This came up during idle chatter before game last night, we disagreed on interpretation so might as well clear it up.
Prejudice
Nagaraja
Capacity: 4
Group: 4
Independent: Once each action, Prejudice may remove an ally or retainer in your prey's ash heap from the game to get +2 bleed for the current action. Scarce.
Does Prejudice's special apply only to his own bleeds, or can he use it during some other minion's bleed?
I.e. is the following legal?
- minion A bleeds
- Prejudice removes ally/retainer from ash to give minion A's action +2 bleed
"To get" seems to me that he himself gets it. "To give" or some other wording should be used otherwise.
...right?
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
> Kraus wrote:
> "To get" seems to me that he himself gets it. "To give" or some other wording should be used otherwise.
>
> ...right?
>
Yes. He GETS the +2 bleed
Otherwise the wording would have been "give any minion"
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
> thelonius wrote:
>
> > Kraus wrote:
> > "To get" seems to me that he himself gets it. "To give" or some other wording should be used otherwise.
> >
> > ...right?
> >
> Yes. He GETS the +2 bleed
> Otherwise the wording would have been "give any minion"
>
Correct.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Prejudice can use their special during any action (including non-bleed actions) performed by any minion, correct? The +bleed that Prejudice gets as a result is wasted unless they are the one who is attempting a bleed, but you could use the ability to remove allies/retainers from your prey's ash heap.
> Kushiel wrote:
> Prejudice can use their special during any action (including non-bleed actions) performed by any minion, correct? The +bleed that Prejudice gets as a result is wasted unless they are the one who is attempting a bleed, but you could use the ability to remove allies/retainers from your prey's ash heap.
>
No, you can use it only during bleed actions performed by him.
You can't play vote push during a hunt, either
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
The wording says that he gets +2 bleed, so no other minions for sure.
It says also that he gets +2 bleed for the current action.
As far as I can remember you can't get temporary bonus in a non pertinent action, thus my interpretation.
If he is bleeding he can get the +2 bleed. If anyone else is bleeding he can't.
And for sure, nobody else can get the bonus except him.
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
> thelonius wrote:
> As far as I can remember you can't get temporary bonus in a non pertinent action, thus my interpretation.
>
I am sure that such a rule exists, since otherwise we would be cycling bleed modifiers like mad on non-bleed actions, but I cannot find this rule from the rulebook. (I'm not surprised by this at all. I've been complaining about how many things are missing from rulebook for ages)
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> thelonius wrote:
> You can't play vote push during a hunt, either
>
Not a great counterexample, since all vote push cards contain the text "Only usable during a referendum."
More to the point, though, whatever rule exists about only playing action modifiers that modify the amount of a bleed during a bleed action doesn't necessarily apply here - Prejudice's ability isn't an action modifier being played.
> Lönkka wrote:
> Ankha just gave the official ruling on this exact same question in the previous page...
>
The previous page of this thread? Ankha's only post on that page clarifies which minion gets the bleed bonus, but not the circumstances of when it can be activated.
Also, I'm curious about the rule regarding playing bleed modifier action modifier cards during non-bleed actions - I also couldn't find anything about this in the rulebook or via Google.
> Kushiel wrote:
> Also, I'm curious about the rule regarding playing bleed modifier action modifier cards during non-bleed actions - I also couldn't find anything about this in the rulebook or via Google.
>
The places I know it's mentioned are in the Lasombra's VtES FAQ (which really should be revived and hosted somewhere offical)
>
> VTES wrote:
> 3.6. Can Bonding be played on a non-bleed action?
> No. You may not play superior Bonding on a non-bleed action just to get the stealth. In general, you may only play action modifiers which are appropriate to the action.
>
and in the general play summary
>
> Play wrote:
> Only action modifiers appropriate to the action may be played. e.g., you may not use a +1 bleed effect on a non-bleed action. [RTR]
>
I haven't been able to find the original ruling - the oldest clear statement I've found is LSJ in this post from 1998, but that thread cites the ruling as already existing.
It's not mentioned in the rulebook (which it really should be), nor, as far as I can see, in any of the ruling lists.
--
National Coordinator
South Africa
> drnlmza wrote:
> I haven't been able to find the original ruling - the oldest clear statement I've found is LSJ in this post from 1998, but that thread cites the ruling as already existing.
>
This appears to be the earliest source:
From: (Tom Wylie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.deckmaster
Subject: NEW: Rulings summary for Jyhad
Date: 9 Nov 1994 13:11:24 -0800
Bonding:
The superior version cannot be used to increase the stealth of a
non-bleed action; action modifiers which modify/replace bleed may
only be used on bleed actions.
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.deckmaster/_6CXoKTSLnw/FdG67-3HEAQJ
Thanks for finding those, folks.
