My 1st Deck (Having Never Played VTES)

So I've never played VTES before, but I'm interested in the game and it looks pretty fun. Here is the deck I was thinking about playing (assume I could acquire the cards and find a group...): Crypt (14 cards; Capacity min=3 max=9 avg=6.454545) ================== 2x Henry Taylor | 6 cel pre pro POT | Brujah antitribu:3 1x Icarus, The Manchurian | 7 ani for pro OBF POT | Nosferatu antitribu:4 2x Nails | 5 ani obf pro POT | Nosferatu antitribu:4 1x Ryder | 7 ani pot FOR PRO | Gangrel:4 1x Baron Dieudonne | 9 ANI OBF POT PRO | Nosferatu:4 1x Skryta Zyleta | 5 obf pot pro CEL | Gangrel antitribu:3 1x Soldat | 7 cel dom obf POT PRO | Gangrel antitribu:3 2x Bill Butler | 3 pot pro | Gangrel antitribu:4 1x Black Annis | 9 ani pro OBF POT | Nosferatu antitribu:4 1x Aeron | 9 aus pro ANI OBF POT | Nosferatu antitribu:3 1x Alessandro Garcia | 4 pot pre pro | Brujah antitribu:4 Library: 70 cards Master (16 cards) ================== 1x Arcanum Chapterhouse, Alexandria 1x Major Boon 1x Momentum's Edge 1x Not to Be 1x Ashur Tablets 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion 1x Powerbase: Montreal 1x Shanty Town Hunting Ground 3x Villein 1x Wash 1x Wider View 1x Brainwash 1x Direct Intervention 1x Dreams of the Sphinx Action (9 cards) ================== 3x Ambush 3x Bum's Rush 3x Computer Hacking Combat (27 cards) ================== 4x Gleam of Red Eyes 3x Immortal Grapple 7x Pushing the Limit 4x Slam 3x Wolf Claws 3x Claws of the Dead 3x Disarm Reaction (18 cards) ================== 6x Eyes of the Beast 3x Forced Awakening 4x On the Qui Vive 2x Sonar 3x Wake with Evening's Freshness So the goal is to be so threatening in combat that my prey lets me bleed them for 1-3 pool repeatedly with 1-3 vamps and/or the occasional Computer Hacking. The deck is built around Protean and Potence as a combo package of sorts, letting me hit an opposing vampire in combat for 3+ agg damage, torpor'ing them or outright threatening to burn them (especially weenies). To defend against my predator, I've got plenty of wakes (Forced Awakening, Qui Vive, Evening's Freshness, Baron Dieudonne's special ability) and intercept bonuses (Eyes of the Beast, Sonar, Ryder's special ability). I can also rush across-table or my predator (with Bum's Rush, Ambush, and Black Annis' special ability) but importantly, my goal here is not to completely crater (assuming I'm using that term correctly?) my prey or another player, but only threaten to set them back sufficiently. I want my prey to be able to wound his prey, so I make 0 stealth bleeds and dare them to block, applying pressure but not too much. Likewise, I'm not trying to make my predator powerless against his prey, only punishing them when they try big bleeds or other direct actions or political actions against me and my minions. I'm not really a fan of the Sabbat, but Group 3-4 had the best capacity range of vamps for my PRO-PO strategy. * Dieudonne, has his built-in wake and can offer some vote protection, * Annis has built-in rush and +1 strength, * Aeron has built-in bonus damage and an optional press and offers some vote protection, * Bill Butler and Alessandro Garcia are just weenies, so they come out early, that I can bleed with for cheap or throw in the way of my predator or intercept some other action; they aren't the heaviest hitters but they can still threaten, which is the point, * Skyreta Zyleta is there for the same reasons Butler and Garcia are, but she's also a Black Hand member so that is nice. * Icarus, the Manchurian is another great vamp to bleed / threaten with. Do you block and get beat-down by him? Or do you take the bleed and show me your hand? * Ryder can also peek at my prey's hand, which is great for avoiding S:CE and Dodges, and has his +1 intercept on {D} actions. * Soldat is solid with his superior Protean and Potence, and his special ability to burn the Edge to give a Black Hand vamp a maneuver (including himself) could be relevant sometimes. * Henry Taylor has POT meaning he can hit hard and Pro so he can do agg damage, but his special ability lets him recover a combat cards he uses, which is why he is a 2-of in my crypt. * Last but not least is Nails who is the inspiration for this deck. I love her. I love her artwork, I love her discipline set, I only wish she had a special ability or maybe a +1 bleed or something. Still, she's got POT and pro and is only a 5-cap, so she comes out early and fits nicely into my 0 stealth "I dare you to block" / "I dare you to try to bleed me" plan. So what do you think? I've got a bunch of Master cards that I included because they're just kinda staple / powerful cards, but I'm open to suggestions. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

Your Crypt doesn't look too bad overall, but G3-4 Gangrel anti-tribu are also not exactly hot commodities. you could probably condense this down to 6-7 vampires from 11, and hit the minimum of 12 vampires in your crypt. Look to maximize what disciplines are the most important to get off It looks like you want to run a bruise/bleed deck; you want to hit hard, and for Agg. Bruise/Bleed can be super fun to play, but your bleed package is almost non-existent. Consider Laptop Computers or Camera Phones for permanent bleed bonuses. You're going to need to bleed for 2-3 consistently with each of your minions, and lunge for 5-6 when needed. Archon investigation is absolutely a thing (I played two in the finals at the last Temple-con), but is really meta dependent. Potence and Protean are generally not good at Bleeding. Though there are a few Anarch cards that could be interesting to use. But 3 Computer Hackings ain't gonna cut it. You've got no real way to do pool damage to your prey consistently. Consider Army of Rats: if you get it out early and your prey ignores it, you can burn 4-5 pool easily; but the real strength is forcing your prey to choose between taking an action to do what it wants, or taking an action to burn Army of Rats. unless they're packing stealth, you can easily block and hopefully torpor or even burn the minion in combat. Taking Actions is the best way to get blocked and into combat. Consider adding 5-9 Computer Hacking if nothing else. Speaking of Combat, Potence is great for dishing out the pain, but you didn't include any increased strength, torn signposts, or even melee weapons. If you only plan on making one strike, you really should make it count. Protean is expensive, and paying two blood to swing for five Agg is on the high side, especially since you could play Torn Signpost and/or increased strength to bump those numbers up. Honestly, Torn Signpost and Claws is probably more efficient of a combo. I see you've got Immortal Grapple, and boy howdy is that a good thing, because Strike: Combat Ends or even a humble Strike: Dodge will ruin your day. There is a very glaring flaw in your combat module: What on earth are you going to do to a deck that packs Fortitude? "Prevent all damage from the opposing minion's strike" is pretty common on damage prevention cards. You'll also fold to Celerity Guns, as they'll probably. Have way more maneuvers than you'll be able to generate. On the other side, you're going to find that decks that don't want to be in combat will have ways of staying outside your Hand's reach. For Reactions, Forced Awakening is probably better if you are actually trying to block. At best you've got +2 intercept, and in very specific cases +3 intercept. You'll catch casual stealth but serious stealth will leave you behind. Also, you don't have much in the way of vote defense. Consider delaying tactics. Last but not least, your Master card selection is all over the place. Why only one copy of Ashur Tablets? is it your hope that you'll have opponents bringing more copies and you'll be able to snipe them away? Ashur Tablets are popular, but they're not Pentex Subversion levels of popular. I don't really think this strategy is viable, if that's what you're going for. I'm not sure where you're going with the Major Boon either. You've got some solid choices and a number of Trifles, but three Villeins, a Hunting Ground, and Dreams of the Sphinx isn't much in the way of blood management. Honestly, I'd use Minion Taps, as you're not really going for MMPA. I'd also throw in some Blood Dolls (or Vessels if you're feeling cheeky). Also, I'm utterly shocked you didn't include Fame in your master selections, as part of your plan seems to be to throw aggravated damage. all-in-all, i feel that you've got a solid concept, but given the depth of the card pool and your lack of experience in playing the game, you're making several sub-optimal choices. I'd be interested in exchanging further contact info, so that we might be able to arrange a game on Lackey, or depending on geography, in person. As a follow-up I'll put together a Bruise/bleed deck using potence and protean and we can compare notes.

> self wrote: > > Why only one copy of Ashur Tablets? is it your hope that you'll have opponents bringing more copies and you'll be able to snipe them away? Ashur Tablets are popular, but they're not Pentex Subversion levels of popular. I don't really think this strategy is viable > Read the cardtext from Ashur Tablets again please. This is not how it work. Maxime Socroun, 3200321

Deck Name: POT/PRO bruise bleed Author: Christopher Malec Description: Crypt (12 cards; Capacity min=4 max=11 avg=7.4) ================== 1x Hardestadt 11 cel pro DOM FOR POT PRE Ventrue:4 3x Henry Taylor 6 cel pre pro POT Brujah antitribu:3 3x Adana de Sforza 11 aus CEL OBF POT PRE PRO Brujah:4 2x Steve Booth 5 pot pre pro CEL Brujah:3 3x Alessandro Garcia 4 pot pre pro Brujah antitribu:4 Library: 80 cards Master (17 cards) ================== 3x Fame 2x Giant's Blood 2x Minion Tap 2x Protean 4x Zillah's Valley 2x Blood Doll 2x Dreams of the Sphinx Action (15 cards) ================== 2x Shadow of the Beast 10x Show of Force 3x Dream World Action Modifier (9 cards) ================== 9x Iron Glare Combat (22 cards) ================== 6x Form of Mist 2x Form of the Ghost 2x Fractured Armament 6x Torn Signpost 6x Claws of the Dead Equipment (5 cards) ================== 2x Heart of Nizchetus 3x Laptop Computer Reaction (12 cards) ================== 3x Eyes of the Beast 4x Forced Awakening 3x Sonar 2x Delaying Tactics

> Ezra wrote: > > > self wrote: > > > > Why only one copy of Ashur Tablets? is it your hope that you'll have opponents bringing more copies and you'll be able to snipe them away? Ashur Tablets are popular, but they're not Pentex Subversion levels of popular. I don't really think this strategy is viable > > > Read the cardtext from Ashur Tablets again please. This is not how it work. > you're right. it's worse than that: > > Ashur wrote: > Put this card in play. If you control three copies, remove all copies in play (even controlled by other Methuselahs) from the game to gain 3 pool and choose up to thirteen cards from your ash heap. Move one of those cards to your hand and shuffle the others into your library. > so there's literally no reason to include only one in a deck.

If you have never built a deck before I would start by playing a precon or using someone else's deck to get a feel for what goes in them. Efficiency is a big deal in VTES, so sticking to smaller capacity vampires with one or two disciplines in common, preferably in-clan like potence and presence, can reduce what you need to pay to field your minions. As currently constructed you will get around 2 minions in play and largely be ignored by people with strike: combat ends. You may stop your predator, but that would mostly leave your prey with a stronger hand. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

My analysis : > LivesByProxy wrote: > > Crypt (14 cards; Capacity min=3 max=9 avg=6.454545) > ================== > 2x Henry Taylor | 6 cel pre pro POT | Brujah antitribu:3 > 1x Icarus, The Manchurian | 7 ani for pro OBF POT | Nosferatu antitribu:4 > 2x Nails | 5 ani obf pro POT | Nosferatu antitribu:4 > 1x Ryder | 7 ani pot FOR PRO | Gangrel:4 > 1x Baron Dieudonne | 9 ANI OBF POT PRO | Nosferatu:4 > 1x Skryta Zyleta | 5 obf pot pro CEL | Gangrel antitribu:3 > 1x Soldat | 7 cel dom obf POT PRO | Gangrel antitribu:3 > 2x Bill Butler | 3 pot pro | Gangrel antitribu:4 > 1x Black Annis | 9 ani pro OBF POT | Nosferatu antitribu:4 > 1x Aeron | 9 aus pro ANI OBF POT | Nosferatu antitribu:3 > 1x Alessandro Garcia | 4 pot pre pro | Brujah antitribu:4 > First of all, you can't decently bring out all your crypt, your pool gain is not enough. So there's no point in playing 14 vampires. You should focus on some vampires that fit very well in your deck: you talk a lot of Baron Dieudonné, you should include at least 3 copies of him in the deck. Since you play Wider View, you'll be able to ditch extra copies. Since you're using a POT PRO strategy, remove the mid-cap vampires that don't have at least one of those disciplines at superior like Skryta. > LivesByProxy wrote: > Master (16 cards) > It looks like you want to play all the master cards that you find cool. But playing just one Brainwash is not going to make it for instance. You should focus first on a pool module: Blood Dolls or Vessels, Villeins and the like. Dieudonné, Black Annis, Aeron... are 9 cap, so a +1 transfer would be great not to loose an extra turn (I'm thinking of Dreams of the Sphinx, Powerbase: Montreal etc.) 1x Arcanum Chapterhouse, Alexandria => crappy card, Hunting Grounds are not frequent, and even if you're prey plays a HG, the Chapterhouse can be burned as a action. 1x Major Boon => not a bad card, but it's not enough: you should also play some Archon Investigation 1x Momentum's Edge => not in that deck, you're not speedy enough to have a VP quickly, so you'll probably discard it during the game 1x Not to Be => what event is bothersome for you? if there is no real threat, don't play Not to Be. And if there's one, play Uncoiling that works retroactively. 1x Ashur Tablets => doesn't work 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion => good choice since you don't play stealth but wakes and intercept to some extent 1x Powerbase: Montreal => you could play one more copy, alongside Dreams of the Sphinx 1x Shanty Town Hunting Ground => it would be more useful with Blood Doll or Vessel 3x Villein => it's either too much, or not enough. You can't rely on those Villein to get your pool back quickly 1x Wash => why not, but you should focus on a good master module first 1x Wider View => if you plan to play multiple copies of the vampires you want to draw in priority (which I suggest) 1x Brainwash => useless in this deck, and in this quantity 1x Direct Intervention => why not, but you should focus on a good master module first 1x Dreams of the Sphinx You need at least 1 more > LivesByProxy wrote: > Action (9 cards) > ================== > 3x Ambush > 3x Bum's Rush > 3x Computer Hacking > I can't see how you regularily bleed for 3 with such an action module. What is likely to happen is: you draw 2 Bum's in the game, maybe 1 Computer Hacking, then your hand is full of combat cards, and noone is blocking you. Play at least some bleed equipment, or some very good Sabbat card such as Abbot. > LivesByProxy wrote: > Combat (27 cards) > ================== > 4x Gleam of Red Eyes > 3x Immortal Grapple > 7x Pushing the Limit > 4x Slam > 3x Wolf Claws > 3x Claws of the Dead > 3x Disarm > It costs too much blood. You could do the same with Torn. More Grapple is necessary. Claws of the Dead provide the maneuver, so Gleam of Red Eyes and Slam are not really necessary. The real question is: what do you want to do in combat? 1 aggravated to send the vampire to torpor? A lot of aggravated to burn the vampire outright? How do you get your blood back? Amaranth? Taste? > LivesByProxy wrote: > Reaction (18 cards) > ================== > 6x Eyes of the Beast > 3x Forced Awakening > 4x On the Qui Vive > 2x Sonar > 3x Wake with Evening's Freshness > That's a lot of wakes but little intercept. That's not a bad thing, but consider playing Under Siege, Marked Territory (based on your crypt)... Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> brandonsantacruz wrote: > Iusing someone else's deck to get a feel for what goes in them. > So much this! Now that you've tried your hand in building a deck of your own check what other people did with their decks. Preferably the ones that were at least somewhat successful, so I'd check the entries at TWDA. www.vekn.fr/decks/twd.htm Playing with your own deck first and then another game with one copies from TWDA might be a good choice too. You know, to experience the difference first hand... Also notice that getting the cards is easy; just proxy them. When you get your deck nailed down, then it might be the time to start scrounging the needed cards. Finnish Politics!

