Nest of Eagles

I feel like this has been ruled on/clarified... yet I can't find it with searching either google or here on VEKN. Nest of eagles reads: "Reduce a bleed against you by 1. If the acting minion is a vampire with capacity less than 6 or an ally, reduce the bleed by 3. Not usable if the acting minion is an Assamite or wraith or has flight [FLIGHT] ." (text from SecretLibrary, matches the text on the physical card). Reading the card procedurally (i.e. every full sentence is a separate command), I would reduce the bleed against myself by 1. THEN, I would check if the bleeder satisfied the second part. If they did, I'd reduce the bleed by another 3, for a total of 4. This is the most logical. If the writers wanted it to reduce the bleed by 3 and not 4 against weenies, they could have put a comma with an "or" (i.e. "... by 1, or if the acting...") OR they could have added an "instead" at the end (i.e. "...or an ally, reduce the bleed by 3 instead."). So as written the card reduces bleeds by 1 or 4. BUT... I have a vague memory of a ruling that it was for 3 instead? Am I misremembering? It's not in the rulings list, nor do I find it in this forum

> Malcolm wrote: > Reading the card procedurally (i.e. every full sentence is a separate command), I would reduce the bleed against myself by 1. THEN, I would check if the bleeder satisfied the second part. If they did, I'd reduce the bleed by another 3, for a total of 4. > This is the most logical. If the writers wanted it to reduce the bleed by 3 and not 4 against weenies, they could have put a comma with an "or" (i.e. "... by 1, or if the acting...") OR they could have added an "instead" at the end (i.e. "...or an ally, reduce the bleed by 3 instead."). > So as written the card reduces bleeds by 1 or 4. > Interesting. Would you also argue that when playing Aire of Elation at inferior Presence, you'd bleed for +1, then add +2 if acting vampire is Toreador, for a total of +3 bleed? Aire of Elation You cannot play another action modifier to further increase the bleed for this action. pre: +1 bleed; +2 bleed if the acting vampire is Toreador. PRE:+2 bleed; +3 bleed if the acting vampire is Toreador.

> Malcolm wrote: > -SNIP- > So as written the card reduces bleeds by 1 or 4. > Good etiquette for card queries is to quote the card text. Please try to do so in future. Nest of Eagles Type: Reaction Requires: Assamite Reduce a bleed against you by 1. If the acting minion is a vampire with capacity less than 6 or an ally, reduce the bleed by 3. Not usable if the acting minion is an Assamite or wraith or has flight [FLIGHT]. Let's find something to compare with that is similar in nature. In other words, a full stop separated, 2 separate effect, no discipline card. Disciplines explicitly have to be played at one or another discipline level, as per the rule book. King's Favor Type: Reaction Requires: Guruhi Only usable during a referendum. Boon. This Guruhi gets 3 additional votes. If this Guruhi casts votes in favor, and the referendum passes by the number of votes this Guruhi cast or fewer, put this card in play. While this card is in play, that acting vampire may not block this Guruhi. You may burn this card during any Methuselah's unlock phase to move up to 3 blood from that vampire to this Guruhi. All of these effects are full stop separated, and none are conditional on each other. Thus if their conditions are met, they occur. So far, so much in agreement. Loyalist Type: Reaction Requires: Ventrue antitribu Only usable during a referendum. Usable by a locked vampire. This vampire gains 3 votes against the referendum. If the acting vampire is Sabbat and the referendum fails, move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. Much closer in conditions and effects. And both hold. You might very well have a strong case for a ruling in your favour here. As far as parsing the sentence is concerned, you are correct. It would be 2 separate condition response sets. > TwoRazorReign wrote: > Interesting. Would you also argue that when playing Aire of Elation at inferior Presence, you'd bleed for +1, then add +2 if acting vampire is Toreador, for a total of +3 bleed? > > Aire of Elation > You cannot play another action modifier to further increase the bleed for this action. > pre: +1 bleed; +2 bleed if the acting vampire is Toreador. > PRE:+2 bleed; +3 bleed if the acting vampire is Toreador. > No, as the separation is not a full stop "." which indicates a complete end of statement, but a semi colon, ";" which indicates a conditional

Except Aire of elation is separated by semi-colons instead of periods. That is a way of separating distinct options in a list. That isn't the same as complete sentences with full stop periods. Neither grammatically, nor in the conventions of CCGs.

When you say quote the card text, do you mean put it in a quote box? Because I had the entire card text in quotes in my original post. Yeah, anyway, I know that as written it looks like my reading is right. However, as I said, I could have sworn there was a ruling that disagreed with me. Anybody seen a ruling on this?

It's 1 or 3. groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/mOSm5qLNzyQ/-O3BrCtyfSoJ > LSJ wrote: > > #1. So if a vampire with capacity less than 6 or an ally is bleeding > > you and you play Nest of Eagles, the bleed is reduced by a total of 4, > > right? The first clause reduces it by one, and then the second > > (conditional) clause reduces it by another 3. Since the second clause > > does not replace the first sentence (no "instead") it seems like both > > would trigger, reducing the bleed by 4. Correct? Was that the original > > intent? > No. 3. > I'll update the future card text to make this clear (also Aire of Elation) Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Nest of Eagles Type: Reaction Requires: Assamite Reduce a bleed against you by 1. If the acting minion is a vampire with capacity less than 6 or an ally, reduce the bleed by 3 instead. Not usable if the acting minion is an Assamite or wraith or has flight [FLIGHT]. I added an "instead"... but i'not native English so I leave it to you Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

> thelonius wrote: > Nest of Eagles > Type: Reaction > Requires: Assamite > Reduce a bleed against you by 1. If the acting minion is a vampire with capacity less than 6 or an ally, reduce the bleed by 3 instead. Not usable if the acting minion is an Assamite or wraith or has flight [FLIGHT]. > > I added an "instead"... but i'not native English so I leave it to you > This wording would be clearest, I think. I could've guessed the original was intended to be 1 or 3, but the wording on the original card is terrible, as it tends to be in VTES. Unless errata:ed, I would have also ruled in favor of the original topic. Hell, we have VTES cards where the wordings between jyhad and modern versions aren't remotely the same. Not even numbers (take for example concealed weapon, for which jyhad version says weapon cant do more than 4 damage, whereas the real version says 3) Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Ankha wrote: > I'll update the future card text to make this clear (also Aire of Elation) > Yes, I agree that Aire of Elation has the same lack of clarity as Nest of Eagles and could benefit from clarification. > Blooded wrote: > No, as the separation is not a full stop "." which indicates a complete end of statement, but a semi colon, ";" which indicates a conditional > That's a very specific interpretation of how periods and semicolons function. To say something like a semicolon indicates a conditional is problematic. Your interpretation can and will differ from other people's interpretations. The only definite function semicolons and a periods have in this particular usage exemplified on Aire of Elation is to separate independent clauses. The difference is that a semicolon can be used when a thought or idea in the two clauses is closely related, whereas a period can be used when the two thoughts are not related. That's the only difference, and it's such a subtle one that periods and semicolons are essentially interchangeable when separating independent clauses; it would not be wrong if a period was used when the two clauses are closely related or when a semicolon was used when the two clauses are unrelated. While the semicolon is used correctly on Aire of Elation, it creates problems because other cards, like Nest of Eagles, use a period, and this inconsistency leads people to interpret differences between the two punctuation marks that actually don't exist. > Malcolm wrote: > Except Aire of elation is separated by semi-colons instead of periods. That is a way of separating distinct options in a list. That isn't the same as complete sentences with full stop periods. Neither grammatically, nor in the conventions of CCGs. > The card text on Aire of Elation is not a list. The text is two complete independent clauses separated by a semicolon. It may seem like a list to you because some words are missing, as happens a lot in English. But there's really a subject and verb that are hidden. We are left to fill in the blanks. For example, "[This minion has] +1 bleed." The player is left to figure out what the subject and verb is a lot in VTES, which causes a lot of problems.

Aire of Elation is just as readable as other bleed pumping modifiers if ";" becomes ",or" . +Bleed isn't the only information given, since the effect is printed on an action modifier. With that card type we know cost is paid regardless of the actions outcome, the effect is transient as of that action only, and the effect must be relevant, so no conditioning can be played on a hunt action, etc. So, just ",or" replacing the ";" is all that's needed. Consistancy in templating goes a long way, which I feel the Design Team has been quite watchful of.