Since we're currently in the era in which it's relatively easy to errata cards, would it make sense to add some kind of text to bleed mods cards, since the rule isn't in the rulebook? Or add something concrete to the rulebook? I mentioned this on Facebook, but "appropriate to the action" is awfully loose for a rule.
> Kushiel wrote:
> Since we're currently in the era in which it's relatively easy to errata cards, would it make sense to add some kind of text to bleed mods cards, since the rule isn't in the rulebook? Or add something concrete to the rulebook? I mentioned this on Facebook, but "appropriate to the action" is awfully loose for a rule.
>
There aren't really that many situations where it can happen, and the general principle of not being able to modify something that isn't there has been applied in a variety of rulings over time. The main situations historically are:
- bleed on a non-bleed action (doesn't work, and can't be voluntarily applied)
- damage on a non-damaging strike (doesn't work, and can't be voluntarily applied)
I guess in theory now we have "+X hunt" as a keyword, a very brief card text might allow for "+1 hunt" but for card space reasons might not allow for lots of card text explaining exactly when it's playable (e.g. if it was a level on a crowded Anarch three-way), which would implicitly work much the same way.
Action modifiers cards that increase the bleed can't be played on non-bleed actions because their cardtexts forbid it.
Action modifiers cards that give votes can't be played on non-political actions because their cardtexts forbid it.
Action modifiers cards and other effects (e.g., Backways) that increase the stealth can't be played or used when not necessary because the rulebook forbids it.
Reaction cards that increase the intercept (e.g. KRCG News Radio) can't be played or used when not necessary because the rulebook forbids it.
There is probably a loophole here because increasing the bleed on a non-bleed action is not covered by the rules nor the cardtexts for other sources (e.g., Anu Diptinatpa, or Prejudice).
I believe it makes more sense to forbid it, rather than allowing it.
The only vampire for which it makes sense is Andre Leroux because his +2 bleed bonus lasts for the whole turn, and it is designed to work so.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > drnlmza wrote:
> > I haven't been able to find the original ruling - the oldest clear statement I've found is LSJ in this post from 1998, but that thread cites the ruling as already existing.
> >
> This appears to be the earliest source:
>
> From: (Tom Wylie)
> Newsgroups: rec.games.deckmaster
> Subject: NEW: Rulings summary for Jyhad
> Date: 9 Nov 1994 13:11:24 -0800
>
> Bonding:
> The superior version cannot be used to increase the stealth of a
> non-bleed action; action modifiers which modify/replace bleed may
> only be used on bleed actions.
>
> groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.deckmaster/_6CXoKTSLnw/FdG67-3HEAQJ
>
Also:
> Jyhad / V:tES Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
>
> Version 1.985
>
> 3.6. Can Bonding be played on a non-bleed action?
> No. You may not play superior Bonding on a non-bleed action
> just to get the stealth. In general, you may only play action
> modifiers which are appropriate to the action.
>
Which is pretty vague.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Action modifiers cards that increase the bleed can't be played on non-bleed actions because their cardtexts forbid it.
>
"Their card texts forbid it"? I'm not so sure about that...
There are some where it is explicitly denied like Confusion, but there are also lots of bleed modifiers that mention nothing about the action they are played on. Conditioning for example. Usually simply stating "+X bleed", or "this action is at +X bleed". I imagine many of these cards were worded on the assumption that such a rule exists, yet it is not stated in the rulebook.
Vote push modifiers seem to usually have the text "only usable during referendum" etc, though. Same cannot be said for bleed modifiers.
This rule should be in the rulebook.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
Sorta off-topic, a funny thing I noticed about the wording of Ophidian Gaze at . It says "Only usable during a political action after blocks are declined", a phrase often used in bleeds. At first I thought it might be the same thing as "During a referendum of a political action", which would be more consistent overall, but is this to clarify you could use Gaze to cancel Freak Drive or Voter Captivation?
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
> Kraus wrote:
> Sorta off-topic, a funny thing I noticed about the wording of Ophidian Gaze at . It says "Only usable during a political action after blocks are declined", a phrase often used in bleeds. At first I thought it might be the same thing as "During a referendum of a political action", which would be more consistent overall, but is this to clarify you could use Gaze to cancel Freak Drive or Voter Captivation?
>
I would've used it to cancel freak or voter cap already, without asking anybody, since thats how the wording works, unless it has received errata. Doesn't work on change of target (or more importantly stealth) however since its "after blocks are declined"...
Incidentally, this card was possibly going to my deck today... Canceling voter cap is non-trivial..
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
I've ran Denial of Aphrodites favor in my Gotsdam decks for this, and Touch of Clarity in more toolbox malk stuff. Voter cap is a significant barrier to attrition...