Karen Suadela and Fall of the Camarilla

Is Karen Suadela still considered a Prince while Fall of the Camarilla is in play? Karen Suadela Capacity: 7 Group: 5 Camarilla Prince of Houston: Gehenna cards do not affect Karen while she is a prince. She gets +1 stealth on undirected actions. Fall of the Camarilla Event Gehenna. Do not replace as long as this card is in play. Requires at least three other Gehenna cards in play. There is no Camarilla. Any Camarilla vampire is considered Independent instead. Thanks! -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

> Killiam wrote: > Is Karen Suadela still considered a Prince while Fall of the Camarilla is in play? > Yes. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Interestingly enough this was not asked in the large Karen Suadela vs Gehenna events post . I cannot find a ruling on it either. My take: She's is immune to the "[a]ny Camarilla vampire is considered Independent instead" if she's a Prince. The previous sentence, however, does not target vampires, it targets a sect. One cannot be a Prince unless you are Camarilla, but there is no Camarilla, so Karen cannot be a Prince. Therefore, if Fall of the Camarilla comes into play, Karen will be affected.

Well, Ankha and I cross-posted, but I am confused about this. Is my reasoning faulty?

> LSJ wrote: > >> b) If Fall of the Camarilla is played, does her Prince-ness make her > >> immune to it, or does its "There is no Camarilla" make her not a Prince? > > > > Hmm ... An interesting one. It would seem to me that there being no > > more Camarilla means she is no longer a Prince, and thus her ability > > cannot protect her to keep her title, since the ability wouldn't > > nullify the "There is no Camarilla" global effect in the first place. > She is immune to it (and remains a Camarilla Prince) as long as she remains a > Prince. If she loses the Prince title, she loses the immunity and immediately > becomes Independent. > in groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/e2PNDpg-l_c/wqEDxGHKJQgJ Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I didn't find that one. Thanks.

Follow-up questions — consider the following: Let’s assume that Karen is ready, Fall of the Camarilla is in play, and she is still a Prince. Then an Archbishop comes into play who contests Karen’s city title. While the title is contested, she of course becomes an independent vampire (please correct me if I’m wrong). Question 1: Is Karen allowed to continue to contest the title, even though she is now independent, and can not validly hold a Prince title? Question 2 (If yes to 1): If Karen wins the contest, does she become a Prince again, and thus immune to Fall OTC, or does the fact that she cannot be Camarilla beforehand exclude her from regaining the Cam title? -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

> Killiam wrote: > Question 1: Is Karen allowed to continue to contest the title, even though she is now independent, and can not validly hold a Prince title? > No. From the rulebook, section 10: A vampire must belong to the appropriate sect to receive a title. If a vampire with a title changes clans or sects to a clan or sect inappropriate for his title, he loses the benefit of the title until his clan or sect changes appropriately. If he receives a new title, or if his title is contested (see Contested Titles, sec. 4.2), he immediately yields the old title.