First new products are available!

"We are very happy to announce that Black Chantry Productions now has made their first three Vampire: The Eternal Struggle products available for print on demand on Drivethrucards.com. It is one brand new expansion, designed by the VEKN Design team, illustrated by top notch artists and carefully tested by hundreds of playtesters for more than one year. The other two products are reprint bundles of Keepers of Tradition cards that are highly desired by players who could not get their hands on enough of them back when they were originally printed. Congratulations VTES players all over the world - our beloved game is back in print!" Read the full annoucement here: www.vekn.net/2-uncategorised/396-first-new-products-are-available "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Woohoo !! And new vampires with the KoT bundles (1 and 2) Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

Brilliant. Is there a card list available for the new set, or a pdf preview?

Vidal Jarbeaux is smissing. I checked the list of the two bundle twice. And the toreador crypt card "Vidal Jarbeaux" is missing. Did someone know if was a mistype or indeed it will really be out of the reprint? Priest of Rio de Janeiro My blog: Portal Distant Kingdoms Facebook: Distant Kingdoms Youtube: Distant Shore

> DeathInABottle wrote: > Brilliant. Is there a card list available for the new set, or a pdf preview? > Well.... errm.... > Ashur wrote: > Read the full annoucement here: > www.vekn.net/2-uncategorised/396-first-new-products-are-available > "It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality" --- Hardy Range Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager

My guess is that his special text is so poorly worded they don't want to reprint him until they know how to handle it.

Besides "Vidal Jarbeaux" is missing from the reprint card list. I have other question. I Already made the purchase of the 3 sets on DrivethruRPG. But I get curious about the "Print Format: Premium Euro Poker Card(s)" status. So would all set be printed based on individual purchases? If so, what about possible discrepancies between individual prints? How handle this in tournament? I never purchased P.O.D card games, so I new with this. Priest of Rio de Janeiro My blog: Portal Distant Kingdoms Facebook: Distant Kingdoms Youtube: Distant Shore

> hardyrange wrote: > > > DeathInABottle wrote: > > Brilliant. Is there a card list available for the new set, or a pdf preview? > > > Well.... errm.... > > > Ashur wrote: > > Read the full annoucement here: > > www.vekn.net/2-uncategorised/396-first-new-products-are-available > > There's a single card previewed there. I'm asking about a complete list.

Placed my first order earlier this afternoon, with more to come when the HttB bundles come out and my wallet recovers a bit from the double expense of this plus the V5 pre-order. Feels good, man. Besides my excitement for just having the game back, I also want to add that like the format Black Chantry decided on with the bundle format. Now get those older pdf expansions available for print already, would'ya, chop chop!

Hm... I just noted the stiff shipping prices DrivethruCards list on their page: A 120-card deck to Germany would incur a shipping fee that is the same amount of money again as the set itself costs. Does anyone (especially from Europe, of course) have experience on how DrivethruCards does shipping (and pricing thereof) when you order larger amounts of sets (say, a combined order done by my playgroup)? Would that bring shipping fees down to a reasonable value? Any helpful input is of course appreciated. "It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality" --- Hardy Range Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager

> Does anyone (especially from Europe, of course) have experience on how DrivethruCards does shipping (and pricing thereof) when you order larger amounts of sets (say, a combined order done by my playgroup). Would that bring shipping fees down to a reasonable value? > The more you buy, the lower the price per bundle (incl. shipping). You can tinker with amounts & shipping prices before your actually purchase. -1 Strength

> KzArashi wrote: > Vidal Jarbeaux is smissing. > I checked the list of the two bundle twice. And the toreador crypt card "Vidal Jarbeaux" is missing. > Did someone know if was a mistype or indeed it will really be out of the reprint? > > kschaefer wrote: > My guess is that his special text is so poorly worded they don't want to reprint him until they know how to handle it. > Correct. We'll reprint it later with a clearer wording. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> KzArashi wrote: > I Already made the purchase of the 3 sets on DrivethruRPG. But I get curious about the "Print Format: Premium Euro Poker Card(s)" status. > So would all set be printed based on individual purchases? > If so, what about possible discrepancies between individual prints? How handle this in tournament? > Premium Euro Poker Card(s) is the only format the cards are available in, so everyone will have the same product. > hardyrange wrote: > Hm... > > I just noted the stiff shipping prices DrivethruCards list on their page: > > A 120-card deck to Germany would incur a shipping fee that is the same amount of money again as the set itself costs. > > Does anyone (especially from Europe, of course) have experience on how DrivethruCards does shipping (and pricing thereof) when you order larger amounts of sets (say, a combined order done by my playgroup)? > Would that bring shipping fees down to a reasonable value? > > Any helpful input is of course appreciated. > I'd pay $15 shipping for France for 1 product, and $58.25 for 10 products, so you'd better group orders with other players. (You can add products to your cart and see how the shipping fees increase). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Twelve years ago I set up my first deck, which was the . And I use them to this day. It replaces the by the and mixed with anarchs. It was good, and from the few tournaments that I managed to participate with them I had the pleasure of winning 2. It really saddens me not to see anything regarding the clan. I used to accompany Vekn's website every day, thinking about which cards could make the difference on my favorite deck. Apparently I'll have to wait longer than you know how many years to do something else with the deck.

> Eduardo wrote: > Twelve years ago I set up my first deck, which was the . And I use them to this day. It replaces the by the and mixed with anarchs. It was good, and from the few tournaments that I managed to participate with them I had the pleasure of winning 2. It really saddens me not to see anything regarding the clan. I used to accompany Vekn's website every day, thinking about which cards could make the difference on my favorite deck. Apparently I'll have to wait longer than you know how many years to do something else with the deck. > I'm sure this is a wild idea, but have you considered making another deck? Because you're going to be disappointed if you're expecting new Ahrimanes cards with every set. Even then with these re-releases, we're getting the stuff enough players missed on the first go around, which will hopefully fund further printings (also likely including some Ahrimanes stuff eventually). After that, we'll hopefully see more print on demand singles.

I certainly have other decks, and I do not disagree with the new release, but I figured something more complete would be released. Obviously I do not think only of a deck, but I would just like to be able to express myself (if that is not too uncomfortable). In the end, I would like to congratulate the coordinators of the game and especially the artists of the images, who really are of impeccable quality.

Thank you to all who made this possible! I have a few questions: 1. One of my employees has been asking me if there will be a booth with product available at origins. I'm not sure why, since he hasn't seemed interested much before, but he used to Play Rage, and I guess may want stuff for a game that's in print. 2. I'm assuming there will be different purchase options available later, but are there plans to distribute other vekn expansions as a set like list kindred? 3. If the answer to 2 is yes, can we get relevant reprints cut I to those sets? So like Abbot, CVS, arms of the abyss, horrid form in DM, deep song, dog pack, sense dep, preturnatural strength, eternals of serious, draught the soul in TU, convert, diversion, chameleon, some fee stakes, monkey wrench, teilightcamp, cry wolf, PB LA in AU? Most of these I mention because they fit and help players have what they need to build strong decks with what's already in a set, as well as lower the bar for new players acquiring things. Of course once a "you pick the cardz" system goes live, I can stop tearing apart even somewhat good decks forever and just spend $15 a deck to print what I'd need to harvest (based on $25 +$4shipping for 120 cards)

> Eduardo wrote: > I certainly have other decks, and I do not disagree with the new release, but I figured something more complete would be released. > There are roughly five and a half sects, 28 disciplines plus three semi-not-disciplines (Flight, Maleficia, Striga), and 37.5 clans (counting City and Country !Gan as 1.5). Given that the game has previously been produced by larger, well-funded companies and has never put out something even remotely close to complete, why would it do so this time?