I would also recommend a read through some deckbuilding blogs such as VTES one. vtesone.wordpress.com/decks/deck-archetypes/ (edit: more up-to-date link) The articles are pretty old, but thats fine since VTES decks still work the same way as they did when they first came out. Reading these articles gives you an idea about the principles and strategies VTES decks are built on. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

@ Self Biased: Thanks for the feedback. Is there a way to PM you? I don't see one. I also completely misread the Ashur Tablets . @ Brandon: Unfortunately, there are very few weenies with pot and pro, so it's really slim pickings, even if the grouping rule were ignored. @ Ankha: So I need more pool manipulation cards, and I need to tune Masters, Actions, Combats, and my Crypt, got it. My plan with combat was to deal enough agg damage to burn smaller vamps and torp the bigger ones so that they either 1) rescue themselves from torpor and be extremely low on blood; 2) force my prey / predator to waste a ready minion's action to rescue their vamp from torpor. And my hope was that by being so threatening in combat I make unblocked bleeds since no one would risk combat with me. @ Lonkka: I've looked at the TWD archive, and what struck me was how many 1x Master cards were included in each deck. I totally underestimated the pool manipulation cards though. @ BloodArtist: I've actually read probably everything on that site (or 80% of it). The deck archetypes are really neat to read about, but I was disappointed that the only Rush Combat decks were Tupdog, Cel Gun, and Weenie Animals. That's why I was inspired to make a Pot/Pro deck - I thought it would be somewhat unique. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > @ Lonkka: I've looked at the TWD archive, and what struck me was how many 1x Master cards were included in each deck. I totally underestimated the pool manipulation cards though. > Pool gain is very important for basically any deck. There are various of ways to do it, some cards work better together than others. For example, you could run blood dolls/vessels both to gain blood via your vampires (hunting ground, taste of vitae to refill them with blood) or give them blood when combat puts them in low blood. Another way to both speed up getting vampires to play and gain pool in later game is having cards that move blood to vampires in your uncontrolled region (powerbase: montreal, clan-specific cards like Nosferatu kingdom ) You can tap nos kingdom to put blood to a !nos in your uncontrolled region, then use transfers to move this blood to your pool. If you make bringing vampires to play "cheaper" in some way, its basically same thing as gaining pool. Also your deck has no taste of vitaes. Your vampires will probably struggle to live through a few rounds of combat with any other deck with combat cards in it, as grapple combat means you will be at close range and thus take hits from your opponents. > @ BloodArtist: I've actually read probably everything on that site (or 80% of it). The deck archetypes are really neat to read about, but I was disappointed that the only Rush Combat decks were Tupdog, Cel Gun, and Weenie Animals. That's why I was inspired to make a Pot/Pro deck - I thought it would be somewhat unique. > The site lists the most common archetypes - there are numerous ways to build combat decks . You are free to try your thing, although in my opinion protean combat somewhat overlaps potence combat. Decks usually employ one or the other. Either you hit for a lot or you hit aggro damage. At the very least I recommend you replace some pushing the limits with taste of vitaes. Also if you want rush combat deck, you probably have too few rushes.. Most combat decks supplement ousting with cards that damage your prey via combat, such as dragonbound , tension in the ranks , etc. I've found that fame is one of the best options for rush combat. ps. I'm not a fan of dragonbound myself. It has a tendency to oust its owner and -handsize is a HUGE issue for combat decks. I also recommend you replace computer hackings with some kind of permanent +bleed. Such as laptop computer or camera phone. Three bleed action cards aren't gonna get anywhere I'm afraid. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

I'm looking into what bleed bonuses I get as we speak. I'm wondering what Self Biased meant when he said: "G3-4 Gangrel anti-tribu are also not exactly hot commodities." Anyone care to explain? Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

The !gangrel in that group aren't very efficient, I think that's what he means. If you like !gangrel, how about CEL PRO rather than POT PRO? Ian Lee won a tournament with this CEL PRO deck: www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=9892 You could even take out some of the mercury's arrow in favor of claws of the dead. Just to be clear, neither POT PRO or CEL PRO is a great discipline combo in this game, but it can work. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

I would recommend NOT to try to build a deck without understanding, how the game works. But everybody are found of it as it seems. So some gidelines I find useful. 85 cards top, better 80. Deck should be able to survive 12 stealth 3 bleeds of 3. Deck should be able to make 36 pool damage to your prey in reasonable time (game may end in 12 turns or maybe earlier). Deck should be able to work when nobody is blocking you - not choke on stealth or combat cards. There are countless other important blocks, but this 3, I think, will greatly help to make something reasonable. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > I would recommend NOT to try to build a deck without understanding, how the game works. > > But everybody are found of it as it seems. > To quote Aristotle: "What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing." I think making a deck and then playing with it speeds up one's understanding of the game a lot. You may fail to win, but you will understand a lot about what your deck needs to do. To soften the landing I'd recommend netdecking ie. copying a deck from the TWD, but making your own deck is fine. I made my decks myself from day one. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

My experience is that bad player with a good(build by good players) deck can learn to play, while bad player with a bad deck will just suffer defeats pointlessly. NC Russia

