I'm a little confused as to the card's wording:
> undead persistence
> [for] Only usable when this vampire should go into torpor. This vampire gets an optional press and will not go to torpor until combat ends (although he or she is still considered wounded and can be burned as normal). If three rounds of combat pass with no cards played, combat ends. This vampire is sent into torpor after combat.
> [FOR] Prevent 2 damage.
>
the way i've always seen this played in my group is that the vampire playing this card gets an optional press each round. because if they only got the one press, how could the 'combat ends' clause ever be relevant?
i've always thought of this card as a slightly different version of TRAP! that requires fortitude.
after actually reading the card I'm prepared that we've been playing this very, very wrong.
> self wrote:
> I'm a little confused as to the card's wording:[/i]
>
> > undead persistence
> > [for] Only usable when this vampire should go into torpor. This vampire gets an optional press and will not go to torpor until combat ends (although he or she is still considered wounded and can be burned as normal). If three rounds of combat pass with no cards played, combat ends. This vampire is sent into torpor after combat.
> > [FOR] Prevent 2 damage.
> >
> the way i've always seen this played in my group is that the vampire playing this card gets an optional press each round.
>
That's a common mistake. Since the text strongly reminds the text of Trap, people tend to think it provides presses as the Trap does. This is not the case. Undead Persistance gives 1 optional press for the current round.
> self wrote:
> because if they only got the one press, how could the 'combat ends' clause ever be relevant?
>
Let's say Fakir al Sidi ("Fakir gets 1 optional press each combat.") plays Undead Persistance and a Trap. On the fourth round, he decides to use his press to start a fifth round. Undead Persistance would end combat.
> self wrote:
> i've always thought of this card as a slightly different version of TRAP! that requires fortitude.
>
But it doesn't have the same cardtext if you read it without making any assumption.
> self wrote:
> after actually reading the card I'm prepared that we've been playing this very, very wrong.
>
Indeed.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
But the "three rounds" part is so cornercase that I wonder why it was introduced in the first place. My guess is that it was released at the same time as Trap and they wanted to double-check the interaction between both cards. Or maybe the card was changed (maybe it provided a press like the Trap at that time)
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
right? It's that three rounds clause that gets me. I'm hard pressed to come up with three permanent cards that provide presses, though you could probably generate one with an action modifier, too. It seems like an awful lot of setup when you could just use trap, and trap also ends after 3 rounds of no cards being played.
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > self wrote:
> > i've always thought of this card as a slightly different version of TRAP! that requires fortitude.
> >
> > But it doesn't have the same cardtext if you read it without making any assumption.
> >
> I see your point, Ankha, but it is such a ubiquitous mistake, that there has to be a problem here. In my experience, the common assumption when reading the card for the first time is that combat will be automatically extended for 3 rounds, regardless of presses, unless a card is played, whereupon it will be extended further. The card text needs to clarify that there is only 1 press provided, and that card does not extend combat beyond that press.
>
> "Only usable when this vampire should go into torpor. This vampire gets an optional press and will not go to torpor (although he or she is still considered wounded and can be burned as normal). This card does not extend combat beyond the one press provided; if three rounds of combat were to pass with no cards played during those rounds, combat ends. This vampire is sent into torpor after combat."
>
Do take into account that the text space is limited and the card is already rather text heavy..
I'd remove the rather unnecessary 3 round clause to make it less text heavy and less confusing.
(Have loved the card for years and years BTW...)
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> Do take into account that the text space is limited and the card is already rather text heavy..
>
> I'd remove the rather unnecessary 3 round clause to make it less text heavy and less confusing.
>
> (Have loved the card for years and years BTW...)
>
It would require a reprint, but yes, removing unnecessary text would help.
I am still looking for a card that would give unlimited presses, but I can't find one (Ecstatic Agony grants a press only once each combat).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> I am still looking for a card that would give unlimited presses, but I can't find one (Ecstatic Agony grants a press only once each combat).
>
Off head the best bet is the already mentioned Trap and keeping it running with a combat card every 3rd round.
That is what I did with my weenie Fortitude deck.
Finnish Politics!
> Ankha wrote:
> I am still looking for a card that would give unlimited presses, but I can't find one (Ecstatic Agony grants a press only once each combat).
>
The only one I can recall that could do it endlessly is Meat Hook - but that got changed because of that.
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > I am still looking for a card that would give unlimited presses, but I can't find one (Ecstatic Agony grants a press only once each combat).
> >
> Off head the best bet is the already mentioned Trap and keeping it running with a combat card every 3rd round.
>
> That is what I did with my weenie Fortitude deck.
>
Indeed, but if you play a combat card, it fuels both the Trap and the Undead Persistence with the current cardtext.
In your scenario, it wouldn't change anything if the cardtext of Undead Persistence was changed or not.
I'm looking for a loophole where you could continue combat until the opponent goes to torpor without playing cards.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > I am still looking for a card that would give unlimited presses, but I can't find one (Ecstatic Agony grants a press only once each combat).
> >
> The only one I can recall that could do it endlessly is Meat Hook - but that got changed because of that.
>
That was probably the only way to do that. I couldn't find other threads with "infinite" presses.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> That was probably the only way to do that. I couldn't find other threads with "infinite" presses.
>
Infinite, not so much, but you could still (in theory) trigger the Undead Persistence text by just having a variety of not-playing-a-card sources of presses. Trap/Conquer the Beast could provide several without playing a further card, then a Hawg, then Mob Connections, then the press from a previously-played Hidden Lurker which is how you got into combat etc. And a bunch more sources of presses in later sets too - Underbridge Stray, Ruins of Ceoris, Big Game, Mind Tricks, or whatever.
Obviously, very very unlikely in anything but the weirdest draft game imaginable, but theoretically possible.
Wait,
So is the debate if removing the 3 rounds part breaks it? Because I think that just makes it Undying Tenacity with one press, which isn't broken.
I'm tired of explaining why I'm playing trap and Undead Persistence in my "fortitude trap n graverob" gimmick deck. People really do think UP keeps combat going, when it sort of does the opposite, just not until 3 rounds later happens.....
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Wait,
>
> So is the debate if removing the 3 rounds part breaks it? Because I think that just makes it Undying Tenacity with one press, which isn't broken.
>
> I'm tired of explaining why I'm playing trap and Undead Persistence in my "fortitude trap n graverob" gimmick deck. People really do think UP keeps combat going, when it sort of does the opposite, just not until 3 rounds later happens.....
>
It's not that Undead Persistence is broken, it's that the card text is so perplexing that it leads people to believe that it keeps combat going for 3 rounds.