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > Given that the game has previously been produced by larger, well-funded companies and has never put out something even remotely close to complete, why would it do so this time? > wishful thinking?

What is needed for "complete " ? When we were last in print, KoT sold out before expected, its available again, minus one "meh" combo vamp and plus two unknown vamps. Staples for most decks are cheap(govern $.75/card, taste of vitae $.50/card, kindred spirits ~$.17/card) and freak drive is the only $5and up staple you typically need 8ish of that isn't super cheap or reprinted in the KoT bundle and or the anthology (eyes of argus, deep song...) If someone wants a truly complete set of drive thru cards made reprints, I'm sure an option will exist. For now, it took a very short time to go from: "5 renowned players from 5 countries just made a company and we are on the cusp of back in print" to "ta-da! Here's 3 links, we are back in print " I'm personally happy with what's here. The only thing better would be a "new set plus" bundle with some padding cards to make people who didn't already have swoop and as the crow be able to make decks. I have those cards, because I live in a fantasy world where gargoyles don't suck. But you get the idea. But if they reprinted staples without new art, I'd be confused, especially with a new edition and v5 tie in on the horizon.

(I asked this same question at Drivethrucards. Sorry for being impatient!) What is the size of this "Plastic Deckbox" ? Can it hold sleeved cards? Or is it roughly the same size as the old starter boxes? (Except that it is made of plastic instead of paper.)

> BogusMagus wrote: > > What is the size of this "Plastic Deckbox" ? > Can it hold sleeved cards? > Or is it roughly the same size as the old starter boxes? > (Except that it is made of plastic instead of paper.) > If I am not mistaken, this is the deckbox: www.drivethrucards.com/product/114070/ V:EKN Website Coordinator

Oh, I see. Thank you, Damnans!

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Staples for most decks are cheap(govern $.75/card, taste of vitae $.50/card, kindred spirits ~$.17/card) and freak drive is the only $5and up staple you typically need 8ish of that isn't super cheap or reprinted in the KoT bundle and or the anthology (eyes of argus, deep song...) > Villein, the embrace, parity shift... Prince of Ghent find us at www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/

> squirrel wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > Staples for most decks are cheap(govern $.75/card, taste of vitae $.50/card, kindred spirits ~$.17/card) and freak drive is the only $5and up staple you typically need 8ish of that isn't super cheap or reprinted in the KoT bundle and or the anthology (eyes of argus, deep song...) > > > Villein, the embrace, parity shift... > Well, there are 2 Villeins in each KoT bundle.

Also, parity shift is in the relative same price range as freak drive, and its staple for prince decks, but rarely ran in quantities identical to govern. Or freak drive quite often. Embrace, that runs high, but I'd argue it's as niche to use well as third tradition. Which is substantially cheaper.

Also, if you really want to play breed decks, Tumnimos is just as good as Embrace in a dedicated deck. You basically need Embrace only for clans that don't have a baby-creator of their own. And you really want to breed, you want the breed archetype, not a specific clan, right? Parity Shift is the only Camarilla voter 'staple' that you can't replicate with something else. And you don't really need more than, like 3-4. Extra might help depending on your deck, but even 2 gets you started. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Is there any possibility on news about getting boosters in near future. I tried to read up on that, but did not find any solid info. Although sealed products are nice, I am looking to getting boosters more. czechvtes.blogspot.com/

> Cat_in_Exile wrote: > Well, there are 2 Villeins in each KoT bundle. > But the bundle itself doesn't seem to be very cheap due to mailing costs... But this is a start! Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Cat_in_Exile wrote: > > Well, there are 2 Villeins in each KoT bundle. > > > But the bundle itself doesn't seem to be very cheap due to mailing costs... > > But this is a start! > It's cheaper than the anthology sets were to get shipped to the 'states, but anybody coming to origins could possibly ask US players about shipping to them to get the $4 per set shipping.

> Silmegil wrote: > Is there any possibility on news about getting boosters in near future. I tried to read up on that, but did not find any solid info. Although sealed products are nice, I am looking to getting boosters more. > AFAIK no boosters, in any case or time Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

Thanks for quick response. Sad news for me though. I was looking forward to boosters most. So no purchases for me if they are not coming czechvtes.blogspot.com/

> Silmegil wrote: > Thanks for quick response. Sad news for me though. I was looking forward to boosters most. So no purchases for me if they are not coming > May I inquire why you are looking forward to boosters so much? Draft? Fixed contents (living card game model) is a vastly superior way of acquiring cards if your intention is to play with them. It costs much less and you are guaranteed to get the cards that you need. If its draft you want, you can do a cube-draft. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Well I'm glad to at last be able to play with Gwendolyn Fleming, it was so frustrating to see her on the deck boxes but being left out of KOT. I'm very curious about the content of the Heir to the Blood bundles. I'm quite pleased and eager to receive the cards. I'm also impatient to see the pdf sets being printed

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Silmegil wrote: > > Thanks for quick response. Sad news for me though. I was looking forward to boosters most. So no purchases for me if they are not coming > > > May I inquire why you are looking forward to boosters so much? Draft? > > Fixed contents (living card game model) is a vastly superior way of acquiring cards if your intention is to play with them. It costs much less and you are guaranteed to get the cards that you need. > > If its draft you want, you can do a cube-draft. > From my personal view, I love boosters. I do not gamble IRL in any shape or point, no scratchies, betting or lottery, so boosters are my fix. True that I love drafts so much, that cube could be my fix, but for me its not the same - again, my personal feeling. The othe thing is, I tried some LCGs and if we go from completionist view, you certainly have better deals in LCG - saying you want to have playset of them all. But I have met people in AGOT LCG, that wanted to play Stark only - trading or splitting expanses does not work that much because you rarely find people who are willing to split LCG boxes fairly and also you have neutral cards. So for me in both types of games, it ended with buying from resellers on ebay. Lastly this might prove problematic with V:tes, since there is no playset cap. So say I wanna build Una deck with 50 Freak drives, how many PCD will I have to buy? How will you set up boxes for that? Without changing basic principles of the game. I could come to terms with this if I knew what the long term strategy is, but at this point I wont invest as a player, because I am not confident that this will work properly. I will keep playing with my own decks for a while and see how it goes. czechvtes.blogspot.com/

Fantasiapelit is looking to find a way to get the Bundles to Finland in a cheap manner. But it looks like it'll be July before something regarding this might be actualizing (could be later if things don't progress smoothly),.. :/ Finnish Politics!