May I ask what the reason you chose this discipline combination is? I recall my first few decks outside of stealth bleed and Celerity guns, I went WAY off the beaten path. I mean kindred spirits malks with thaum combat for no apparent reason out there. But, bruise and bleed is a frustrating archtype to learn on. You seem to be comfortable taking a large amount of input as you learn, so I would recommend any bruise n bleed as a first deck use something other than protean. I mean, there are options, but if you aren't attached to these skills life is easier. With that combo, most vamps (Sergei the eye, Baron d, black annis, Icarus,etc) are better for other decks, notably walls or other rush stuff based in animalism. I found myself more interested in styles where I stayed in the game long enough to get vps, which in bruise n bleed needs solid pool defense (typically in some combination of bleed reduction, pool gain, straight blocking, bounce, or cards supporting these outlets). So, if it's the bruise n bleed idea you like, I STRONGLY recommend using Bleed and bounce with Dom, grapple, hit harder, rip off arms with pot, prevent and make bleeds unlockable with fortitude. Other fun quirks include graverob, potential multiact, stealth from bonding, etc. Crypt options are bountiful for low monetary cost and pool cost in groups 2-3 and 3-4, and the only thing not super cheap would be daring the dawn/day op, sill under $3usd. As a combination pot and pro overlap (as mentioned) and protean is at odds with it's self. It's a support discipline, has the best S:CE in the game (Earth meld, form of mist) and has like 300 different cards that give you agg hands for 1+blood cost. It also gives stealth reliably, and manuevers, and even votes, but pairing with not Celerity removes it's multiact, and it's damage preventing cards can't deal with 1 single agg cost effectively. So, are you really set on potence and protean bruise n bleed?

Blooded Sand's Deck building methodology: There are a few questions you have to answer. In order of importance How will I oust my prey, and the next prey, and the third prey? Once you have three ousts, you win. how will I farm (gain pool) as no farm means i die or cannot afford resources. How do I survive my predator? If you cannot succinctly answer those three questions, your deck needs to be redesigned, generally. Remember, unusual strategies are only bad if they don't follow the 3 above guidelines. I have a deck that's main farm is Diversity of all things. So go look at your deck through those three lenses, then come back and retry it. Lastly, and I cannot stress this enough, MAKE NOTES AND ITERATE YOUR DECK! My Shalmath deck is currently in it's 26th iteration, Al-Munthatir is at 32, Hektor and friends is at something stupid like major revision 3, iteration 28. Think it is about the 70th version of that deck. The first versions? Got destroyed due to a lack in my deck. I made notes, added counters, and updated. Rinse, repeat.

@Elotar: What about a good player with a bad deck? @ReverendRevolver: I just really liked the idea of hitting for tons of agg damage. I'm kind of sad and puzzled that the Gangrel don't have Potence innately, but I'm of the opinion that VTM should've given each clan 4-5 core disciplines and not just 3. Or that the Protean cards that grant Potence-like effects be much better. And that +bleed would be more common across more disciplines. @ Blooded Sand: I will work on it. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > @Elotar: What about a good player with a bad deck? > A good player will be able to play with most anything! For example, I've seen and heard Ben Peal play a starter or two starters mashed together and play a mean game. Tube (Vuokko) often plays with decks that don't really contain much anything special but most often manages to come on top. Ability to read the game, and players, is also a huge factor. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > > > LivesByProxy wrote: > > @Elotar: What about a good player with a bad deck? > > > A good player will be able to play with most anything! > > For example, I've seen and heard Ben Peal play a starter or two starters mashed together and play a mean game. > > Tube (Vuokko) often plays with decks that don't really contain much anything special but most often manages to come on top. > > Ability to read the game, and players, is also a huge factor. > I have to second this. Here in Helsinki we have hall of famer Otso Saariluoma, who in my opinion is one of those people who can win a tournament with a ham sandwich. Lately he has been in a habit of randomly showing up to our weekly games without any decks, loaning somebodys deck and then usually sweeping the table. How do people like him do it, is a mystery to me. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> LivesByProxy wrote: > @Elotar: What about a good player with a bad deck? > > @ReverendRevolver: I just really liked the idea of hitting for tons of agg damage. I'm kind of sad and puzzled that the Gangrel don't have Potence innately, but I'm of the opinion that VTM should've given each clan 4-5 core disciplines and not just 3. Or that the Protean cards that grant Potence-like effects be much better. And that +bleed would be more common across more disciplines. > > @ Blooded Sand: I will work on it. > Re: doing tons of agg damage, you can do that with potence: Burning Wrath Combat 3 Blood [pot] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage, aggravated. [POT] Strike: hand strike at +2 damage, aggravated. If you can recoup the blood, the card does exactly what you want. Toss in Torn Signpost and/or Increased Strength and you are doing 5 agg, plus any other bonuses (target vitals, innate + strength). Combine this with Brujah/!Brujah's PRE and you have a solid bruise/bleed combo. I would be happy to help you build that deck, if you are so inclined. !Gangrel and Gangrel don't have potence because it was not one of their disciplines in Vampire the Masquerade, which this card game is based on. Some groupings may have some extra potence, but in general you can count on ANI CEL FOR OBF PRO, none of which are good bleed disciplines and none are potence. That's not to say that they are bad at combat or bleeding, but the route you are trying for is not recommended. Gangrel/!Gangrel with dominate is a classic, tournament winning deck. Gangrel toolbox is, too. Both rely on things that Gangrel can actually do. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

Here's something along the lines of what I might start with ... then want to change for reasons mentioned below. Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 16, Max: 28, Avg: 5.5) 1 Alessandro Garcia pot pre pro 4 Brujah Antitribu 1 Bill Butler pot pro 3 Gangrel Antitribu 2 Henry Taylor cel pre pro POT6 Brujah Antitribu 2 Icarus ani for pro OBF POT7 Nosferatu Antitribu 2 Nails ani obf pro POT5 Nosferatu Antitribu 1 Skryta Zyleta obf pot pro CEL5 Gangrel Antitribu 2 Soldat cel dom obf POT PRO7 Gangrel Antitribu 1 Tabitha Fisk obt pot pro 4 Lasombra Library: (80 cards) Master (17 cards) 1 Channel 10 1 Depravity 2 Fame 1 Hungry Coyote, The 4 Minion Tap 2 Potence 2 Protean 1 Tension in the Ranks 3 Vessel Action (7 cards) 2 Abbot 2 Bum`s Rush 1 Games of Instinct 2 Harass Reaction (13 cards) 4 Eyes of the Beast 2 Forced Awakening 5 On the Qui Vive 2 Sonar Combat (38 cards) 3 Claws of the Dead 5 Flesh of Marble 3 Gleam of Red Eyes 7 Immortal Grapple 3 Mighty Grapple 2 Slam 4 Taste of Vitae 8 Torn Signpost 3 Wolf Claws Ally (1 cards) 1 Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter) Retainer (1 cards) 1 Mr. Winthrop Equipment (3 cards) 1 Camera Phone 2 Sport Bike If all you want to do is aggpunch folks, then this is tolerable. It has awful ousting power, so would look for either more permableed at the expense of _?? Or, change crypt for more Dominate to go with Soldat and play with better cards. The other thing I don't like about the crypt is that it's a titleless crypt that doesn't make much use of Sabbatdom. Having titles and the ability to torpor/burn votey types would make for better vote defense. Whenever I have titleless crypts, I wonder about going anarch, but I did drop some non-Sabbies so that the crypt was pointlessly pure. Field Training would be a way to upgrade disciplines if the anarch route. Also, blood is going to be a problem. Few Tastes, not much of a plan for refill. Actually, Giant's Blood would be obvious to include as a two way play. I don't know. The deck is already fat. Now, I did assume Preternatural Strength wasn't available. If it is, then the deck can increasingly permasize to get leaner. Anyway, this is just a quick draft of something along the lines of what you were looking for that is more my speed. For tournament play, might want to just go with Pot/Dom which is rather common, with a splash of Pro in the crypt or with skill cards if Pro is that necessary. Traveller Card Game

