Slave: Some minions are identified as slaves to a specified clan. A slave cannot take a directed action if his controller doesn't control a ready member of the specified clan. Also, if a member of the specified clan controlled by the same Methuselah is blocked, the controller can lock the slave to cancel the combat and to unlock the acting vampire and have the slave enter combat with the blocking minion instead.
Mental Maze
Reaction
Obfuscate
Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or a younger vampire (play before combat, if any).
End the action (with no combat). If this blocking minion is a Follower of Set, this card costs 1 less blood.
As above, and do not tap this blocking vampire.
If a younger vampire is acting and gets blocked, he can choose to use the Slave rule. If so, mental maze can be played? And with which results?
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
Apparently the slave can enter combat before the blocker can play obedience/mental maze.
groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/ECrwBsBMHaU
> XZealot wrote:
> >
> > Does the slave rule beat obedience?
> The rule doesn't, no.
>
> But the sequencing rule would allow the acting player to activate the slave
> rule before the defending player could play Obedience, yes.
> [LSJ 04-NOV-2001]
> Google: "slave obedience author:LSJ"
>
> > If say Jing Wei is blocked and
> > obedience is played, then could I institute the slave rule and enter combat
> > with the reacting minion?
> Yes.
>
> > Also, under the rules it says that when you block someone that you tap and
> > enter combat. Since nothing in VTES is simultaneous, what comes first the
> > tapping or the entering combat?
> As you say, the tapping.
> But you don't tap until you're about to enter combat, in case you're worried
> about Obedience's timing (it is played before you tap, of course).
>
> --
> LSJ () V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
> Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
> www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
>
-1 Strength
In this case, you cannot cancel that which does not exist.
1. Attempt to Block.
2. Block Successful
3. Effects after block successful (Change of Target, Kiss of Ra, Obedience, Mental Maze...)
4. Combat IF ANY.
Think of it like this, the same way there's a chance that an airplane travel ends without a crash, there's a chance that a block results in a combat.
> GreyB wrote:
> Apparently the slave can enter combat before the blocker can play obedience/mental maze.
>
> groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/ECrwBsBMHaU
>
> > XZealot wrote:
> > >
> > > Does the slave rule beat obedience?
> > The rule doesn't, no.
> >
> > But the sequencing rule would allow the acting player to activate the slave
> > rule before the defending player could play Obedience, yes.
> > [LSJ 04-NOV-2001]
> > Google: "slave obedience author:LSJ"
> >
> > > If say Jing Wei is blocked and
> > > obedience is played, then could I institute the slave rule and enter combat
> > > with the reacting minion?
> > Yes.
> >
> > > Also, under the rules it says that when you block someone that you tap and
> > > enter combat. Since nothing in VTES is simultaneous, what comes first the
> > > tapping or the entering combat?
> > As you say, the tapping.
> > But you don't tap until you're about to enter combat, in case you're worried
> > about Obedience's timing (it is played before you tap, of course).
> >
> > --
> > LSJ () V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
> > Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
> > www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
> >
Oh Scott, we miss you.
BTW, bogus rulling. I hope it changes.
> LSJ wrote:
> > If say Jing Wei is blocked and
> > obedience is played, then could I institute the slave rule and enter combat
> > with the reacting minion?
> Yes.
>
Was later corrected to NO, my bad premature posting...
So you can utilise slave rule BEFORE mental maze/obedience is played thanks to sequencing rules. And since the slave is NOT the acting minion and thus not the blocked minion, the window for mental maze/obedience is closed.
-1 Strength
> Brum wrote:
> BTW, bogus rulling. I hope it changes.
>
I hope the all slave rules change...
- lose the acting rule
- lose the take over combat rule
- new rule: Any minion that belongs to a clan to whom the slave is enslaved can burn 1 blood to end combat with the slave before combat begins.
- new rule: A slave minion must pay 1 blood to act against a methuselah owning any minions belonging to the clan to whom the slave is enslaved.
Or something like that, so you can play gargoyles without tremere and clan impersonation becomes an odd card you put into your deck =P
-1 Strength
as I stated in my first post, the acting minion can use the slave rule to untap and make the gargoyle enter combat. That said, obedience is slightly different from mental maze:
Mental Maze
[Reaction] Reaction
[Obfuscate] Obfuscate
[1 Blood]
Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or a younger vampire (play before combat, if any).
[obf] End the action (with no combat). If this blocking minion is a Follower of Set, this card costs 1 less blood.
[OBF] As above, and do not tap this blocking vampire.
Obedience
[Reaction] Reaction
[Dominate] Dominate
Only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire.
[dom] Untap the acting vampire, do not tap this reacting vampire, and end the current action (and combat). The acting vampire cannot attempt the same action this turn.
[DOM] As above, but do not untap the acting vampire.
In Obedience case, it's clear the Tremere is no longer the acting vampire (thus the ruling).
In Mental Maze case, is the blocking minion still blocking? If yes, he can play Mental Maze, resulting in an untapped tremere, a tapped gargoyle and no combat (opposing minion tapped or not depending on his level of obfuscate). If not, Gargoyle enters combat with the opposing minion, tapped because of the succesful block on tremere.
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
> thelonius wrote:
> In Obedience case, it's clear the Tremere is no longer the acting vampire (thus the ruling).
>
> In Mental Maze case, is the blocking minion still blocking?
>
When a Methuselah uses an "about to enter combat" effect, the other Methuselah(s) can use "about to enter combat" effects too - unless the play has been invalidated by an earlier play - such as slave rule followed by Obedience (illegal), which requires the vampire to be entering combat with a younger acting vampire, as you say; or Change of Target followed by Obedience (illegal), because CoT ended the action so Obedience is no longer playable at all.
I go into some detail about an LSJ ruling in this post from 2014 , citing this earlier ruling from LSJ: [LSJ 20090513] . From the terminology used by Floppy (in the original question), the slave rule is activated in a1 and Mental Maze can be activated in a2 (as can a bunch of other things) - which basically means "the acting Methuselah can play her effects by sequencing, then the other Methuselah(s) get their go, with all the normal sequencing rule implications".
While obviously my explanations aren't official, no-one seemed to object at that point.
> thelonius wrote:
> In Mental Maze case, is the blocking minion still blocking? If yes, he can play Mental Maze, resulting in an untapped tremere, a tapped gargoyle and no combat (opposing minion tapped or not depending on his level of obfuscate). If not, Gargoyle enters combat with the opposing minion, tapped because of the succesful block on tremere.
>
Ok, so no obedience because you change the acting minion, but ok with mental maze because the blocking minion is still blocking. So,
untapped acting,
tapped slave,
no combat,
normal tap/no tap the blocking minion depending on obf/OBF
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
> rulebook wrote:
> Also, if a member of the specified clan controlled by the same Methuselah is blocked, the controller can lock the slave to cancel the combat and to unlock the acting vampire and have the slave enter combat with the blocking minion instead.
>
Note, slave rule can be applied on a successful block, this is important for sequencing. However the slave rule is part of the action sequence (implied, could be written down in the rulebook for clarity).
> obedience wrote:
> Only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire.
>
Due to sequencing, the slave rule can be applied before obedience is played. After the slave rule is applied, the blocking minion is no longer about to enter combat with any acting vampire, thus obedience cannot be played.
> mental wrote:
> Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or a younger vampire (play before combat, if any).
>
Due to sequencing, the slave rule can be applied before mental maze is played.
There's nothing stopping mental maze from being played. Sequencing does not take away the fact that the vampire has blocked a minion.
> mental wrote:
> End the action (with no combat). If this blocking minion is a Follower of Set, this card costs 1 less blood
>
Slave rule is part of the action, so there's no combat.
-1 Strength
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > thelonius wrote:
> > In Obedience case, it's clear the Tremere is no longer the acting vampire (thus the ruling).
> >
> > In Mental Maze case, is the blocking minion still blocking?
> >
> When a Methuselah uses an "about to enter combat" effect, the other Methuselah(s) can use "about to enter combat" effects too - unless the play has been invalidated by an earlier play - such as slave rule followed by Obedience (illegal), which requires the vampire to be entering combat with a younger acting vampire, as you say; or Change of Target followed by Obedience (illegal), because CoT ended the action so Obedience is no longer playable at all.
>
> I go into some detail about an LSJ ruling in this post from 2014 , citing this earlier ruling from LSJ: [LSJ 20090513] . From the terminology used by Floppy (in the original question), the slave rule is activated in a1 and Mental Maze can be activated in a2 (as can a bunch of other things) - which basically means "the acting Methuselah can play her effects by sequencing, then the other Methuselah(s) get their go, with all the normal sequencing rule implications".
>
> While obviously my explanations aren't official, no-one seemed to object at that point.
>
I'm not entirely sure whether you said "yes, mental maze can still be played in this situation". I think you did, which I sort of agree to. It wouldn't hurt to be slightly more direct.
I was just wondering that the the gargoyle is no longer the minion who was blocked, but mental mazes requirement "successfully blocks an ally or younger vampire" was still satisfied when the tremere was originally blocked. Gargoyle counts as a 'younger vampire' at least, but does it matter if its not the vampire who was successfully blocked or does the swap invalidate the original "succesful block" condition of mental maze? As in, mental mazes condition was satisfied at first, then its no longer applicable. Can mental maze still be played?
Does the satisfied mental maze condition "carry over" to the moment where player B is able to play "before combat" effects? Or does the "being blocked" condition carry over to the gargoyle? I don't believe in this latter one at least. Its just entering combat, nothing is any longer being blocked as the original combat was canceled.
*
As we can see, even slight differences in card wordings can create completely different scenarios. And for some strange reason, people who write these cards feel compelled to use slightly different wordings for cards that do basically same thing. Please don't. Things are complicated enough as it is.
In this case, I think slave rule and other cards that perform a similar "cancel combat and this card enters combat with minion X instead" such as Ohoyo Hopoksia would benefit having their ability written as "Action ends without combat. Then this minion enters combat with acting/reacting minion".
As far as I can see, "Action ends" would sweep away all possible rules complications from minions that are colliding. This should clear things up.
EDIT: Seems like it took me long enough to write that post that multiple posts were posted after that and my question was answered.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
jamesatzephyr, thelonius reloaded and greyB are correct: if the slave enters combat instead of the enslaving vampire, Mental Maze can be played by the reacting vampire (not Obedience due to the "acting vampire" reference).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Bloodartist wrote:
> I was just wondering that the the gargoyle is no longer the minion who was blocked, but mental mazes requirement "successfully blocks an ally or younger vampire" was still satisfied when the tremere was originally blocked.
>
Yes, the blocking minion has successfully blocked the Tremere.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> Gargoyle counts as a 'younger vampire' at least, but does it matter if its not the vampire who was successfully blocked or does the swap invalidate the original "succesful block" condition of mental maze? As in, mental mazes condition was satisfied at first, then its no longer applicable. Can mental maze still be played?
>
Mental Maze only cares about the vampire that was blocked, so the Tremere. It still works even if the Gargoyle is older than the blocking vampire.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> Does the satisfied mental maze condition "carry over" to the moment where player B is able to play "before combat" effects? Or does the "being blocked" condition carry over to the gargoyle? I don't believe in this latter one at least. Its just entering combat, nothing is any longer being blocked as the original combat was canceled.
>
The Tremere was blocked.
The Gargoyle wasn't blocked.
The slave effect unlocks the Tremere, locks the slave, and replaces the combat between the acting minion minion and the blocking minion by a combat between the slave and the blocking minion ("instead")
> Bloodartist wrote:
> As we can see, even slight differences in card wordings can create completely different scenarios. And for some strange reason, people who write these cards feel compelled to use slightly different wordings for cards that do basically same thing. Please don't. Things are complicated enough as it is.
>
That's historical. Obedience was written long before Mental Maze. Had it been written at the same time, it would probably have the same cardtext. But Obedience works as it is (you can play it even if you haven't blocked) and has many clarifications attached to it.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> In this case, I think slave rule and other cards that perform a similar "cancel combat and this card enters combat with minion X instead" such as Ohoyo Hopoksia would benefit having their ability written as "Action ends without combat. Then this minion enters combat with acting/reacting minion".
>
It's a bad idea to have a combat occur outside an action. I don't see any problem in making another minion enter combat "instead" of the acting minion.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> As far as I can see, "Action ends" would sweep away all possible rules complications from minions that are colliding. This should clear things up.
>
It would open can worms and create new complications (why can I tap the Heidelberg during that out-of-action combat and not during regular combat?)
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I believe Thelonius is correct. I know that the slave clause beats Obedience in the case of a block, although that is a little different since Obedience specifies 'about to enter combat' rather than block.
That said, if both slave clause and MM occur in the same window (post-block, pre-combat), it seems that the acting vamp has impulse to activate the slave clause first.
-Killiam
(Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from
Look at the woman I've become
And the strangest things seem
Suddenly routine"
-Hedwig Robinson
Okay, I don't know how to use this forum quite yet; my response seems to be in reply to a late post from Thelonius, which is not the one I was responding to. Perhaps something to do with the refresh rate of the page with respect to responses. Sorry =/
-Killiam
(Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from
Look at the woman I've become
And the strangest things seem
Suddenly routine"
-Hedwig Robinson