For my view of VtES boosters is preferable - you need multiples of cards both for one deck, and to make several decks ready without moving cards around. In LCG model it leads to buying bunch of multiple boxes of useless crap for several copies of a one needed card. There are, as I see, rarity problems, thou. "Basic sets" of 100/100/100/100 R/U/C/V in 5C, 3V, 2U, 1R boosters are not "working" - too much variety. Mini-sets of 20/20/20 R/V/C in 7C, 3V, 1R boosters (like twilight rebellion) are quite fine, if your also fix rarity issues (for TR it should be, for example, moving Chameleon, Shattering and Piper to commons, Zip Line, Power of All and Revolutionary Council to rares). Actually, best one for me are not boosters - never seen anybody buying 1 booster of VtES, but something like old starters, but with fixed variety. For example "Toreador-Brujah starter" with 8R 24V 56C randomly chosen from 20/20/20 R/V/C set of relevant for this clans cards. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > For my view of VtES boosters is preferable - you need multiples of cards both for one deck, and to make several decks ready without moving cards around. In LCG model it leads to buying bunch of multiple boxes of useless crap for several copies of a one needed card. > "Buying a bunch of boxes of useless crap"? You just described boosters, lol With the exception that buying boosters you are not guaranteed to get the cards you want. I remember when I once bought an entire display box of MtG alliances boosters and only got two UNCOMMONs that I wanted, let alone any rares. That put me away of buying boosters for the rest of my life. I now buy only singles that I need off second-hand dealers. Or I buy fixed content boxes that utilize the LcG model since I know exactly what I'm getting. Its still WAY cheaper than actually trying to open specific rares out of boosters. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > I bought an entire booster box of alliances and only got two UNCOMMONs that I wanted out of it. > I bought like 4 boxes of third edition and got 0 pentex subversion's That's why I'm saying, that set's size and rarity should also be changed for random distribution model to work. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > Bloodartist wrote: > > I bought an entire booster box of alliances and only got two UNCOMMONs that I wanted out of it. > > > I bought like 4 boxes of third edition and got 0 pentex subversion's > > That's why I'm saying, that set's size and rarity should also be changed for random distribution model to work. > If it were a LCG model, you'd get 4. Seriously, I can't really think of any reasonable argument for random boosters besides personal preference. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > If it were a LCG model, you'd get 4. > If it were LCG, I would not care about PS The goal is not to get cardboard, the goal is to have fun. Randomness is fun, fixed distribution - not so much. There are "LCG subset" of VtES - starters. Haven't seen anybody being excited about starters (except HTTB ones for Villeins, again because it was printed previously with wrong rarity in random expansion). Random starters (with two "related" clans and relevant for them pool of cards) can be playable as is - it will make "escalating league" (starting with one starter, than gradually adding additionals) approachable way of a new players to enter the game as well as being new way of having fun for bored old ones. Secondary market also got it's merits. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > Randomness is fun > And thats were we must agree to disagree. Spending money for nothing is not fun in my books. I've partaken magic limited tournaments where I dumped all the cards I got into the trash bin on my way to the exit. I no longer play limited, except the odd pre-release here and there. You can achieve all the positive elements of limited and random distribution by creating a cube draft, WITHOUT having to pay any extra. For me, fun is in building decks, and then playing them to see my plans come to fruition. Also instilling flavor and fluff into my deckbuilding whenever possible. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Our playgroup has always held pre-constructed decks in high regard, as far as I can remember. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Bloodartist wrote: > I've partaken magic limited tournaments where I dumped all the cards I got into the trash bin on my way to the exit. > You are mixing your frustration with MTG with completely different game. In MTG most non rare cards are total crap outside of limited, in VtES most commons are(should be) useful in any quantities if you are building several decks. There are no comparison. NC Russia

> Brum wrote: > Since Lords of the Night there has been much hype for the starters, so far that the spoiling of them was an event in of itself. > I remember the online topics and blog posts regarding them. > Fun days. > You are actually supporting my point - there was hype because the contents were unknown. With random distribution you got the same feeling with opening each one. Hard to discuss it online, obviously, but you can make unboxing videos NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > Bloodartist wrote: > > I've partaken magic limited tournaments where I dumped all the cards I got into the trash bin on my way to the exit. > > > You are mixing your frustration with MTG with completely different game. > > In MTG most non rare cards are total crap outside of limited, in VtES most commons are(should be) useful in any quantities if you are building several decks. There are no comparison. > Yes there is comparison,even if commons in VTES maintain their usefulness much better than in any other ccg. You still need specific rares to make a deck. Good luck trying to build a, say nephandus deck without resorting to ebay. I have personally bought enough VTES 3E boosters for them to enter the "trash value" category for me. Only meaningful cards out of those boosters would be rare. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

But LCG format does not solve Nephandus / Tupdog / Una dillema either. You need 15 / 20 / 45 key cards in those decks. If we consider playsets of 4 you would still need to buy 4 / 5 / 12 starters - bringing in tons of unusable vampires or commons. You would still have to rely on ebay or trading, which is taboo in most LCG communities. LCG certainly has its merits, but at this point I do not see it working without some changes to Vtes or some gameplan at least. Thats why I am worried about future. Also I like trading cards. Its another socializing aspect of the game. czechvtes.blogspot.com/

> Bloodartist wrote: > ...Good luck trying to build a, say nephandus deck without resorting to ebay... > That's why I'm for the third time saying, that for random distribution to work you should change rarity model. Nephandus are hard to find because it's rare from a large set, so you got ~1% chance to get them from booster. It's obviously extremely frustrating. With model, proposed by me, with 8 rares per starter, chosen from 20 card pool, you got like 40% chance to get one from the box. Actually for nephandus (any non-unique ally), I would even propose common rarity. Then you should at average buy 3 boxes to get playset of 8-9 copies. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > Bloodartist wrote: > > ...Good luck trying to build a, say nephandus deck without resorting to ebay... > > > That's why I'm for the third time saying, that for random distribution to work you should change rarity model. > > Nephandus are hard to find because it's rare from a large set, so you got ~1% chance to get them from booster. It's obviously extremely frustrating. > > With model, proposed by me, with 8 rares per starter, chosen from 20 card pool, you got like 40% chance to get one from the box. > > Actually for nephandus (any non-unique ally), I would even propose common rarity. > You'd better, because with 40% to get one in a box, you'd have to buy rougly 37 starters to get your 15, against 4 or 8 fixed starters. Since you can't move all the cards to common rarity, some people will probably complain because Wider View for instance is now a rare. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Since you can't move all the cards to common rarity, some people will probably complain because Wider View for instance is now a rare. > Don't move Wider View to rare, move there (If we look, for example, to 3rd edition): Minor Irritation King's Rising Keep it Simple Perpetual Care Frenzy Peace Treaty Rabble Razing Danse Macabre Special Report Sermon of Caine ... became bored There are crap load of cards in every set which got no place in common rarity in VtES understanding of it (being useful in multiple copies in different decks). NC Russia

It does bear repeating that we will likely be able to print and purchase single cards eventually.

If they were to do random sealed product(they aren't, and if they were it would be draft formulated to perfection) The rarity system would need scrapped and reset to represent how many copies of a card are needed and how many decks need them. So, govern, taste, freak drive, villein,eyes of argus, deflection, deep song, immortal grapple, target vitals, etc would be the new "common" things you need s pair of in many decks or one of in every deck (DI, carlton, bowl, ) uncommon and more limited use stuff (ephor, Ankara citadel, constant revolution) rare. But really they'd thematically pack things for draft if they created boosters, since what I described is redundant with print on demand. But draft made boosters would be amazing, and they could alternate draft text and art to keep us on our toes.

> self wrote: > It does bear repeating that we will likely be able to print and purchase single cards eventually. > It's, obviously, for license holders to decide, but in my understanding for a game to grow you'll need product availability in local stores. It can't be reached with PoD, so there should be "traditional" stuff. Random (but kind of focused) starters looks, for me, more fun, that fixed ones. NC Russia

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > The rarity system would need scrapped and reset to represent how many copies of a card are needed and how many decks need them. > Worth noting, that with fixed content packs rarity system is already sort of scrapped. Rarity makes sense only with CCG booster packs with randomized contents. The useful commons and uncommons from past need to be included in these releases sooner or later. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

I'm inclined to agree with Elotar on this. There is simply something special about opening random boosters that set item decks does not possess. I recently picked up both some booster packs from a local store(online) and won a number of auction on ebay, Awaiting both, and while I know i got the cards I'm looking for in the auctions, I'm hoenstly most exciting about opening the boosters, once they arrive. While the discussion about how long it would take to get a certain amount of Nephandi og Freak Drives makes sense in a context where it is tier 1 or bust, it would be somewhat premature to assume that all new players(which is the currency we are really interested in, in terms of longevity) want to get and play the best cards right a way, or at all for that matter. Some like things a bit more casual, and don't neccesarily yearn for competitive, tournament play. For instance, while I've enjoyed getting my ass kicked by new experienced players I've stumbled upon, the people I used to play with have more or less said that they didn't really enjoy that type of game and have dropped off. And it wasn't just caused by a difference in deck power levels, but also by how the approach to the game was, even in casual play. I'm not sure POD-bundles in the end will revitalise this game. But reviving an old model, maybe updating it a bit, in a sea of LCGs might be worth considering.