@ Brandon: I see now that relying on Protean for agg damage is kinda unnecessary, but I thought Burning Wrath was a bit too expensive. :/ I was actually reworking my crypt to make use of OBF Spying Mission and looking at some Camera Phones, Deep Songs and Army of Rats (a fair number of my guys have animalism), and Guarded Rubric - I've got some Black Hand vamps, notably my girl Nails <3 My biggest problem besides finding the right balance / mix of cards, is that I want to play certain clans, but those clans don't have really have the disciplines necessary for the strategy I wanted to implement, on top of the Grouping rule making things more constrained. :[ @ ICL: I really like Preternatural Strength, but since no one else mentioned it as an option, I kinda assumed it was bad. I like it in theory though. Also, what is the difference between Qui Vive, Evening's Freshness, and Forced Awakening? The differences seem superfluous at best. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

Once upon a time, there was just WWEF, and it was the best card in the game. It was ubiquitous for the obvious reason that nothing came close to doing what it did. Then, Forced Awakening appeared and people would actually use it with bleed bounce and burn an extra blood because those were the two options. For a long, long time Wake and Forced were played. Wake's bestness waned even back when it didn't have much serious competition. Then, On the Qui Vive was printed. It is scary how much better OtQV is than Wake, even though the do not replace until untap restriction existed long before OtQV came into being. Because OtQV has a limitation, even if it's not as important in this sort of deck as it would be in a superstar deck (in which case, your Matasuntha/Goratrix/whoever is likely running Eyes of Argus), there are reasons to have other wake effects. Then, if you are running Baali or Aksinya or whatever, Eluding the Arms of Morpheus starts looking more attractive (or Animalism plays). I still play Wake because I remember when it wasn't inferior to another card and I rely heavily on being tapped after I hunt, but it's not nearly as exciting, where Forced Awakening isn't likely to hurt a lot in this bounceless deck, though FA isn't going to work with Carlton on the off chance you control him. Now, my last TWD did run a Fillip, but I wouldn't put much stock in that (probably want to ignore all of my tournament winning decks, anyway, if you want to build decks people think are good). Traveller Card Game

> LivesByProxy wrote: > My biggest problem besides finding the right balance / mix of cards, is that I want to play certain clans, but those clans don't have really have the disciplines necessary for the strategy I wanted to implement, on top of the Grouping rule making things more constrained. > The game tends towards either: do a lot of normal damage, or do a bit of aggravated damage. It isn't impossible to do lots of aggravated damage, but it generally requires more effort - and often unnecessary effort. The way the aggravated damage rules work, doing 4 normal and 1 agg damage at the same time is almost as good as doing 5 agg damage at once.(*) When handling damage that is dealt at the same time, the normal damage is handled first - using up blood, then sending you to torpor (wounding you) when you hit zero. Then the agg damage comes after. So if, for example, I have 2 blood and you hit me for 4 normal damage and 1 agg damage: - The first two points of normal damage take me to zero blood. - The third point of normal damage, I have no blood, so I can't heal it, so I go to torpor (wounded). - The fourth point of normal damage is superfluous: I have no blood, and I'm already going to torpor. - The point of agg damage comes along. I am already wounded (going to torpor), so I have to burn a blood to prevent destruction. I have no blood, so I burn. So you don't always have to stack up a lot of agg damage on the strike, and some of the options for that are difficult or expensive. Not playing Potence, you lose out on the option of Immortal Grapple (which is annoying!). However, the way combat works is that your cards like Claws of the Dead, Wolf Claws etc. can all be played after both strikes are declared but before you move into strike resolution. So if you're using cards like those, you can wait to play them until after you know if your opponent is playing Strike: Combat Ends or Dodge etc. This isn't perfect, but it is better than wasting the blood in advance and only then finding out it's a waste. (You can still pay the blood and cycle the card, if you want.) If you play with Gangrel or Gangrel antitribu with Animalism/Protean, you have the option of tossing in Carrion Crows, which is generally considered very good. It's only one per combat, but doing 2R damage (with ANI) is really handy - and the damage resolves at the same time as your strike. Target Head and Target Vitals are both free, and both allow you to get extra damage on the strike., Yes, your opponent can discard a combat card(s) to get rid of them (varies depending on the card), but also very useful. Potentially works whether you play Ani Gangrel/!Gangrel, or City !Gangrel. If going the Ani route, you could toss in a few Scorpion Stings - it's not the best card on the planet, but people not knowing if they can survive with 2 blood or 3 blood is interesting. Retainers are a possibility, but require some effort and careful blood/pool management, and they also take up actions - or require the use of Pack Alpha. Dog Pack is playable for anti-Strike: Combat Ends, but is expensive. Some decks make use of some of the damage retainers, although Target cards are probably simpler and more efficient to use, at least early on. For anti-S:CE, City !Gangrel have Celerity where Psyche! is an option, though it's tricky to use well - you may be throwing down set-up cards in combat which don't persist into the new combat from Psyche! Useful when playing with guns, though. (*) There are some differences, such as if you're facing someone who has damage prevention cards that only affect non-aggravated damage, and that sort of thing. Interesting, does happen, but not generally the major focus of deck design.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > @ Brandon: I see now that relying on Protean for agg damage is kinda unnecessary, but I thought Burning Wrath was a bit too expensive. :/ I was actually reworking my crypt to make use of OBF Spying Mission and looking at some Camera Phones, Deep Songs and Army of Rats (a fair number of my guys have animalism), and Guarded Rubric - I've got some Black Hand vamps, notably my girl Nails <3 > Relying on aggro damage with a ton of +strength from potence AT THE SAME TIME is unnecessary. Like has been said before, these things overlap for no particualrly good reason. The bigger issues in my opinion for your deck in no particular order are: 1. ) how do your minions survive combat. Iimagine if enemy can ALSO play claws of the dead, so a 2-cap can torporize your vampire no matter how much strength he has.. 2.) how do your vampires get the blood back if they go low 3.) how do you oust. > @ ICL: I really like Preternatural Strength, but since no one else mentioned it as an option, I kinda assumed it was bad. I like it in theory though. > Preternatural strength isn't bad, but you have to waste an action for getting it. > Also, what is the difference between Qui Vive, Evening's Freshness, and Forced Awakening? The differences seem superfluous at best. > Differences: -Qui vive is probably best, but one minion can only play one between your turns. So if you use it once, you cannot use another until your next turn. This makes a difference if you want to block multiple actions with same minion. But if you have no better options from discipline cards, qui vive is probably best of these options. Imagine that you might for example want to cycle wakes off your hand during opponents actions even when you have no intention of actually blocking. Qui Vive works on ALLIES (it says minion rather than vampire), the other two only work with vampires. With Qui Vive you can wake your war ghoul to block for example (if you had one). - Wake with evenings freshness is pretty weak, because it doesn't replace itself for combat (or intercept) cards when you are blocking. Also cycling them off your hand during opponents actions when you don't actually care about blocking doesn't work well since wwef isn't replaced until your untap. Lack of immadiate replacement makes wwef REALLY poor choice for a combat wall in my opinion. - Forced awakening replaces itself immediately, is not restricted to one per turn the way Qui vive is, but you have to pay pool if you don't block; which makes it weaker choice for decks that aim to bounce bleeds rather than block. Even when you want to block, actually managing to block actions in this game is non-trivial due to huge amount of stealth and block fails. If you play gangrel etc animalism minions, you should consider at least in some cases Sense the savage way . Its a pretty good if you want to block and have minions that are large enough and have animalism. It can also be played for intercept if you are already untapped (one minion cannot use two same reactions during same action) . ps. Regarding ICL's suggestion, I really recommend you change all wolf claws into claws of the dead. The maneuver is WAY more important than press, especially if you hit aggro damage (combat ends if opponent is in torpor so press is meaningless) and already are using immortal grapples (which provide a press). Immortal grapple does zip if you aren't close. You WILL need maneuvers to ensure you are close. Even if you don't aim to use claws for maneuvers, its really good to have a backup plan. You wan't to use immortal grapple as much as possible, since decks you really want to hit hard will have combat ends coming out of their ears. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

As stated already, there are quite few reasons not to use potence, and a billion to use it. I once punched apalonious at 2 blood for 5 agg with ferox (signpost (3) plus slam (5) and had raking talons) . As funny as it is, there are more efficient ways to burn a minion outright. I recommend muaziz and Ariadne, due to ability to sling agg then amaranth. The added efficiency is needed, since the table reacts quite heinously to a deck that's minion removal strategy burns 11 caps outright. Just hitting for 5+agg routinely isn't a hard setup (hektor, preturnatural strength, heroic might, you're there, or enkidu or matusuntha rush with uncontrollable rage and you're there) but mathematically you spend 2 blood or more to burn something, needing at least 1 card plus in combat ways to deliver the payload of ouch, when either of the archons net you all that minions bloodl with less setup. I was one of those players early on who sat quietly with a malk wall until everyone was on 1-2 beads a vamp, then eagles sighted my prey and had Anatole pull out a flamethrower, so I get the satisfaction of completely removing a reasource , and before you've played a bit you feel like vamps you put in the dirt always pop back up so ashing them is better, but once you play a bit you'll get how combat evenly depleting resources and intimidating cross table sis more efficient, since it keeps your minions healthier via taste and doesn't put all your resources into leaving a flaming crater one time. Speaking of, if this is the sensation you're after, I did list this deck out a bit ago that I haven't built yet called "leave a flaming crater" www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=26665

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > As stated already, there are quite few reasons not to use potence, and a billion to use it. > Depends if you can prevent aggro damage or not > Just hitting for 5+agg routinely isn't a hard setup (hektor, preturnatural strength, heroic might, you're there, or enkidu or matusuntha rush with uncontrollable rage and you're there) > note: Matasuntha blur and claws of the dead: Hit 3+3 normal damage and 3 aggro for the last strike. This tends to take care of things. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Yes. Yes it does. The linked deck packs this. But after I posted the link I remembered being stupid tired when I listed that deck and the crypt is inconsistent and I did dumb things like include fueled by heart's blood and omitted cog. I've also seen Hardestadt tear a signpost and grapple before hitting for 9 agg with claws and island of yairos. I've had my Marge khan hit by lazvernious for 5 agg and only had a soak in hand. There are| certainly delivery systems for flaming fists of death that kill anything without 10 blood and outright, but being in decks that use that as part of the strategy "I could if I wanted to..." Instead of that being what the deck does is key. Matusuntha/Enkidu is the best balance for not wasting the payload thanks to already running Earth meld and psyche, it packs enough psyche to exhaust the opposing Methuselahs hand and knock off beads. It's going to crush key minions via rush/blocks, has the option to enforce statements like "if jephta and Keith go forward and are tapped they live, otherwise they die. Oh, and if one bounces, they die. And ...." But it can also reduce an owain that's keeping your pretty afloat to Ash, while doing rushes that can be tasted to refill. Any deck that does what lives by proxy says is what he wants it to do has to be able to do other things, or you get a deck that does with style and cool stories. I've made those decks, you eventually want to win once you've collected enough "losing with style" points. (True faith cock Robinaka holy cockdeck, voting grotesques, jozz and Reiner with tons of skill cards, mata Hari and 2 caps with hunting ground farm...you eventually get tired of losing before doing something cool and build other decks that use good cards to do something that wins but isn't as commonplace.) I have certain reservations about combat (needing damage prevent and/ormultiact if any vampire exceeds 4cap leads to me using fortitude in every Nosferatu build) but I've played decks to know these are important to not losing often. If you get some games in, things click faster.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > I did list this deck out a bit ago that I haven't built yet called "leave a flaming crater" > > www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=26665 > You appropriated a name there matey. The classic flaming crater is this: 85xIncreased strength 1xBurning Wrath 3xFake out 1xImmortal Grapple One single combat, one single hit, but damn that is a big crater. Kinda explains the weakness of the archetype quite accurately as well

> Blooded wrote: > One single combat, one single hit, but damn that is a big crater. Kinda explains the weakness of the archetype quite accurately as well > Especially when this is still very vulnerable to opponent just playing Skin of Steel... Pay one to prevent all. Finnish Politics!

So this is my 2nd attempt: Deck Name: !Nos - Dieudonne Goes Slumming w/Nails (Or, Who Needs Guns?) Author: LivesByProxy Description: This deck is probably still terrible, but I've always been fond of the Gangrel and Nosferatu, and the !Nos are underdogs, so I like them for that reason. The strategy is to bleed / oust with Spying Missions and Army of Rats. I've also opted for something like the Celerity Guns but with Quick Meld for Maneuvers, and Thrown Sewer Lid for Strikes. So Bleed for 1 and if they don't block, use Spying Mission, and if they do block, throw 2x Sewer Lids at their face before going in for punches. "But what about For damage prevention or S:CE or Dodge?" Well... I'm going to hope to intuition and timing and reading my prey help me avoid those. I've got some recursion and pool gain with the Ashur Tablets, and some vote protection with my few titled vamps... not that it's much. Crypt (12 cards; Capacity min=5 max=9 avg=7.571429) ================== 2x Henry Taylor 6 cel pre pro POT Brujah antitribu:3 2x Icarus, The Manchurian 7 ani for pro OBF POT Nosferatu antitribu:4 2x Mateusz Gryzbowsky 8 ANI OBF POT Nosferatu antitribu:3 2x Nails 5 ani obf pro POT Nosferatu antitribu:4 1x Baron Dieudonne 9 ANI OBF POT PRO Nosferatu:4 1x Black Annis 9 ani pro OBF POT Nosferatu antitribu:4 2x Aeron 9 aus pro ANI OBF POT Nosferatu antitribu:3 Library: 90 cards Master (18 cards) ================== 2x Information Network 2x Nosferatu Kingdom 9x Ashur Tablets 2x Powerbase: Montreal 3x Blood Doll Action (3 cards) ================== 3x Army of Rats Action Modifier (11 cards) ================== 11x Spying Mission Combat (39 cards) ================== 6x Growing Fury 10x Quick Meld 7x Target Vitals 4x Taste of Vitae 12x Thrown Sewer Lid Reaction (19 cards) ================== 3x Eyes of the Beast 5x Forced Awakening 11x Instinctive Reaction Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

11 spying missions, 4 minions with OBF that actually make it worth it Toss ALL the spying missions, make em deep songs instead Also, wtf is henry taylor doing in there?

Uhm, not sure about this plan. Is your intention using spying mission for +bleed or just for stealth? You do know you cannot play same action modifier twice for the same action, right? So you cannot stealth with inf. spying mission and then play superior spying mission when bleed would be succesful. This is illegal. Because of this you definitely want a more varied stealth package. You would probably benefit more from bleeding with Deep song(or computer hacking) +1 bleed and using a more versatile stealth package. Deep songs unfortunately cost a bit money and you would want a large pile of them, but they are sooooo good, also giving the option of rushing vampires. Stealth package: Lost in crowds, swallowed by the night (for the maneuver), spying mission, elder impersonation. Army of rats are good. Combat is.... It can work, but since you basically require a combo of cards in your hand for it to do anything, its not the best. I'd go for thrown gate and aim vitals and settle on one round of combat (since your main goal is just bleeding, combat is supportive. Also you have nothing against combat ends) You can also go for animalism combat, which is a staple in VTES. Carrion crows, a large pile of aid from bats. I had a inferior animalism weenie deck in which large number of minions bled with deep song and if they got blocked, hit opponents vitals with bats. ps. btw. In your 1st attempt deck, many of your vampires actually had protean, so you could've gone for immortal grapple + claws of the dead to counter act combat ends and hit aggro. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

There are 5 minions with OBF, and I did have the Master Obfuscate in here but I took it out. Henry Taylor was a hold over because I can't make up my mind about what I want to do. I want the !Nos to work, but I also want it to be a combat deck, because combat decks are 'bad'. I'm not sure which direction I should go though: Immortal Grapple + strength / damage boosters + agg damage, or long range Thrown Sewer Lids combat, or some sort of melee weapon equipment shenanigans. Is there a reason combat decks don't have better means to oust? I wouldn't want every discipline or clan get get a "conditioning" card, but there's Fame, Dragonbound, and Tension In The Ranks or Camera Phones / Laptop Computers. The !Nos also have Inside Dirt, which is really cool, but it seems like it requires a different kind of deck (not a combat deck). I'm also torn as to whether or not I should be an intercept wall combat deck, or a rush combat deck (with cards like Deep Song.) I also hate the Grouping rule. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

@ BloodArtist: I've got the rules down, if not the actual deck construction. My plan was to always play Spying Mission at superior. I bleed for 1: either they let it through and I play Spying Mission to bleed for 3 in the future; or, they block and we go to a very punishing combat for them. I don't know if it's *fast*, probably not, but I purposefully didn't include any actions besides Army of Rats because I don't have the stealth to make the actions succeed, and if you play a card, and it gets blocked, whether you win the combat or not, the card has no effect once your minion is blocked, correct? I'm tempted to try Animalism combat, but that's a common deck archetype and I'm trying to be creative. ;P Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > I want the !Nos to work, but I also want it to be a combat deck, because combat decks are 'bad'. I'm not sure which direction I should go though: > Combat decks aren't 'bad' but they are more difficult to make work because of the issue you touched: how to oust. > Is there a reason combat decks don't have better means to oust? I wouldn't want every discipline or clan get get a "conditioning" card, but there's Fame, Dragonbound, and Tension In The Ranks or Camera Phones / Laptop Computers. The !Nos also have Inside Dirt, which is really cool, but it seems like it requires a different kind of deck (not a combat deck). I'm also torn as to whether or not I should be an intercept wall combat deck, or a rush combat deck (with cards like Deep Song.) > Do you mean cards that are not dominate, presence or political actions have poor ousting power? Yeah, welcome to VTES where everyone is fine with dominate being OP. Options for combat deck oust: codex of edemic groundskeepers - If prey does not have ready minions, they don't have ready untapped minions. Unique, and thus can be contested. Fame - one of the best options for rush combat deck oust in my opinion. You can rush, torporize, rescue famous vampire from torpor against their will (nossies and gangrel could do this with stealth) and rush+torporize again for a second hit of 3 pool. Issues: its unique, and can be contested. I'd nearly always run two fames in my rush combat deck. Anarch revolts with some anarch converts in your crypt - If you rush preys minions away, they don't have anarchs and thus take full damage from anarch revolts. This is a pretty good option out of the "hurts everyone" cards, as players other than your prey can (and usually do) choose to go anarch instead of voting it away. Exception are pure vote decks who have only titled vampires. Its non-unique and spammable. Anarch converts also make your crypt "smaller". Problem: you have to dedicate several masterslots of your deck to it. Antediluvian awakening - hurts everyone but usually sticks. As in, its difficult to remove. Its unique but never contested. Problems: you need pool gain to counteract it. This is more of a supplementary oust mechanic rather than a main one. Tension in the ranks - Bad. Unique and non-spammable. Can shoot you in the leg if enemy is better at combat than you are. Does very little actual pool damage which is also heavily conditional. I consider this an extremely poor choice. Oh, and it can ALSO be removed relatively easily.. Dragonbound - When it works, its really strong, when it doesn't... it screws up your game. The absolutely worst part of this card is -handsize. Combat decks want to have as large handsize as possible because you often require multiple different cards in your hand to ensure victory in combat. The drawback is HUGE. However, its very strong when it actually works. If you run this, run minimum of 2 so you can discard dragonbound in the early game and only play it in late game where opponents minions are already in torpor and there is less need for combat. Yet another card that can shoot you in the leg if you lose combat. I refuse to put this in my decks because of the -handsize. Deep song - If you play nosferatu or gangrel with animalism, you can simply use same cards for both rushing and bleed. I consider this to be a really good card. Drawback: this card cannot rush allies. Theres not much room to get creative anymore. Mostly its about using a specific star vampire in a unique way, or a synergy between cards, or build a deck entirely around a specific rarely used card (like Whisker built a deck around 419 operation for last summer's ropecon tournament). Combat is pretty much done and dusted at this point I feel.. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Why is everyone fine with Dominate being the best bleeding and best bleed defense discipline? I remember I touched on this in my ReVamping VTES thread, but I don't remember your position. Also, to anyone who may be reading: What do you imagine 'bleeding' to be? It's said to be conceptually, "the efforts of your minion to undermine the power and influence of the target Methuselah. You might picture bleeding as paying bribes, changing bank records, spreading rumors, etc." We can also write in "spying, computer hacking, legal manipulations", etc. But there are a lot of cards that offer bleed bonuses that don't make much sense to me, thematically. What exactly is "Deep Song" and why does it harm the assets, reputation, property, etc. of another Methuselah? I'm also intrigued by the ability to burn locations as a form of pool damage, and quite a few vampires and actions have that as part of their ability, but it doesn't seem to be a viable ousting method, or even a supporting strategy. :/ Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > LivesByProxy wrote: > > I want the !Nos to work, but I also want it to be a combat deck, because combat decks are 'bad'. I'm not sure which direction I should go though: > > > Deep song - If you play nosferatu or gangrel with animalism, you can simply use same cards for both rushing and bleed. I consider this to be a really good card. Drawback: this card cannot rush allies. > With animalism, you can also use Army of Rats (my favorite card in the game). You'd have to defend it though...

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > With animalism, you can also use Army of Rats (my favorite card in the game). You'd have to defend it though... > Not as often as you would think. It's "just" one pool, right? Folks forego dealing with it thinking that forward progress is more important.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > Why is everyone fine with Dominate being the best bleeding and best bleed defense discipline? > Excellent strawman argument, as no one said that, ever. Try to not use logical fallacies to support your arguments, please.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > What exactly is "Deep Song" and why does it harm the assets, reputation, property, etc. of another Methuselah? > whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Animalism_(VTM) Deep Song: Influence the emotional state of listeners with a song Sounds like it works well for a card that can bleed or enter combat. Change emotional state to panic make them make a poor investment choice like buying bitcoins. Make them rage and destroy their property. Make them agrey enough to enter combat with you. All seem to cover the ability's description.

> kschaefer wrote: > > > TwoRazorReign wrote: > > With animalism, you can also use Army of Rats (my favorite card in the game). You'd have to defend it though... > > > Not as often as you would think. It's "just" one pool, right? Folks forego dealing with it thinking that forward progress is more important. > Fantastic point. This is exactly why Army of Rats is my favorite card in the game.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > Also, to anyone who may be reading: What do you imagine 'bleeding' to be? > Removing beads from the table. If you try to approach VTES as a game that has any kind of conceptual/mechanical parity, you'll go insane very quickly.

> Blooded wrote: > > > LivesByProxy wrote: > > Why is everyone fine with Dominate being the best bleeding and best bleed defense discipline? > > > Excellent strawman argument, as no one said that, ever. > Try to not use logical fallacies to support your arguments, please. > ....... > Bloodartist wrote: > Do you mean cards that are not dominate, presence or political actions have poor ousting power? Yeah, welcome to VTES where everyone is fine with dominate being OP. > I was asking a relevant question as prompted by BloodArtist's comment. Check yourself before you wreck yourself, matey. But seriously though, there are so many cards that burn pool or bleed your prey for minuscule amounts compared to Dominate. Why? As I've said in another thread, Richard Garfield, for all his genius, seemed prone to making power cards. Conditioning and Govern The Unaligned seem like VTES's equivalent of MTG's Ancestral Recall and Time Walk (two OP / broken cards.) Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > > > Blooded wrote: > > > > > LivesByProxy wrote: > > > Why is everyone fine with Dominate being the best bleeding and best bleed defense discipline? > > > > > > > > Excellent strawman argument, as no one said that, ever. > > Try to not use logical fallacies to support your arguments, please. > > > ....... > > > Bloodartist wrote: > > Do you mean cards that are not dominate, presence or political actions have poor ousting power? Yeah, welcome to VTES where everyone is fine with dominate being OP. > > > I was asking a relevant question as prompted by BloodArtist's comment. Check yourself before you wreck yourself, matey. > Not my fault you missed the invisible /s after his line... > LivesByProxy wrote: > But seriously though, there are so many cards that burn pool or bleed your prey for minuscule amounts compared to Dominate. Why? As I've said in another thread, Richard Garfield, for all his genius, seemed prone to making power cards. Conditioning and Govern The Unaligned seem like VTES's equivalent of MTG's Ancestral Recall and Time Walk (two OP / broken cards.) > Nope, that would be return to Innocence and Protect Thine Own, actually. The problem with dominate is in it's versatility. Same with Presence. Presence suffers due to having insane synergy with voting heavy decks using VC and Majesty.

I got the sarcasm, which is directed at the VTES community, no? Players play with the strongest cards and tactics available, because they are what get VP and win games. But I don't see any pressure from players to have the designers buff the other Disciplines up to Dominate's level of power and versatility (so many cards are deemed 'wallpaper' for their uselessness). So while the players would seem to dislike it, as you and BloodArtist imply, they're also willing to just accept it, which is like the definition of despair. XD OK, Protect Thine Own is pretty powerful, but why was Return To Innocence banned? You spend pool to get a big vamp out, and then use Innocence to burn prey's pool but you lose your fatty. It enabled a board sweep? Was there some combo that kept your vamp from being burnt? Explain please. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

Can you guys please take this argument about whatever it is out of the deck clinic? LBP have you tried your deck yet? How did it fare? Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> LivesByProxy wrote: > OK, Protect Thine Own is pretty powerful, but why was Return To Innocence banned? You spend pool to get a big vamp out, and then use Innocence to burn prey's pool but you lose your fatty. It enabled a board sweep? Was there some combo that kept your vamp from being burnt? Explain please. > Nope. Someone else spends pool to get a big vamp out. You steal it for a while and play Return To Innocence (no requirements save the high bloodcost) and profit while someone else (your Prey even) loses that vamp and you Prey burns plenty of Pool. Harsh! Finnish Politics!

> brandonsantacruz wrote: > Can you guys please take this argument about whatever it is out of the deck clinic? > Isn't that up to the moderator? How would one move parts of a thread? Also, can I ask why you are requesting this? I understand not wanting to sift through uninteresting posts about an unrelated argument, but when one requests that the discussion in a thread be changed, it comes across as trying to control what is discussed in the thread. Which is kind of obnoxious. You really can't deal with an unrelated argument existing in a thread with a different intended discussion?

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > > > brandonsantacruz wrote: > > Can you guys please take this argument about whatever it is out of the deck clinic? > > > Isn't that up to the moderator? How would one move parts of a thread? > > Also, can I ask why you are requesting this? I understand not wanting to sift through uninteresting posts about an unrelated argument, but when one requests that the discussion in a thread be changed, it comes across as trying to control what is discussed in the thread. Which is kind of obnoxious. You really can't deal with an unrelated argument existing in a thread with a different intended discussion? > For those lacking understanding of the English language: He means: stick to the topic in this thread. If you want to continue your argument, make a different thread. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

I get that he is essentially asking to stick to the topic. But, I mean...discussion happens. And making sub-threads for different topics that emerge from a thread with an unrelated title is not a thing on this forum. So, in light of that, how about just dealing with the idea that threads are not going to stay on topic? Asking people to start a new thread with any off topic discussion is petulant. And so is responding with a passive-aggressive line like "For those lacking understanding of the English language". If you want to zing me for "not understanding the English language," go ahead and do so directly. You don't have to couch it like you're responding to more than one person.

No arguments here, this was all just friendly banter. X) Unfortunately, I haven't gotten a chance to playtest this yet. :[ If I were to make a new thread for each of my questions that arise from our talks, the forum would be full of "LivesByProxy" threads. Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

> TwoRazorReign wrote: > I get that he is essentially asking to stick to the topic. But, I mean...discussion happens. And making sub-threads for different topics that emerge from a thread with an unrelated title is not a thing on this forum. So, in light of that, how about just dealing with the idea that threads are not going to stay on topic? Asking people to start a new thread with any off topic discussion is petulant. > I don't care to drag this out to 10+ pages, I'll simply say that requests for off-topic discussion to move to an appropriate part of the forum are not that uncommon. I like to talk about decks and deck design. I also don't care to trade barbs with you, friend. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/