. You burn a pool for each aching beauty. I change of target. I untap, you're not tapped, and I'm probably about to call KRC. Toreador can be annoying.

Your ordering is correct. Ratadin's was not, which, I think, is what was called into question.

Yeah, you are right, although thanks to this exchange I some corrections to do the next time I play with my friend...

> cordovader wrote: > Crypt : > - Appolonius > ... > Heretic IC Organized play coordinator Please contact me with any OP query using the mail in my profile

There are just so many bad cards. The cost of cards is seemingly random, cards doing the same or similar thing better exist, or the card supports a strategy that the game at large does not. The vast majority of vampires over 7 capacity fall into the fun category along with entire disciplines.

I think there would be more debate over a "20 almost good" thread. I'll start one when I think up 10 vamps and 10 library cards that are almost in a tier of either playable or very playable. But still not really playable.