> elotar wrote: > > > Brum wrote: > > Since Lords of the Night there has been much hype for the starters, so far that the spoiling of them was an event in of itself. > > I remember the online topics and blog posts regarding them. > > Fun days. > > > You are actually supporting my point - there was hype because the contents were unknown. With random distribution you got the same feeling with opening each one. > > Hard to discuss it online, obviously, but you can make unboxing videos > No.Spoiling them increased hype. Every time.

Elotar, do I remember correctly that some months ago you were the one VERY heavily advocating for the LCG format to be adopted to VTES? If so, now that we have something very close to that format you pine for the boosters is actually funny in a sad way... Finnish Politics!

> self wrote: > It does bear repeating that we will likely be able to print and purchase single cards eventually. > Shhhh! Don't spoil a perfectly good whine! Finnish Politics!

Seriously, if you need your randomness kicks (which I, mind you, fully do understand; there really IS the thrill of opening random packs, a sentiment I share), PLEASE do cube drafts! It's a great, cost effective and safe way to achieve that high without imposing it to the retail formula. Any customer will get the best value from a balanced LCG format, end of story. Randomness and rarities hurt games of this time and age. If, for PERSONAL PREFERNCE, you really enjoy ripping boosters (which, once again, I do as well), separate that urge from where people's money is going, and integrate it into your free time. Cube drafts really do help scratch this itch. If, however, we ever get randomized draft packs for VtES, I'd be ALL for it! For Netrunner they failed because people never need more than 3 copies of a card. For VtES they would work excellently. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Brum wrote: > > No.Spoiling them increased hype. > Every time. > Yea, you are opening unknown box, see it's contents and is excited (if there is something to be excited about). With fixed starters it's one time event when contents are spoiled (generally - online). With random - each time you are opening one. NC Russia

> Lönkka wrote: > Elotar, do I remember correctly that some months ago you were the one VERY heavily advocating for the LCG format to be adopted to VTES? > You are remembering incorrectly. I hate FFG and all their "inventions" with a passion. There was an idea to use cube draft sets as an distribution model, but after I've made such set for our playgroup I understand, that it doubtfully will work. NC Russia

> Kraus wrote: > bla, bla ...cost effective... bla, bla > Any way to play ccg is not cost effective. NC Russia

> Brum wrote: > > > elotar wrote: > > Hard to discuss it online, obviously, but you can make unboxing videos > > > No.Spoiling them increased hype. > Every time. > There is a reason spoiler season before new set prereleases is a thing in Magic the gathering.. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Let's make mental experiment. 3rd edition. Basic set. There are 100 vampires and 300 library cards. I would split pool into 5 subsets of 20 V, 24 R, 36 C, making for each a random 2 clan starter with 88 cards (8R 24V 56C). So from one starter you will got 33% chance to open any particular rare, 1 copy of each vampire and some extras, 1-2 of each commons. By getting 5 boxes you'll got "playset" - 2 copies of each rare, 5 vampires, 7-8 of each common. At local store it's just 5 different starters with easy to grasp contents ("you want nosferatu - here they are"), which can be sold separately and playable as is, or as a playset of 5 different ones. How you are going to make the same set of cards available as an LCG? FFG as I understand uses 60-card packs with 3 copies of the same card. So for 400 card set you would need to have 20(!) such different boxes, each of which is totally useless alone. It looks very unfriendly both for customer and store owner. NC Russia

Elotar, If your argument for random booster packs is "I find opening random packs to be fun." I enjoy gambling and understand that thrill. That's a perfectly valid thing to enjoy! However (and please correct me if i'm wrong), I find your assertion that random booster packs are the better way to distribute a 400 card set for purposes of collection to strain credulity. Given 100 rares in third edition (as per your example), and thirty-six packs in a booster display, at an absolute best you'd have to buy 3 boxes to get a full set. 11 card boosters * 36 boosters in a box * 3 boxes of product is 1,188 cards. let's round that up to 1200, because it makes the math easier. That's 3 full sets worth of cards. Would you rather spend X rectangles (money) on one full set and whatever leftovers, or three full sets? Your arguments read like "I don't want to buy useless cards through pre-constructed decks, I'd rather buy them through random packs." Furthermore, at a $4 price point per 11 pack, you're paying about 36 cents per card. The value offered for a 120 card 'pack' by black chantry sits at about 20 cents per card (before shipping).

Something to keep in mind is which distribution format has the greatest appeal to new players. Yes, opening randomized packs is very exciting, but I personally know too many players who have quit Magic precisely because it amounts to gambling and is an addictive money-sink. I think many players, particularly those here in the USA, are much more keen on buying a product that has all the features and components they expect it to have. I think BloodArtist or SelfBiased once said that VTES is a board game masquerading as a card game. I think that's a good way to phrase it. The target demographic of VTES should be people who play board games, IMO. The people who play CCGs are 90% people who play MTG, and they don't show any interest in learning a new card game (or any other game in my experience) but the board gamers are willing. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

> self wrote: > Bla... bla ... > > Furthermore, at a $4 price point per 11 pack, you're paying about 36 cents per card. The value offered for a 120 card 'pack' by black chantry sits at about 20 cents per card (before shipping). > Using overpriced at retail boosters as an argument for something is not a good way to go. When I was playing mtg "kind of serious" we (players) quickly find a way to buy (15 card) boosters to practice drafts for $2. It's 13 c per card. The guy who sold them was still making profit, so he was getting boosters even cheaper - for $1,5 or even $1, do not know where. Your math, which leads to 1200 cards I do not get. Please, answer the question - how without random packs you are going to provide 400 card set to the casual players, who want just come to local game store, buy something cheaply and play, have fun and then see an easy way to develop collection/deck? NC Russia

> LivesByProxy wrote: > > I think BloodArtist or SelfBiased once said that VTES is a board game masquerading as a card game. I think that's a good way to phrase it. The target demographic of VTES should be people who play board games, IMO. The people who play CCGs are 90% people who play MTG, and they don't show any interest in learning a new card game (or any other game in my experience) but the board gamers are willing. > Most serious VtES players I know earlier played mtg. Boardgamers are used to spend $50 and have a complete game. Actually 75-80% of boardgamers are used to spend nothing and play games, bought by 20% For 10c per card it's little more, than 1 copy of each card from a standard basic set. You can play with it, but it'll got nothing to do with VtES NC Russia

> Silmegil wrote: > From my personal view, I love boosters. I do not gamble IRL in any shape or point, no scratchies, betting or lottery, so boosters are my fix. True that I love drafts so much, that cube could be my fix, but for me its not the same - again, my personal feeling. > > self wrote: > If your argument for random booster packs is "I find opening random packs to be fun."I enjoy gambling and understand that thrill.[/i] > This all touches on something I wish would be incorporated into VTES: gambling. If the CCG model of distribution is going to be scrapped, then something else needs to fill the "excitement void" left by not having booster packs to open. I tried coming up with a variant where players would gamble money before the game started, like how players could ante a card in the old days, only the ante would be money. I even went as far as pre-building a series of "duel decks" that would match up evenly to see if gambling would also help two-player games be more exciting. So imagine a variant of VTES for 2 players using prebuilt decks to ensure an even matchup, where players would ante money to add excitement. It worked very well except for one thing: superior Govern (and other similar effects) allowing a player to move blood to an uncontrolled vampire, with the restriction that the vampire be younger. Well, with no way for the opposing player to see uncontrolled vampires, there was no way to enforce that restriction. And therefore, there was no way to check if someone was cheating, which would be a big deal if money were on the line. So I’m unsure if this variant can really work. I wish it did, because 2-player VTES is very underrated, especially in the context of prebuilt decks that interact well, and this variant made it easier to teach people a simpler version of the game. And gambling money is fun. But, point being, if the CCG model is going bye bye (as it definitely should), I do feel something else needs to be incorporated to add excitement lost from the loss of randomized booster packs.

No. Just, no. Play the game. It's exciting. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Real-money gambling aspect is the worst idea for this game I've heard in a long time, sorry. Just no. As for "random is exciting"... meh. I think the frustration of getting N+1 copies of a useless card while trying to get a few copies of the card you need for your decks overrides that excitement. And also, I hate hate hate rare cards that you suddenly need 8+ copies of in order to build a certain deck. So good riddance to random & rarity, in my opinion. As for new players: maybe the guys will introduce ready-to-play starter decks again at some point. Or this-is-all-you-need-to-play starter kits.

> Kraus wrote: > No. > > Just, no. > Why? > Play the game. It's exciting. > I have, and multiplayer is not for me. I like two player better. > PetriWessman wrote: > Real-money gambling aspect is the worst idea for this game I've heard in a long time, sorry. Just no. > Why? You don't have to say sorry before shooting down the idea, but I'm curious why people would not even consider it. Have you tried? Again, it worked well for me when I was showing friends and friends of friends how to play.

> PetriWessman wrote: > ...frustration of getting N+1 copies of a useless card while trying to get a few copies of the card you need for your decks... > How will it be changed with fixed distribution? From presemt KoT reprints, for example, I need just charismatic auras. But 8 copies. How many useless cardboard I have to buy to get them? > PetriWessman wrote: > As for new players: maybe the guys will introduce ready-to-play starter decks again at some point. Or this-is-all-you-need-to-play starter kits. > After first couple of games any new player, who like the game, will want to start deckbuilding. So one more time - how you are suggesting to provide opportunity for this to him at a local game store? NC Russia

> I have, and multiplayer is not for me. I like two player better. > I mean, here's the thing: in that case you're not talking about VtES anymore. VtES is a 4-5 player multiplayer deck-building card game. Anything other than that is not VtES as is, but something else entirely. If you want to have kicks on gambling, and don't do VtES, why are you suggesting gambling on a VtES forum? As a matter of fact, the game used to have playing-for-ante cards. They are banned from competitive play. It's a hobby, not work, and for one I don't want to start making money out of my hobbies. It makes player and fan bases toxic. People I know want to spend their money on living expenses and life. > So one more time - how you are suggesting to provide opportunity for this to him at a local game store? > This game really goes both ways: hypothetically, if YOU were the designer, and forced out of the random distribution model (let's just pretend that's a thing), how would you do that? "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > It makes player and fan bases toxic. > This is true. Having money at stake is not a good idea for a card game. > Kraus wrote: > This game really goes both ways: hypothetically, if YOU were the designer, and forced out of the random distribution model (let's just pretend that's a thing), how would you do that? > It's not a game, it's kind of a math exercise. When we have limitations of store (no more than 5-6 products), of player (ability to purchase in $10 bunches) and the game (8+ copies of some cards in a deck are essential) than I see no acceptable "solution" with fixed product contents. NC Russia

> Kraus wrote: > > > I have, and multiplayer is not for me. I like two player better. > > > I mean, here's the thing: in that case you're not talking about VtES anymore. VtES is a 4-5 player multiplayer deck-building card game. Anything other than that is not VtES as is, but something else entirely. > Technically, this is false. From the rulebook: "Vampire: The Eternal Struggle is a trading card game in which two or more players take on the roles of ancient vampires known as Methuselahs." In reality, though, I get that VTES is intended as a multiplayer game, and that 2-player games are not the same as multiplayer games. No argument from me on that. I will argue that I am still playing VTES, although in a different way than most people play it. I'm still using VTES decks and playing the game as outlined in the rulebook. It's still VTES, just not multiplayer. > If you want to have kicks on gambling, and don't do VtES, why are you suggesting gambling on a VtES forum? > Again, I am "doing" VTES. See the quoted section in the rulebook above. It's just different than how you "do" VTES. > As a matter of fact, the game used to have playing-for-ante cards. They are banned from competitive play. It's a hobby, not work, and for one I don't want to start making money out of my hobbies. It makes player and fan bases toxic. > Perhaps I should reiterate that what I am proposing is a variant of VTES, not changing VTES entirely. What I had in mind was a purely casual variant with a "house rule" where people can ante money. I agree that it should not be competitive because of the issue with the uncontrolled region and not being able to check if a restriction is met.

> elotar wrote: > How will it be changed with fixed distribution? From presemt KoT reprints, for example, I need just charismatic auras. But 8 copies. How many useless cardboard I have to buy to get them? > How many boosters of would you have to buy to get 8 copies of charismatic aura? Charismatic Aura is listed as uncommon.You get 2 uncommons per pack. Assuming even distribution you'll have to buy 49 packs to get ONE copy of that card and 538 other bits of useless cardboard. Remember that you said your only aim is to get Charismatic Aura. Following that math, you'll have to buy 390 packs to get 8 of that card and as a result have 4,300 more useless bits of cardboard. The way i see it you have these options: Wait until Black Chantry offers singles as print on demand and buy singles there. Wait for the secondary market to get its stock of what i assume will be a MASSIVE influx of stock from the reprints and buy them as singles from ebay or whatever have you. If that doesnt work for you, then i can only offer you the words of the prophet Jagger: youty.be/82zY9oAIu7A

> What I had in mind was a purely casual variant with a "house rule" where people can ante money. > Please do. Pool and blood counters as 20c coins? There you go. No need to go any more official with it than that. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> self wrote: > How many boosters of would you have to buy to get 8 copies of charismatic aura? Charismatic Aura is listed as uncommon. > Forth time: for random distribution to work present rarity system should be changed. CA should, obviously, be common. > self wrote: > you have these options: > I will find what to do (play one of the two dozen other decks) . What you are suggesting for a casual player to do? NC Russia

> I will find what to do (play one of the two dozen other decks) . What you are suggesting for a casual player to do? > Play casually and not worry about fine tuning their deck based on TWDA entries and count their pennies for the most cost effective way of doing it. They'll play with those 6 Deep Songs from (let's say) two expansion packs they bought, and complement the rest with Haven Uncovered, Laptop Computers and Harass that they already have from the Core starter box.. Then, hopefully, they'll have a good time. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > They'll play with those 6 Deep Songs from (let's say) two expansion packs they bought, and complement the rest with Haven Uncovered, Laptop Computers and Harass that they already have from the Core starter box.. > Please. There are 400 cards. Distribute them between "Core starter box" and "expansion packs" so situation you've described will be possible. 6 deep song in 2 expansion boxes means 3 cards in a box. We already find that this leads us (or FFG, who actially managed to do it) to 20 different boxes for one set worth of cards. It's a fail. NC Russia

Skipping this debate about format. I stated my opinion and how the game ends now, I put aside. One thing I am missing here is a concept. I am not in a loop for some time, but some people here are saying there will probably be some kind of starters or that there will be probably option to purchase singles on demand. While its nice you are confident about this info, I have no base for it. I tried searching some and have not found anything promised or confirmed what is planed. I have been burned investing into things that crashed because there was no clear plan how to proceed. So again, this did not convince me to invest, its actually otherwise. And trust me, I am not only one. I do not want to get hyped for 2 years just for the game to die again. So lets be clear, whether is a future model TCG, LCG, POD or whatever, there should be some confidence instilled in customers. Vtes is a great game, but it has giant problems. We do not need to add more with this being unclear. And while it may seem that one person is not important, I will voice my complains if asked. I would love to invest into these things, but information given to me at this point suggests otherwise. czechvtes.blogspot.com/

Ben Peal used to talk about the starter set and the problems they were having a year, half-a-year back. The distribution and content weighs were discussed back then. That alone assures me that they're really working on a starter set. > > elotar wrote: > > > Kraus wrote: > > They'll play with those 6 Deep Songs from (let's say) two expansion packs they bought, and complement the rest with Haven Uncovered, Laptop Computers and Harass that they already have from the Core starter box.. > > > Please. There are 400 cards. Distribute them between "Core starter box" and "expansion packs" so situation you've described will be possible. > > 6 deep song in 2 expansion boxes means 3 cards in a box. We already find that this leads us (or FFG, who actially managed to do it) to 20 different boxes for one set worth of cards. It's a fail. > I haven't seen FFG's pack distribution as a fail. Quite the opposite. Furthermore, Black Chantry offers 120 card packs at the moment. There's plenty that could fit in. It's all about sorting out the rarit-- sorry, quantities of cards you're sure to get. For fixed distribution to work previous rarity system should be changed "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > Ben Peal used to talk about the starter set and the problems they were having a year, half-a-year back. The distribution and content weighs were discussed back then. That alone assures me that they're really working on a starter set. > We're really working on a starter set. Nothing else to formally (or informally) announce about it at this time. We'll announce stuff when we're ready to announce stuff.

> Silmegil wrote: > ... > They're really working on a starter set. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > I haven't seen FFG's pack distribution as a fail. Quite the opposite. Furthermore, Black Chantry offers 120 card packs at the moment. There's plenty that could fit in. It's all about sorting out the rarit-- sorry, quantities of cards you're sure to get. For fixed distribution to work previous rarity system should be changed > If you think, that it'll be possible for VtES to distribute each set to the stores in the format of 20 different boxes and have any hope to be successful with it, than we are really have nothing to discuss. NC Russia

Yeah, I was beginning to think that's the case a few posts back... My bad in even trying. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> self wrote: > How many boosters of would you have to buy to get 8 copies of charismatic aura? Charismatic Aura is listed as uncommon.You get 2 uncommons per pack. Assuming even distribution you'll have to buy 49 packs to get ONE copy of that card and 538 other bits of useless cardboard. Remember that you said your only aim is to get Charismatic Aura. Following that math, you'll have to buy 390 packs to get 8 of that card and as a result have 4,300 more useless bits of cardboard. > This, very much. Even though the "fixed set" approach has its problems, the random booster scheme was much, much worse. Been there done that, and would not like to go back. Ideally, some time down the line we'd be able to order sets on a card-by-card basis from print-on-demand. In the meantime, I'll take this format over random boosters any day of the week. As to how to get it to new players via game stores: that's partly a different topic, and one I suspect the guys at Black Chantry (along with various retailers) are brainstorming about. I don't have the answers to that. I'm pretty sure someone will come up with an ok solution later. Will it be perfect? Probably not.

Something fun: "Wax packs, also called unopened packs, are collectible cards still in their original packaging. Similarly, trading-card boxes are unopened boxes of cards. Buying wax packs and trading-card boxes involves a little bit of risk and suspense, and a whole lot of self-control—you won’t know what you’ve bought until you open the pack, but opening it decreases the value, so most collectors never do. Most, but not all, wax packs include a stick of bubble gum. If the wax pack is vintage, the gum is likely rock-hard by now. Vintage wax packs printed before the 1970s are especially sought-after. While some people call wax pack collectors crazy, the accumulation of unopened packs is simple economics: the packs of cards themselves are often scarcer than the cards inside, so the unopened packs gain value both for collectors of unopened packs and for those hoping to get their hands on a pristine Mickey Mantle or Michael Jordan card. And every time an unopened pack from pre-1970 is opened, that means one fewer wax pack still exists, and the value of those that do goes up. Most unopened packs of interest to collectors date from the 1960s or before, but the most collectible basketball wax pack is the 1986 Fleer set. Although there are ample supplies of this pack, demand always seems to outweigh it, as this is the set that contains the coveted Michael Jordan rookie card. " 1986 freer booster costs $150 for 12 cards. Money grab! Fools! If they just PoD those cards for 10c per copy than everybody will be instantly happy! Or not really? Maybe... Lol. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > Most, but not all, wax packs include a stick of bubble gum. If the wax pack is vintage, the gum is likely rock-hard by now. > Heh. The gum was rock-hard when it was new.

"Will they sell boosters?" "No they won't" [10 pages talking about boosters] ...I think I'm not used to forum anymore XD Anyway, is there a way to have a big bunch of cards arriving in Europe, let's say, without paying with a kidney? Only in my city we are planning to buy something like 50+, and all Italy is stirring out of torpor... I read something from Janne but it was not so reassuring... Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

> thelonius wrote: > "Will they sell boosters?" > "No they won't" > > ... > > Anyway, is there a way to have a big bunch of cards arriving in Europe, let's say, without paying with a kidney > Boosters? How much they was cost at your stores, when they was there? How they managed to do it if at the place of production they cost the same? It's kind of funny how people think, that there is a way to play CCG without being "ripped off". NC Russia

So anyway, Is there any chance of prize support? Ideally, the previously unprinted KoT vamps for the NAC and the storyline rewards vamps seeing actual print by the EC? These all seem like viable prize promo vamps. Alternatively, down the road can we get special distribution of alternative art prints specific to various events or years? I'd be willing to pay steeper entry by some marginal amount to make that part of the equation......

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > So anyway, > > Is there any chance of prize support? > Absolutely, we are thinking about it. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > > This all touches on something I wish would be incorporated into VTES: gambling. If the CCG model of distribution is going to be scrapped, then something else needs to fill the "excitement void" left by not having booster packs to open. > Just so game could be banned by legislative entities like they have started on doing with lootboxes in video games? Link to eurogamer article Some people like to gamble. Gamble. Don't push it into our CCG. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > > This all touches on something I wish would be incorporated into VTES: gambling. If the CCG model of distribution is going to be scrapped, then something else needs to fill the "excitement void" left by not having booster packs to open. > Play with ante. Fixed. -1 Strength

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > > > This all touches on something I wish would be incorporated into VTES: gambling. If the CCG model of distribution is going to be scrapped, then something else needs to fill the "excitement void" left by not having booster packs to open. > > > Just so game could be banned by legislative entities like they have started on doing with lootboxes in video games? > Link to eurogamer article > A legislative body would not be involved. Because any gambling I would conduct would be done as an optional house rule in a specific variant of VTES. > ]Some people like to gamble. Gamble. Don't push it into our CCG. > That's what I'm doing. I'm not trying to push anything on anyone. I like to gamble, so I have a house rule allowing it. All I was stating in my post was my preference, and what I'd personally like to see.

