Name: Shadow Clone
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Obtenebration
+1 stealth action.
[obt] Lock a ready ally controlled by another Methuselah, and put this card in play; it becomes a copy of that ally with 1 life that does not contest that ally. That ally does not unlock as normal during its unlock phase.
[OBT] As above, with 2 life.
EDIT : added the "controlled by another Methuselah" restriction
EDIT: changed to starting life
EDIT: removed starting life, it's not abusable anyway.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
as it looks now the vampire you copied keeps beeing locked as long as the shadow clone is in play. You should add a clause that makes this clear
Prince of Magdeburg
VEKN-ID: 5850005
Prince-ID: 615
So, it's very unrestricted.
Nehemiah summon history Remnant of the endless storm, untaps with Domain of Evernight. Makes a copy.
Dame and ermanjelio and isanowen all make copies.
Next untap, I have 4 remnant of the endless storm, 3 with 3 life, one with 2. If I run a weenie setite, I can push the original off the towers for 5 pool.
Or,
Meno negari recruits a tunnel runner. Ermanjelio, dame, isanowen, Andrew, and one or both laibon lasombra all make copies. I bring our Jacob fermer.
I now have 5-6 3 life 2 bleed rats who can burn a life for stealth. And can continue to crank them out at such a rate every turn.
I can replicate this with Ponticulus to have an army of blockers immune to non-agg who can get much intercept, with Carlton for defense as well.
Mylan times a billion could give some shmuck tons of actions and lots of 1 bleeders.
Abdosebek gets nephran ka, freak drives to get tutu. He can use his special to untap Ka, tutu uses his to untap after the aforementioned crew of faeries and lasombra crank out extras.
It seems stupid good to me. And "you can block it" doesn't go far, since it's a stealth discipline. If you pack enough Earth melds, imagine how many Satyrs you could get.....
Last ones: impundulu and gregory winters. Whole crypt lasombra/kiasyd. Now, recruit both, keep making copies. Pick off anyone who goes low enough with horse shoes. Maybe rumble arms of the abyss entomb your Uber blockers like neighbor John or Carna.
Group 2: all those OBT guys with weenies malks and muddled Vampire hunters. Get like 10 copies and throw Target vitals, glancing blows, etc.
> ScoundrelAtHeart wrote:
> as it looks now the vampire you copied keeps beeing locked as long as the shadow clone is in play. You should add a clause that makes this clear
>
It not a vampire that is copied, but an ally. And yes, as long as the copy is in play, the copied ally does not unlock as normal (per cardtext).
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> So, it's very unrestricted.
>
> Nehemiah summon history Remnant of the endless storm, untaps with Domain of Evernight. Makes a copy.
> Dame and ermanjelio and isanowen all make copies.
>
> Next untap, I have 4 remnant of the endless storm, 3 with 3 life, one with 2. If I run a weenie setite, I can push the original off the towers for 5 pool.
>
All copies have either 1 life (inferior) or 2 life (superior). I think you misread the card.
My first thought was to copy allies from other players. Maybe it would avoid abuses.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > ScoundrelAtHeart wrote:
> > as it looks now the vampire you copied keeps beeing locked as long as the shadow clone is in play. You should add a clause that makes this clear
> >
> It not a vampire that is copied, but an ally. And yes, as long as the copy is in play, the copied ally does not unlock as normal (per cardtext).
>
> > ReverendRevolver wrote:
> > So, it's very unrestricted.
> >
> > Nehemiah summon history Remnant of the endless storm, untaps with Domain of Evernight. Makes a copy.
> > Dame and ermanjelio and isanowen all make copies.
> >
> > Next untap, I have 4 remnant of the endless storm, 3 with 3 life, one with 2. If I run a weenie setite, I can push the original off the towers for 5 pool.
> >
> All copies have either 1 life (inferior) or 2 life (superior). I think you misread the card.
> .
>
Remnant gains life if below 4 though
> narpassword wrote:
>
> Remnant gains life if below 4 though
>
Intent was to change the starting life of the ally, I'll fix that.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
That does not help: regeneration effects on allies do not refer to their starting life.
>
> Renegade wrote:
> If Renegade Garou has 2 or fewer life during your untap phase, he gains 1 life from the blood bank.
>
That is the current template.
On opposing allies only, I feel it is a bad card: too narrow to see play, and the effect is mostly worse than a simple steal.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> On opposing allies only, I feel it is a bad card: too narrow to see play, and the effect is mostly worse than a simple steal.
>
while I like the idea, I have to agree. I don't think relying on other people to bring a certain cardtype to the table is a good design, especially for what feels like it should be an offensive card (as opposed to something defensive like Canine Horde). Limiting it to other Methuselah's allies basically makes the card wallpaper.
My suggestion is to allow copying of any Ally but have the shadow clone burn during the next untap phase, or have the acting vampire burn blood to keep the ally around each turn.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> That does not help: regeneration effects on allies do not refer to their starting life.
> >
> > Renegade wrote:
> > If Renegade Garou has 2 or fewer life during your untap phase, he gains 1 life from the blood bank.
> >
> That is the current template.
>
You're right. Perhaps I could revert to 1 life, and let the life of a copied Garou increase each unlock phase. It's hardly abusable anyway.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> On opposing allies only, I feel it is a bad card: too narrow to see play, and the effect is mostly worse than a simple steal.
>
Is Far Mastery a wallpaper card ? I think not; still, the restrictions are the same (ok, Far Mastery works on retainers too, but it's usually not the effects that is used)
Basically, this is a "steal ally" effect since the ally is locked and remains locked (albeit On the Qui Vive) but:
1/ the effect ends when the last copy leaves play (that's a drawback)
2/ you can copy the ally multiple times (that's an advantage)
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> 2/ you can copy the ally multiple times (that's an advantage)
>
This is where lack of flexibility hits you: stacking does not matter if having multiple copies in the deck is a bad idea to begin with, so you are just left with a temporary steal effect that is worse than Far Mastery. It would be different if there was another reason to play 5 or 6 in a deck.
A few thoughts
1) An acting Ally should probably have a cost even if it just a blood.
2) I would recommend a secondary effect at inferior and make the clone be the superior text. That should address the concern about wallpaper.
3) I do not like the perm lock for an Ally. Just make it for a turn and you can make the superior text a little more powerful.
Shadow Clone
1
+1 stealth action.
Lock a ready minion controlled by another Methuselah and put a shadow counter on it. A minion with a shadow counter does not unlock as normal during it's next unlock phase then burn the counter.
As above, if the minion is an Ally, put this card in play as a copy of that Ally that doesn't contest.
Does that preserve the intent and add flexibility to the card?
> Ankha wrote:
> Is Far Mastery a wallpaper card ? I think not; still, the restrictions are the same (ok, Far Mastery works on retainers too, but it's usually not the effects that is used)
>
> Basically, this is a "steal ally" effect since the ally is locked and remains locked (albeit On the Qui Vive) but:
> 1/ the effect ends when the last copy leaves play (that's a drawback)
> 2/ you can copy the ally multiple times (that's an advantage)
>
The things is, people rarely put Far Mastery into their decks in great quantities. Even if you might run up against a War Ghoul explosion or some horrific Garou deck, working backwards through tournament winning decks, more than 2 is rare. ( Giovanni Camarada is something of an outlier with four.) So you've got:
- two disadvantages - no retainers, and fragile/temporary,
- one slightly dubious advantage, because if Far Mastery is the power level you're aiming for, people don't play it in large enough quantities that you're even likely to find yourself copying three War Ghouls.
(Note that if you do ever find yourself wanting to copy three War Ghouls, you've copied its text, and it's just entered play - there wasn't a copy of a War Ghoul in play, and there is now) - so what are you burning?)
There is one other slight advantage, in that you could potentially get an ally with inferior Obtenebration rather than superior Dominate. But there, the problem is that if you're playing Obtenebration, you're probably also playing a lot of Dominate because - absent something crazy like Create a Clan, or a really bizarre crypt selection - if you play Obtenebration and are playing a vaguely coherent deck, you're getting Dominate along with it.
However, what I would probably do is move the card - or something very close to it - to a different discipline and/or clan, where it doesn't already have access to Dominate and could at least find it a more interesting choice. Some sort of chimerical illusion that is vastly less expensive than Sensory Deprivation? A diabolical copy from a Baali deck?
I am not fond of this idea in general. I feel that its better to make decent standalone allies and retainers rather than something like this which has a chance of creating, rules problems, broken situations and/or lots of rules clarifications in the card text itself.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
On the other hand, I'm a fan of the thematics of this card. It shares the same flavor space with Shadow Twin, and thus I'm not sold on it being integrated into other disciplines. Chimestry is not that far fetched for sure, but there's nothing wrong with Obtenebration as such. The theme works.
The effect is pretty cool as well. The thing is though, as others have pointed out, that it's instantly comparable to Entrancement and Far Mastery. This is effectively a weaker version of either, I'm sure everyone agrees (and both are cards that Lasombra have easy access to).
Having a secondary effect is what could be done. That's usually incentive enough to put multiple copies in a deck. As this card shines when spammed, as opposed to the steal effects, having (even a minor) secondary effect could be nice to make it not a dead card in non-ally tables.
Other would be making it able to target your own allies as well, but with further restrictions. It's not a complete clone - rather it only copies stats, but blanks the text. Or, it copies all the text, but reverts all stats (Strength, Life, Bleed) to 1. Or anything in between.
Many ally copy cards, and some allies, have the text that it can't gain any life. You could add that as balance as well.
I would probably prefer to add a blood cost and a secondary effect. Maybe for inferior. I think Jblacey has a good direction.
Shadow Clone
1
+1 Stealth action
Attach to a ready minion. The next time this minion would unlock, burn Shadow Clone instead of unlocking him or her.
Choose an ally [controlled by another methuselah if you will]. If successful, that ally does not unlock as normal as long as Shadow Clone is in play. Put this card in play as a copy of that ally (it does not contest), with [restrictions of your choosing].
That way the inferior does not share space with just a better Mind Numb in a better discipline.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
That captures well the flavor. The idea was to have a shadow Doppleganger impersonating some ally. Adding a different inferior effect may do the trick.
Shadow Clone
1
+1 stealth action.
Put this card on a ready unlocked minion, and lock that minion. During the attached minion's untap phase, burn this card instead of unlocking the attached minion.
Lock a ready ally controlled by another Methuselah, and put this card in play; it becomes a copy of that ally with 1 life that does not contest that ally. That ally does not unlock as normal during its unlock phase.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> That captures well the flavor. The idea was to have a shadow Doppleganger impersonating some ally. Adding a different inferior effect may do the trick.
>
> Shadow Clone
>
> 1
> +1 stealth action.
> Put this card on a ready unlocked minion, and lock that minion. During the attached minion's untap phase, burn this card instead of unlocking the attached minion.
> Lock a ready ally controlled by another Methuselah, and put this card in play; it becomes a copy of that ally with 1 life that does not contest that ally. That ally does not unlock as normal during its unlock phase.
>
This looks specific and interesting enough to me.
Prince of Magdeburg
VEKN-ID: 5850005
Prince-ID: 615
So, what are your thoughts on this as is being just a more powerful Mind Numb from a discipline that isn't that tap&bleed oriented but stealth and tricks?
I mean sure, if that's what's aimed at, but I'd take a look at the power just to avoid creep. Remove either the lock effect, the persistent lock effect, something something?
As it's written, the shadow clone of Black Spiral Buddy and Renegade Garou regenerate up to 3 life (or if they don't I don't seem to understand VtES rules templating as well as I should like). Shadow clone Ossian gains life.
I'd kinda like to see the text "cannot gain life; all life gained is lost" here. Not basing it on any balancing, but flavor.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
> Kraus wrote:
> As it's written, the shadow clone of Black Spiral Buddy and Renegade Garou regenerate up to 3 life (or if they don't I don't seem to understand VtES rules templating as well as I should like). Shadow clone Ossian gains life.
>
Well, you'd be lucky to play with gentlemen of taste that play Black Spiral Buddy in their decks
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Kraus wrote:
> > As it's written, the shadow clone of Black Spiral Buddy and Renegade Garou regenerate up to 3 life (or if they don't I don't seem to understand VtES rules templating as well as I should like). Shadow clone Ossian gains life.
> >
> Well, you'd be lucky to play with gentlemen of taste that play Black Spiral Buddy in their decks
>
Hey, I did a couple of tournaments with a Sebastian Goulet OBF DOM THA deck back in the days! It totes had Buddies! The deck was named "My Next Best Buddy". When they start bleeding for 2-3, don't care about any other allies on the table, and you've access to OBF and DOM...
...
...I rarely got even an oust out.
WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME?! ;___;
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
> Ankha wrote:
> Name: Shadow Clone
> Cardtype: Action
> Discipline: Obtenebration
> +1 stealth action.
> [obt] Lock a ready ally controlled by another Methuselah, and put this card in play; it becomes a copy of that ally with 1 life that does not contest that ally. That ally does not unlock as normal during its unlock phase.
> [OBT] As above, with 2 life.
>
> EDIT : added the "controlled by another Methuselah" restriction
> EDIT: changed to starting life
> EDIT: removed starting life, it's not abusable anyway.
>
I sort of agree with earlier assessments, that if your own allies were not excluded or otherwise restricted, this could lead to number of broken things. (I just had an idea of Marcus Vitel making a million political allies with this and freak drive and [OBF] all of which would've bled for 3. He could even call psychic veil to give them all +1 stealth)
However, the restriction to allies controlled by other methuselahs will likely make this too weak to be of use. What if nobody plays allies? Maybe you could switch the clone part to superior obtenebration and have the small obt part be something like bleed with +1 bleed or +1 stealth? Compare to Entrancement and far mastery.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech