Ballot vs Fee Stake

How works ballots vs efect 1 fewer votes? Q1) Fee Stake: Perth Cardtype: Action Requires a ready anarch with capacity above 4. +1 stealth action. Title. Put this card on the acting anarch to represent the unique anarch title of Baron of Perth. This may lead to a contested title. Any vampire can call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action. In that referendum, non-anarch titles are worth 1 fewer votes. So,when any vampire call referendum to burn this card,how that afect ballots and prisci sub referendum? Q2) Free States Rant Cardtype: Political Action Requires an Independent vampire. Allocate X points among one or more ready vampires, where X is half the capacity of the acting vampire (rounded up). No more than 3 points can be allocated to each vampire. Successful referendum means each vampire burns 1 blood for each point assigned. In this referendum, non-priscus titles are worth 1 fewer vote each, priscus title is worth 1 less ballot, and burning the Edge is worth an additional vote. Gratiano Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Lasombra Group: 2 Capacity: 8 Discipline: obf pot DOM OBT Sabbat priscus: Gratiano gets one additional ballot. +1 bleed. So in refendum Free States Rant,all prisci have 0 ballots and Gratiano have 1,that automaticli count controler Gratiano gets prisci sub referendum-him have 3 votes,right? Q3) How Q1 affect Gratiano(if have any efect)?

> beslin wrote: > How works ballots vs efect 1 fewer votes? > > Q1) Fee Stake: Perth > > Cardtype: Action > Requires a ready anarch with capacity above 4. +1 stealth action. Title. > Put this card on the acting anarch to represent the unique anarch title of Baron of Perth. This may lead to a contested title. Any vampire can call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action. In that referendum, non-anarch titles are worth 1 fewer votes. > > So,when any vampire call referendum to burn this card,how that afect ballots and prisci sub referendum? > Not affected, they don't get -1 ballot. > beslin wrote: > Q2) Free States Rant > > Cardtype: Political Action > Requires an Independent vampire. > Allocate X points among one or more ready vampires, where X is half the capacity of the acting vampire (rounded up). No more than 3 points can be allocated to each vampire. Successful referendum means each vampire burns 1 blood for each point assigned. In this referendum, non-priscus titles are worth 1 fewer vote each, priscus title is worth 1 less ballot, and burning the Edge is worth an additional vote. > Affected, they are worth 1 less ballot. > beslin wrote: > Gratiano > > Cardtype: Vampire > Clan: Lasombra > Group: 2 > Capacity: 8 > Discipline: obf pot DOM OBT > Sabbat priscus: Gratiano gets one additional ballot. +1 bleed. > > So in refendum Free States Rant,all prisci have 0 ballots and Gratiano have 1,that automaticli count controler Gratiano gets prisci sub referendum-him have 3 votes,right? > Correct. > beslin wrote: > Q3) How Q1 affect Gratiano(if have any efect)? > He's not affected. If he were Cardinal, he would keep his additional ballot, and would have 2 votes (3 - 1) in the main referendum and 1 ballot in the prisci sub-referendum. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > He's not affected. If he were Cardinal, he would keep his additional ballot, and would have 2 votes (3 - 1) in the main referendum and 1 ballot in the prisci sub-referendum. > This seems highly counter intuitive. A vampire may only have one political title. Priscus is a title. Voting in the sub referendum is reserved to priscii. how can he vote in the priscii sub and then have a totally different title in the main referenum?

Card text: "Gratiano gets one additional ballot." That is no different than "Eze gets 1 additional vote." The additional vote or ballot is just special text that does not prevent the vampire from having a title because in and of itself the additional vote/ballot is not a title.

> Blooded wrote: > This seems highly counter intuitive. A vampire may only have one political title. Priscus is a title. Voting in the sub referendum is reserved to priscii. how can he vote in the priscii sub and then have a totally different title in the main referenum? > There was a rule in the Sabbat expansion rulesheet that required that and an RTR in 1997, but it was overturned many years ago - a quick delve through history suggests it may have happened in the Final Nights rulebook. Anyone with ballots can cast them in the Priscus sub-referendum. Additionally, any Priscus is free to cast votes in the main referendum if they have them - such as Genevieve (her special is a vote in the main referendum), or any Priscus playing Bewitching Oration or any other vote modifier. There's no problem with participating in both the main and subreferendum - except that your votes and ballots must be cast the same way.

> Ankha wrote: > > > beslin wrote: > > Gratiano > > > > So in refendum Free States Rant,all prisci have 0 ballots and Gratiano have 1,that automaticli count controler Gratiano gets prisci sub referendum-him have 3 votes,right? > > > Correct. > The Priscus sub-referendum has all the ballots cast in it, and then the winning side has 3 votes cast for or against the referendum. But that block of 3 votes isn't cast by any individual Priscus - which would be potentially non-sensical on a table with two or more Priscus anyway. This doesn't make much difference, but would be relevant e.g. to Tribunal Judgment, and one or two other corner-case effects.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > beslin wrote: > > > Gratiano > > > > > > So in refendum Free States Rant,all prisci have 0 ballots and Gratiano have 1,that automaticli count controler Gratiano gets prisci sub referendum-him have 3 votes,right? > > > > > Correct. > > > The Priscus sub-referendum has all the ballots cast in it, and then the winning side has 3 votes cast for or against the referendum. But that block of 3 votes isn't cast by any individual Priscus - which would be potentially non-sensical on a table with two or more Priscus anyway. > > This doesn't make much difference, but would be relevant e.g. to Tribunal Judgment, and one or two other corner-case effects. > I parsed beslin igor's text as: "the controller of Gratiano gets the prisci sub-referendum to vote for him". Anyway, it's clearer indeed to rephrase as you did: Gratiano's ballot determines how the prisci block will vote in the main referendum (and those votes are not cast by Gratiano). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > beslin wrote: > > How works ballots vs efect 1 fewer votes? > > > > Q1) Fee Stake: Perth > > > > Cardtype: Action > > Requires a ready anarch with capacity above 4. +1 stealth action. Title. > > Put this card on the acting anarch to represent the unique anarch title of Baron of Perth. This may lead to a contested title. Any vampire can call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action. In that referendum, non-anarch titles are worth 1 fewer votes. > > > > So,when any vampire call referendum to burn this card,how that afect ballots and prisci sub referendum? > > > Not affected, they don't get -1 ballot. > It seems odd that the Fee Stakes were never updated when the Prisci vote became a ballot. The cards were printed in 2003 (and never updated since), but ballots were introduced in 2011. It seems counterintuitive that the -1 vote-like thing in a referendum sometimes affects Prisci and sometimes not. These cards should all use the same templating. EDIT: LSJ's original ruling was because there was no text on Fee Stakes that specifically pointed out the Prisci votes, but the FSR text was parenthetical on the original printing. The original ruling was an error, IMO.

Current card text: > Free States Rant > Requires an Independent or Anarch vampire. > > Allocate X points among one or more ready vampires, where X is half the capacity of the acting vampire (rounded up). No more than 3 points points can be allocated to each vampire. Successful referendum means each vampire burns 1 blood for each point allocated. In this referendum, non-priscus titles are worth 1 less vote each, priscus title is worth 1 less ballot, and burning the Edge is worth 1 additional vote. > I think it's clear now, is it not ?

> lip wrote: > Current card text: > > > Free States Rant > > Requires an Independent or Anarch vampire. > > > > Allocate X points among one or more ready vampires, where X is half the capacity of the acting vampire (rounded up). No more than 3 points points can be allocated to each vampire. Successful referendum means each vampire burns 1 blood for each point allocated. In this referendum, non-priscus titles are worth 1 less vote each, priscus title is worth 1 less ballot, and burning the Edge is worth 1 additional vote. > > > I think it's clear now, is it not ? > You're missing the point. I am talking about history. Original versions of cards, bad rulings, and the botched migration to ballots because of that. The original text of FSR included a reference to Prisci in a parenthetical. The original text (only text) for Fee Stakes did not. LSJ's ruling about Fee Stakes not affecting Prisci is because the parenthetical is missing. While we know that WW era cards used the parenthetical poorly, it seems odd that such a ruling was made. Parenthetical text being, well, parenthetical. We're now living with two similar, but different templates: one affecting ballots and one not. The principle of least surprise suggests that this is bad design. I see no reason that LSJ's original ruling couldn't be overturned now. If the rules team doesn't want to undo LSJ's marginally bad call, BCP also has the chance to align the templating for the upcoming Anarch set. One hopes that Fee Stakes will finally see a reprint there.

Oh right, I get it know - I was missing the point. If I understand correctly you’re arguing fee stake cards should affect ballots ? The way it works for free states rant ? That makes more sense.