I'd like to see more human sacrifices in VTES, and demons everywhere. I like human sacrifices. Hopefully, we are not going to introduce that nor gambling in the game Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > I'd like to see more human sacrifices in VTES, and demons everywhere. I like human sacrifices. Hopefully, we are not going to introduce that nor gambling in the game > Damn. *puts away the ceremonial dagger* Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

> Ankha wrote: > I'd like to see more human sacrifices in VTES, and demons everywhere. I like human sacrifices. Hopefully, we are not going to introduce that nor gambling in the game > I'd rather have human sacrifices and demons than having to purchase random booster packs.

> thelonius wrote: > Anyway, is there a way to have a big bunch of cards arriving in Europe, let's say, without paying with a kidney? Only in my city we are planning to buy something like 50+, and all Italy is stirring out of torpor... I read something from Janne but it was not so reassuring... > We're in the process of doing something about it. Unfortunately it'll take some time. Like a couple months. Unfortunately can't go into details. Like discuss about it at all. Sorry, I KNOW that wasn't the answer you were hoping! Naturally, when able to do so there will be an announcement. Finnish Politics!

Hi Lönkka, To me that answer is still a god-send. It only means I'll wait a couple of months to buy the bundles. Thanks! I'm looking forward to getting back into VTES after oh 20 years . Regards, Jonas

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone working to make this game available again. Really means a lot.

Hello all, has anybody out there already received the new cards/bundles, and can say somehing about their quality? Best regards, Hardy "It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality" --- Hardy Range Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager

The cards are good quality and the printing is great. I've heard a couple people complain of miscuts, but I had no such issues. If the back and expansion symbol hadn't changed, I doubt you'd notice a difference.

We'd kill for comparison pictures! "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > We'd kill for comparison pictures! > Ankha just said: no human sacrifices.

> hardyrange wrote: > Hello all, > > has anybody out there already received the new cards/bundles, and can say somehing about their quality? > > Best regards, > > Hardy > Got mine today. The cards do have a very slighly different finish if you glare light off them, but you can see slight differences between some of the earlier expansion printing too. The quality is good. They're proper cards. My only complaint (aside from the cost of shipping to Canada) is that they ship by UPS. I wish they shipped by standard postal service instead.

> hardyrange wrote: > My only complaint (aside from the cost of shipping to Canada) is that they ship by UPS. I wish they shipped by standard postal service instead. > They also ship by USPS. Perhaps that option is only available if you order many bundles (our playgroup ordered 69). The shipping cost per bundle to Spain was around US$2. V:EKN Website Coordinator

First card arrived in Italy.. . 15 boxes had a fee of 76€ more or less. Even if it is "only" less than 6€ per box, we are actually restraining any further order waiting for more European solutions. I know that there are companies interested and already in contact with black chantry (even from my own city... ). Italy is waiting to place an order of almost 300 boxes by now. Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

> Damnans wrote: > > > hardyrange wrote: > > My only complaint (aside from the cost of shipping to Canada) is that they ship by UPS. I wish they shipped by standard postal service instead. > > > They also ship by USPS. > > Perhaps that option is only available if you order many bundles (our playgroup ordered 69). > > The shipping cost per bundle to Spain was around US$2. > $1656 + $138 = $1794 21% VAT for that sum is $348 ($5 per bundle) Plus possible tax (don't know if Spain taxes playing cards). So grand total would be $24+ $2 +$5 = $31 per bundle (plus tax?) Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > > $1656 + $138 = $1794 > 21% VAT for that sum is $348 ($5 per bundle) > > Plus possible tax (don't know if Spain taxes playing cards). > > So grand total would be $24+ $2 +$5 = $31 per bundle (plus tax?) > We haven't received our order yet, but we reckon the total cost will closely match your figure. V:EKN Website Coordinator

I ordered 8 bundles for myself, at a cost of $192 US, plus $32.60 shipping and a further $21 Cdn (about $16 US) charge upon pickup, which works out to just a little more than $6 US total shipping, or $30 total, per bundle. UPS was the only shipping option I had, IIRC, otherwise I wouldn't have chosen it. They always deliver while I'm at work (the cards arrived last Friday, but they came by at noon) and when I called for them to put a hold on the package, I had to drive 50 minutes to the depot, and then back again. If it was through regular postal service, they deliver right around the time I get home, and even if I miss them, the post office is 5 minutes away. On a side note, if you Europeans can figure out a continental printing solution, I think it's entirely likely that having it shipped from Europe to Canada would be cheaper than from the US. Regardless, still waiting for those HttB bundles so I can do it again...

> Damnans wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > > > $1656 + $138 = $1794 > > 21% VAT for that sum is $348 ($5 per bundle) > > > > Plus possible tax (don't know if Spain taxes playing cards). > > > > So grand total would be $24+ $2 +$5 = $31 per bundle (plus tax?) > > > We haven't received our order yet, but we reckon the total cost will closely match your figure. > Are you counting on the Customs fees? In Portugal that's 25% extra...

> Brum wrote: > > Are you counting on the Customs fees? > In Portugal that's 25% extra... > Yes, I am. But those are very cheap in Spain. Maybe a customs fee of 30€ in addition to the 21% VAT mentioned above. V:EKN Website Coordinator

> Brum wrote: > Are you counting on the Customs fees? > In Portugal that's 25% extra... > Huh? Percentage FEES on top of VAT!? What kind of system doesn't use flat fees? It is not like they need to do more work if you are importing 50 bundles instead of 1... Shees! Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > > Huh? > Percentage FEES on top of VAT!? > > What kind of system doesn't use flat fees? > It is not like they need to do more work if you are importing 50 bundles instead of 1... > > Shees! > There are tariffs in existence for certain products. These are usually country specific (between two countries/sovereign states) and may be subject to change within a relatively small time frame since they are political thing . In other words, there is more to customs than just VAT. I know that at some point in history there was such a penalty fee for ordering "toys" to Finland from USA. Sometimes, when the order is small enough, an individual person may be able to circumvent customs by giving the package a misleading label. This is not something to consider with large shipments.. If we could find a way to print and ship these cards from somewhere within EU(No problems with VAT within EU at least), it would be huge in avoiding things like this both now and in the future. I dont think that place should be UK however. Whether UK is part of EU is bit of up in the air.. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Lönkka wrote: > > > Brum wrote: > > Are you counting on the Customs fees? > > In Portugal that's 25% extra... > > > Huh? > Percentage FEES on top of VAT!? > > What kind of system doesn't use flat fees? > It is not like they need to do more work if you are importing 50 bundles instead of 1... > > Shees! > Same in Italy, that's why we have frozen our orders Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

Just received my cards. Print quality excellent, art likewise. On the KoT reprints, the art has been balanced better for printing and a lot of the cards look better than my KoT originals. Good job, guys Did not get hit by customs (pure luck), so the total price for 3 packs came out at a bit over 27 euros per pack.

> Lönkka wrote: > > > Brum wrote: > > Are you counting on the Customs fees? > > In Portugal that's 25% extra... > > > Huh? > Percentage FEES on top of VAT!? > > What kind of system doesn't use flat fees? > It is not like they need to do more work if you are importing 50 bundles instead of 1... > > Shees! > Oh you people who come from well organized countries. You are so cute.

> Brum wrote: > > > Damnans wrote: > > > > > Lönkka wrote: > > > > > > $1656 + $138 = $1794 > > > 21% VAT for that sum is $348 ($5 per bundle) > > > > > > Plus possible tax (don't know if Spain taxes playing cards). > > > > > > So grand total would be $24+ $2 +$5 = $31 per bundle (plus tax?) > > > > > > > > We haven't received our order yet, but we reckon the total cost will closely match your figure. > > > Are you counting on the Customs fees? > In Portugal that's 25% extra... > I've checked on the Customs site and as far as I can tell (the site is a mess...) currently the tariffs on goods classified as Playing Cards imported from the US is 2.7%, plus the regular customs fee of ~10€.

> Brum wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > > > > Brum wrote: > > > Are you counting on the Customs fees? > > > In Portugal that's 25% extra... > > > > > > > > > > Huh? > > Percentage FEES on top of VAT!? > > > > What kind of system doesn't use flat fees? > > It is not like they need to do more work if you are importing 50 bundles instead of 1... > > > > Shees! > > > Oh you people who come from well organized countries. > You are so cute. > Oh you people who come from well organized countries. You are so cute. In Brazil the tax are 60% of the total price + shipping plus R$ 15,00 plus random chance that a tax accountant is in a bad mood an apply a fine off 100% over the difference between the alleged price and the calculated price. And we have laws saying that cards and book dont need to pay import fees, but if you form a file claiming that, you encounter another one in a bad mood that will apply you a fee for a false claiming. After pay all that you can still have your package stolen and lost Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

> skimflux wrote: > > > Brum wrote: > > > > > Damnans wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lönkka wrote: > > > > > > > > $1656 + $138 = $1794 > > > > 21% VAT for that sum is $348 ($5 per bundle) > > > > > > > > Plus possible tax (don't know if Spain taxes playing cards). > > > > > > > > So grand total would be $24+ $2 +$5 = $31 per bundle (plus tax?) > > > > > > > > > > > We haven't received our order yet, but we reckon the total cost will closely match your figure. > > > > > > > > Are you counting on the Customs fees? > > In Portugal that's 25% extra... > > > I've checked on the Customs site and as far as I can tell (the site is a mess...) currently the tariffs on goods classified as Playing Cards imported from the US is 2.7%, plus the regular customs fee of ~10€. > I'm glad it might have changed since the last time my stuff got stopped and I had to pay 27% plus 'customs warehouse fees' . It was not in in the last few months, so the law might have changed. Did you order cards? Please let us know how that went for you.

> Brum wrote: > > > skimflux wrote: > > > > > Brum wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damnans wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lönkka wrote: > > > > > > > > > > $1656 + $138 = $1794 > > > > > 21% VAT for that sum is $348 ($5 per bundle) > > > > > > > > > > Plus possible tax (don't know if Spain taxes playing cards). > > > > > > > > > > So grand total would be $24+ $2 +$5 = $31 per bundle (plus tax?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We haven't received our order yet, but we reckon the total cost will closely match your figure. > > > > > > > > > > > Are you counting on the Customs fees? > > > In Portugal that's 25% extra... > > > > > > > > I've checked on the Customs site and as far as I can tell (the site is a mess...) currently the tariffs on goods classified as Playing Cards imported from the US is 2.7%, plus the regular customs fee of ~10€. > > > I'm glad it might have changed since the last time my stuff got stopped and I had to pay 27% plus 'customs warehouse fees' . > It was not in in the last few months, so the law might have changed. > > Did you order cards? > Please let us know how that went for you. > It might not - they do have a lot of leeway on classifying packages and determining the appropriate tariff, so it is quite possible that whoever handled your order decided to apply a different rate for some reason. Or maybe he 'forgot' to read the point in 2.7%... Also, if your order was sent through a shipping company (and not regular CTT) and they get to handle customs, you will be charged quite a bit extra for the service. I have not made my order yet but will probably do so soon, I will let you know.

Time to stop quoting... Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > Time to stop quoting... > you're not my real mom!

I got the cards. Thank you Black Chantry!

Is there any news about European distribution? Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

> thelonius wrote: > Is there any news about European distribution? > is there a story on the front page or a thread about it in the 'news and announcements' forum?

45 sets shipping to Brazil! Any coupom for orders over 1000 dollars? Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

> thelonius wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > > > > Brum wrote: > > > Are you counting on the Customs fees? > > > In Portugal that's 25% extra... > > > > > > > > > > Huh? > > Percentage FEES on top of VAT!? > > > > What kind of system doesn't use flat fees? > > It is not like they need to do more work if you are importing 50 bundles instead of 1... > > > > Shees! > > > Same in Italy, that's why we have frozen our orders > Hi all ! Customs Officer speaking here As I explained to my French players, here is the calculation for French import taxes from US Customs taxes on Cards : 2,70% (going to the EU budget FYI) www.tarifdouanier.eu/2018/95044000 So your 100€ VtES is now 102,70€ Then every country applies its own VAT on it (for national budgets) : In France, it's 20% So now your order costs 123,24€ (23,24%). BUT we, european customs officers, do this simple math for free. AND if some private companies obtained the right to do it for their clients they WILL charge you for that (e.g. La Poste took me 20€ as "customs fee" for my Zone 1 Alias DVD Rambaldi Box, in addition to the mentioned before taxes). So, my point is : we, as customs officers, didn ´t bleed (pun intended) you to death to get your cards but UPS did ! And lastly, with Trump's economic warfare on steel, the EU might put 25% more on products from USA (not tcg for now, only Florida Orange Juice, Harley Davidsons and Bourbon). Thanks for your attention, you can go back to torpor. PS : as the Italian NC said, my local Northern playgroup is holding the order until a European seller is chosen. Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

Hi out there, for what it's worth, feedback from Germany: Here, we were charged 2,7 % toll, and 19 % taxes. We had an order of 49 sets total (which of course helped to reduce shipping costs), and in the end paid € 26,40 per 120-card set. "It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality" --- Hardy Range Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager

> Vlad wrote: > > > thelonius wrote: > > > > > Lönkka wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brum wrote: > > > > Are you counting on the Customs fees? > > > > In Portugal that's 25% extra... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Huh? > > > Percentage FEES on top of VAT!? > > > > > > What kind of system doesn't use flat fees? > > > It is not like they need to do more work if you are importing 50 bundles instead of 1... > > > > > > Shees! > > > > > > > > Same in Italy, that's why we have frozen our orders > > > Hi all ! > > Customs Officer speaking here > > As I explained to my French players, here is the calculation for French import taxes from US > > Customs taxes on Cards : 2,70% (going to the EU budget FYI) > > www.tarifdouanier.eu/2018/95044000 > > So your 100€ VtES is now 102,70€ > > Then every country applies its own VAT on it (for national budgets) : > > In France, it's 20% > > So now your order costs 123,24€ (23,24%). > > BUT we, european customs officers, do this simple math for free. > > AND if some private companies obtained the right to do it for their clients they WILL charge you for that (e.g. La Poste took me 20€ as "customs fee" for my Zone 1 Alias DVD Rambaldi Box, in addition to the mentioned before taxes). > > So, my point is : we, as customs officers, didn ´t bleed (pun intended) you to death to get your cards but UPS did ! > > And lastly, with Trump's economic warfare on steel, the EU might put 25% more on products from USA (not tcg for now, only Florida Orange Juice, Harley Davidsons and Bourbon). > > Thanks for your attention, you can go back to torpor. > > PS : as the Italian NC said, my local Northern playgroup is holding the order until a European seller is chosen. > I will check it asap but I heard on the radio news this morning that playing Cards will get more taxes because of Trump war on steel and aluminium. If I read it correctly it should be 10% more. Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

I made the New calculations for us French Cards value : 100€ from US Customs tax : 2,7% 102,7 Anti Trump 10% 112,97 VAT (in France 20%) 135,56€ Without UPS fee of course Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

> Vlad wrote: > Anti Trump 10% > Gaaa! NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > Vlad wrote: > > Anti Trump 10% > > > Gaaa! > Only for EU players of course Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord