Are we getting previews for the new set, or is it just sometime in the next 10 days boom, available?
I'm fine with either, I just want non-slave gargoyle in any group but 1 and I'll make new decks. I'm running out of ideas that start with "Alabastrom feild trains malachai who feild trains a grotesque..."
Bumping the topic
Is anything new known about the new set ?
Do we know how long WW reviewed the previous sets ?
I was really hoping to see the new cards before Helloween
I also want more imbued.
Maybe even wuxia imbued, to go with my kuei jin. As seen through a Nollywood (Nigerian cinema) lens. (Meaning low budget melodrama with lots of chop socky kung fu & CG magic.)
Actually adding one (1) Imbued related card to every expansion would be a solid idea.
The current cardbase for them is so preciously small that you see only the few staple cards. Slowly adding new stuff might be a way to make remainder of them more playable too. And slow pace would ensure that it would be mighty difficult to break anything with the new cards.
Finnish Politics!
+1
For me, the vekn sets should have the goals to make more deck concepts viable and more cards from the current pool playable. For the imbued, there are 39 legal cards in NoR, and for the moment, I see max 10 of them playable in competetive decks.
Same with Laibon, there are many cards/decks that are almost playable at a tournament level, and a few vekn-cards could give them the push that they need.
Overkill is highly underrated. You know, like in computor games and such.
And we could bring in the Ashirra sect, and the Andu clan!
I'd actually really like the Ashirra sect, that'd be awesome. With Ashirra and greater Laibon support you could finally expand several clans that are currently drowning in a sea of the big seven with their antitribu counterparts.
You could even backwards expand! Fill in g1 and g2 for sect clans not represented during those times. Even go into negative numbers! (OK, maybe that last one is too much. But think of the Dark Ages... )
Ashirra covers Las, Nos, Bru, Tor, Gan, Mal, FoS, Ass, Rav, Cap, Sal, Baa, "Laibon."
Laibon covers Aku, Gur, Ish, Ose, Las, Tzi, Ass, FoS, Rav, and Cap, Sal.
There is plenty of design room!
(VTES is so far something like 98 symbols to learn, we just need two more for a round 100! We can do it! )
> Lönkka wrote:
> Actually adding one (1) Imbued related card to every expansion would be a solid idea.
>
I´d prefer banning Imbued from tournament play and never speak of them again
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Ashur wrote:
>
> > Lönkka wrote:
> > Actually adding one (1) Imbued related card to every expansion would be a solid idea.
> >
> I´d prefer banning Imbued from tournament play and never speak of them again
>
I like the imbued thematically. And they bring a solid competitive base standard in long-game attrition play that helps to weed out a good bit of "elaborate combo table fappening." I found the initially introduced Events were more disruptive upon early design (as per set theme, Gehenna, duh ), and imbued just ened up exposing that glaring, gaping loophole early. And thankfully so, because we could then take earlier pause about Event development -- global effects need way more consideration than others.
Imbued just became the easy scapegoat from these major legacy loopholes. It's the overlooked loopholes that became glaring, but the problem was always lying in wait.
As for myself, I'm currently with banning big bleeding to reduce the current over-necessity of bounce, still democratize bounce, democratize Voter Cap vote bloat, sprinkle way more untap (freaks n wakes), and graduate the game from its (IME) calcified, torpored 1994 thinking already. That way the game becomes more of a "rock, paper, scissors" contest of interactive attritions in: bounces, untaps, & non-master bloats. It liberates the game from the rather funny skew we've been living with for decades now.
> Azel wrote:
> I like the imbued thematically. And they bring a solid competitive base standard in long-game attrition play that helps to weed out a good bit of "elaborate combo table fappening."
>
They also do a good job of extending the length of the game, with their being tailor made for long-game attrition and all.
> As for myself, I'm currently with banning big bleeding to reduce the current over-necessity of bounce, still democratize bounce, democratize Voter Cap vote bloat, sprinkle way more untap (freaks n wakes), and graduate the game from its (IME) calcified, torpored 1994 thinking already.
>
In what way would what you propose above graduate the game? Most would just make this game take longer to play (no thanks). Banning big bleed and democratizing any bloat like Voter Cap is just asking for extending games past the 2-hour mark. Giving more opportunities to untap will also extend turns because a minion can only bleed once per turn. I'm with you on democratizing bounce, although, if doing so, make a flat rule that a methuselah can redirect a bleed only once per turn to avoid making the game a bounce fest, and also avoid making strong decks stronger.
> That way the game becomes more of a "rock, paper, scissors" contest of interactive attritions in: bounces, untaps, & non-master bloats. It liberates the game from the rather funny skew we've been living with for decades now.
>
I hear this a lot, that VTES has "evolved" into a game of chance. It's like people forget that VTES is a card game. You shuffle the cards. There's is built-in a randomization process. Hence why there is all the randomness in attritions in certain effects. That's how card games work, and that's how VTES has always been. If you want to remove that aspect, then you need to change VTES into something other than a card game.
> Azel wrote:
> As for myself, I'm currently with banning big bleeding to reduce the current over-necessity of bounce,
>
This doesn't tend to work as well as you think it might. While it's never been outright banned, the introduction of Archon Investigation and Protected Resources in the core V:TES set (post Jyhad) meant a lot of people stopped playing anything that looked like big bleed temporarily. A number of people were particularly upset that an Inner Circle (all of them in DS had +2 bleed) playing any bleed modifier at all could just be burned. Things settled down later, obviously, but a few lessons did come out of it.
Broadly, stealth-bleed is unaffected by this sort of thing. Wherever the limit is set, it builds itself around bleeding for that, at stealth. Depending on the exact deck, this can also mean it goes for slightly smaller vampires if the superior discipline becomes slightly less useful (though you can still have a clutch of DOM vampires for superior Deflection). Weenie bleed tends similarly to be unaffected - bleed for 2 or 3 a lot evading any cap on big bleeding.
A number of toolboxy decks are less competitive but like big bleeds, occasionally. A bruise-bleed deck that is doing other actions but wants to push through a single bleed for 6 (Govern + superior Conditioning, any bleed of five plus Pentex Loves You) isn't really hurting you any more than the stealth bleed deck bleeding you for three with three vampires, and nor is the Toreador wall deck that wants to shove through a Legal Manipulations and Aire of Elation occasionally. They can be hurt quite a bit by caps.
Along similar lines, any deck with a more limited number of actions may also want to make the actions it has as good as possible. For example, if I'm playing reasonably large vampires and can play Freak Drive or similar a lot, I can do some bleeding and some other actions. If I can't play Freak Drive style tech, I have to choose between bleeding and some other actions - so when I bleed, I may want to make the most of it.
Bleedzookas that stacked up a ton of permanents etc. on one vampire weren't really a thing in the same way, in that you had fewer options for doing it. However, if you set a limit on big bleeding, it would obviously hurt such decks. They're not unplayable currently, though they can obviously be a bit fragile in terms of getting hit by a variety of defences.
Imbued doing the long game doesn't bother me. All CCG play will have a long game regardless, only its turn size to get to it will be relative. It's the strength of play during which that'd matter.
The big delay of game is the continuous table talk and deal making. That by far, in my humble experience, eclipses everything else. And though it may be more egregious in vote deck strategies, it is nowhere near tied to that strategy alone. But there is no way to really stop that.
What I would like to see is a greater reinforcement of 3-player viability. THAT is the big limiter, and why multiplayer pick up games pale in frequency to duel CCGs. VTES shines with 5 players, but the lack of an interesting 3 player would be a good design place to explore.
As for the "rock, paper, scissors" you are reading me grossly wrong. We already know about CCGs and their randomization. The whole point of deck building is the mitigation of probability thereof into greater reliability. This commentary advances nothing.
What I am talking about is ratios of competing defenses; some decks will pack 'more paper than rock'. But all decks have to juggle a bit of bloat, untap, direct defense (block/reduce/bounce). Similar to how we believe all decks have to account for bleed, vote, and combat into our deck slots. And the more we can minimize our mitigation packages gives us positive slots to focus on our offense package.
Thus the paper, rock, scissors is to diversify our mitigation into other minimizable packages -- basically stop the skew of grafted dom because it has the tightest mitigation package directly attached to a strong offense package.
But then we found there is an abusable upper limit to big bleed as well, hence Return to Innocence being banned. So there is a middle ground and a noticeable gap in readily available defenses. The question then becomes how do you democratise bounce, and then subsequently diversify bounce defense, as a single big bleed is pulling out multiple copies of bounce defense?
Make weaker bounces that have bleed reduction built in?
Make minions heavily damaged or dunked, not destroyed? (the obt pot cards really didn't show the promise of "damage acting minion on a successful bleed.")
Other? (bounce is a hard act to follow, let alone design laterally competitively.)
> Azel wrote:
> As for the "rock, paper, scissors" you are reading me grossly wrong.
>
If I am reading you wrong, it is because you are not doing a good job of conveying yourself clearly. Don't blame the reader, just write better.
> What I am talking about is ratios of competing defenses; some decks will pack 'more paper than rock'. But all decks have to juggle a bit of bloat, untap, direct defense (block/reduce/bounce). Similar to how we believe all decks have to account for bleed, vote, and combat into our deck slots. And the more we can minimize our mitigation packages gives us positive slots to focus on our offense package.
>
> Thus the paper, rock, scissors is to diversify our mitigation into other minimizable packages -- basically stop the skew of grafted dom because it has the tightest mitigation package directly attached to a strong offense package.
>
I understand exactly what you are saying. I am disagreeing with your assertion that minimizing mitigation packages makes for a superior game. It's just not the case in card games. And your previous post made it seem like the game evolved into this reliance on dominate and mitigation packages from some previous ideal that never existed. This reliance on mitigation strategies has been the case since 1994, and it's been the case since 1994 because that's pretty much how all card games operate. There are trumps that you need to include in your deck that you shuffle and draw randomly to mitigate common effects that your opponents may or may not use in the game. Sometimes you draw paper to your opponent's rock. Other times, you draw scissors to your opponents rock. That's card games.
> elotar wrote:
> Imbued should go.
>
Agreed
Its not that they are too good or anything, They are just a design failure on so many levels.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
In the next set, I would respectfully ask the powers that be to print a new art for Direct intervention.
Harold MacNeill is one of the card artists whose art I despise the most, and DI has no other art than MacNeills (unlike sudden). Meaning I have to look at that abomination far too often for my liking, even in my own decks.
MacNeill being a nazi may also be a factor. Please lets reprint DI.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
I actually really like MacNeill's work, he's one of the few artists in VtES with a more abstract style and I much prefer his versions of Seduction and Sudden Reversal.
> edrazeeba wrote:
> I actually really like MacNeill's work, he's one of the few artists in VtES with a more abstract style and I much prefer his versions of Seduction and Sudden Reversal.
>
Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but I don't think more alternative art options would be bad. Especially in the case of such a controversial artist.
ps. Also thanks for taking your time to voice your opinion in this matter, seeing that you post approx two posts per year.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
I was unaware of any controversy but looking at his facebook just gave me a good laugh. I mean how can you take a "nazi" seriously when they are *that* obsessed with HP Lovecraft and stripper butts? Also, I much prefer his commercial work for VtES and Magic, his personal stuff is a bit uninspired IMO.
Not to derail this whole thread, I'm still catching up on a lot of the expansions that came out during the decade or so I didn't play, so honestly I'm not really sure what I'd like to see in VtES.
I do have a question about the new set though: In the September newsletter it's mentioned in the Design Team News that the new set is called "Bloodlines," is that just a working title? Won't it be confusing with two different expansions with the same name?
> edrazeeba wrote:
> Not to derail this whole thread
>
By all means go ahead. This thread was already derailed after the 3rd post.
Prince of Dallas
Toreador Grand Ball: Dallas
August 13, 2022
> edrazeeba wrote:
> I was unaware of any controversy but looking at his facebook just gave me a good laugh. I mean how can you take a "nazi" seriously when they are *that* obsessed with HP Lovecraft and stripper butts? Also, I much prefer his commercial work for VtES and Magic, his personal stuff is a bit uninspired IMO.
>
I don't actually know much about him or his beliefs (I just hate his art), but was told that his card art is no longer welcome to big card game publishers (I assume wizards of the coast at least, since they are pretty tight about their family-friendliness these days)
MacNeill did among other things include Ku Klux Clan in an actual card art. Kinda funny don't you think?
imgur.com/a/6v5xu
> ruiza97 wrote:
> By all means go ahead. This thread was already derailed after the 3rd post.
>
Its not like there was much discussion to be had about the actual topic.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
>
> > edrazeeba wrote:
> > but was told that his card art is no longer welcome to big card game publishers (I assume wizards of the coast at least, since they are pretty tight about their family-friendliness these days)
> >
> Hmmm, this is the first time I hear about such a ban (by others that VEKN).
>
> Are you absolutely sure someone just didn't confuse VEKN point of view ("We do not give money nazis") with WotC etc PoW?
>
> That being said, I really enjoy the VTES pieces he did.
> Very unique, very styled, very appropriate (for the theme of VTES).
>
Finnish Politics!
His art is extremely cool. His political views may not be so cool, or maybe he does not really mean it thinking that artists words should compliment his art.
Second part may be a problem, if we are going to vote for him for some government position. But as I understand we are not discussing this.
As an artist for a dark gothic game he is much more capable, than many clueless others, who paint "kawaii vampires" .
NC Russia
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> Hmmm, this is the first time I hear about such a ban (by others that VEKN).
>
> Are you absolutely sure someone just didn't confuse VEKN point of view ("We do not give money nazis") with WotC etc PoW?
>
Well, his last artwork in a new MtG set is from 1997(tempest). Make of that what you will.
Considering Wizards hires artists by commission rather than long-term, theres not really any proof to be had. They simply didn't commission him again. Its only a rumour that they blacklisted him, but its a pretty believable rumor considering the amount of 'discussion' surrounding him. These days he is very difficult to find, apparently . Which says something about an artist. I believe he became a persona non grata in ccg circles.
About art: I personally want card art to actually depict what the card does. Paint a picture of what is happening in-world when I play the card. McNeills art is too detached and too abstract to my liking. Not to mention he hates colors, while I enjoy colors. Almost all his card art is monochrome.
While I appreciate abstract art (one of my favorite artists is Paul Klee), I don't think abstract art has a place in card games. I want card art to supplement my imagination when I'm playing a game.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
>
> About art: I personally want card art to actually depict what the card does. Paint a picture of what is happening in-world when I play the card..
>
This is why i like the old conditioning. looks like the vamp is at a hair salon
> narpassword wrote:
> ... looks like the vamp is at a hair salon
>
That's the problem with "realistic" art - you can get completely different meaning from them, which is exceptionally true for cards involving methuselahs.
If we take "Personal Involvement", which also intended to show actions of metuselah - it always looked to me like some old fart harassing woman at cheap sea resort. "Abstract" art helps to show feeling of the action, which players transform with there imagination into specific events corresponding to their table position (sorry for my English).
Actually for me even straight cards, for example weapons, looks dumb if it just show a weapon. Yea for Saturday Night Special its meaningful, but everybody knows what Assault Rifle is, give us some reason to look at the art.
By the way, flavor text is even bigger problem - most of them just pointlessly takes card space.
NC Russia
> Bloodartist wrote:
> Well, his last artwork in a new MtG set is from 1997(tempest). Make of that what you will.
>
WotC gave the boot to MANY old artists when they changed the way how they paid the artists (or actually WotC changed the contracts and plenty of the old guard artists didn't sign the new ones).
In the early days they gave artists a small sum but, as they had very little money to actually give, also a percentage based on the sales. As MtG became the runaway hit it did the amount money the artists ended up getting was CONSIDERABLE.
It could be that he left the company that time.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> About art: I personally want card art to actually depict what the card does. Paint a picture of what is happening in-world when I play the card. McNeills art is too detached and too abstract to my liking. Not to mention he hates colors, while I enjoy colors. Almost all his card art is monochrome.
>
Limited palette, especially monochrome, tends to work very well for especially for vampire themed things!
> Bloodartist wrote:
> I don't think abstract art has a place in card games. I want card art to supplement my imagination when I'm playing a game.
>
Heh, I think you are contradicting yourself right there!
Non-photorealistic art sure sparks up the imagination way better than photorealistic art.
YMMV
Finnish Politics!
I like Harold McNeil's art (though the dude is hateful and a disgrace). Take Direct Intervention: the splash of red is beautiful, the hand evokes some kind of intervention from above, that's enough for my imagination.
As elotar pointed out, Personal Involvment's art is weak. Abstract things can (should?) be represented by abstract art.
Enkil Cog's art should have been more abstract in my opinion.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I'd love to have a splash of more abstraction in the art for the future. The latest art style has been beautiful in a comprehensible and worldly way, but I do kind of miss the abstraction of Jyhad era cards. It really, really fits many Master cards (not locations obvi).
Sudden Reversal and Direct Intervention are great with their abstract art, and I'd love to see this more. Enkil Cog is a very good example of this. I would've loved a bit more abstraction in the art to be sure, even though it's technically fine.
Not that we'd need McNeil's art in itself. Just following some of that artistic direction would be awesome.
A: Netrunner is pretty cool with some of their internet-themed art. It's really weird and obscure at times.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
@ Elator: on the weapons thing, it annoys me to no end that the original 44 magnum isn't a 44 magnum in the picture. I'm not sure if it was just a wotc oversight, or if they checked it and knew nothing about guns, but it annoys me hard that we have boring revolver as the best art for the absolute staple gun for the game. As a "gun person" I can honestly say I have a bias towards revolvers, as they are more fun to shoot than other things, but if we get new art, I'd love better stuff on the 44. Like a shiny looking Colt python with a longer barrel (8", as longer barrel guns in art and media is often then indicator of more power, even though it has nothing to do with the muzzle velocity or any weight in hydrostatic shock if striking a Target, but I digress...) anyway, gun in the foreground, and then someone pretty in the background. Could be anarchy looking female similar to gem ghastly, or a cavelier shirtless version of Anson, just some vamp with some sort of sex appeal holding the gun....
Bloodartist: I typically like mostly real style art, with exception for some things; I love the Rebecca guay art on the torries in CE, it fits the feel of the clan. Alabastroms art is misaic-feeling, so I dig it on gargoyle card. Now, DI art isn't as good for the card as DI2, plainly showing a demonic hand stopping what's happening.
Art like on Keep it Simple that shows a basic story is good. Now, no idea what eleither kindred spirits is showing, and malls)!malks/kiasyd/some discipline stuff should have abstract stuff, for theme and mood. Just like you get a very leather and anger feel from g1 brujah, there should be solid "feeling" themes to cards, as I remember art being one of the most interesting parts of the game when I started really playing. It's very important.
chiming in, because I've meant to over the last few days.
I've long been a fan of MacNeil's brooding and abstract style and was really thrown for a loop when I learned that he was an actual Nazi. Im happy that VEKN will not condone his vile politics, and commission his works anymore.
That being said, I would like to see More dark and abstract art in the game.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> ...original 44 magnum isn't a 44 magnum in the picture. I'm not sure if it was just a wotc oversight, or if they checked it and knew nothing about guns, but it annoys me hard that we have boring revolver as the best art for the absolute staple gun for the game.
>
Art for original .44 is, buy my opinion, quite good except the gun itself (which can be honest mistake in the "preinternet" era - like, for example, the card was called "pistol" when the art was ordered) - there are something happening there except just showing us the gun we've seen thousand times.
New art shows the right gun but there are nothing else there. Boring and pointless.
NC Russia
> self wrote:
> ...that he was an actual Nazi.
>
As I remember, "actual Nazis" were the guys in the previous century in Germany, who killed millions of people as well as (with some help ) make whole world suffer deadliest war in human history.
Maybe I does not know something, but MacNeil cannot be one of them.
What I does know, thou, that limiting access of people to paid work on the basis of not of their ability to do it, but their political views, was (and is) one of the main means of totalitarian regimes (including said "actual Nazis").
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
>
> > ReverendRevolver wrote:
> > ...original 44 magnum isn't a 44 magnum in the picture. I'm not sure if it was just a wotc oversight, or if they checked it and knew nothing about guns, but it annoys me hard that we have boring revolver as the best art for the absolute staple gun for the game.
> >
> Art for original .44 is, buy my opinion, quite good except the gun itself (which can be honest mistake in the "preinternet" era - like, for example, the card was called "pistol" when the art was ordered) - there are something happening there except just showing us the gun we've seen thousand times.
>
> New art shows the right gun but there are nothing else there. Boring and pointless.
>
I couldn't disagree more about the art for the post-Sabbat era .44 Magnum. I think the watercolor style contributes a foreboding feel that matches the mood of someone getting their weapon ready for a fight, and the colors fit very well with the card layout colors (the green stripe, the equipment card "keys/bullets" background). That's a very underrated aspect to card art, whether the art fits the theme colors of the card layout.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> ...mood of someone getting their weapon ready for a fight...
>
I don't get it - picture looks static as hell. The guy at the picture should either be moving to meet his enemy, or crouching to be defensive, or even be staying with spread legs to "play cowboy". Also body part in the center of the picture is, maybe, anatomically correct, but I'm not sure is appropriate to the feeling we suppose to get from this card.
The colors are fine, thou.
NC Russia
> elotar wrote:
>
> > TwoRazorReign wrote:
> > ...mood of someone getting their weapon ready for a fight...
> >
> I don't get it - picture looks static as hell. The guy at the picture should either be moving to meet his enemy, or crouching to be defensive, or even be staying with spread legs to "play cowboy". Also body part in the center of the picture is, maybe, anatomically correct, but I'm not sure is appropriate to the feeling we suppose to get from this card.
>
> The colors are fine, thou.
>
It looks like somebody arming themselves with a gun before the fight happens. Which reflects what happens in game when you equip minions, a stealthy action to equip one's self. I think the art on .44 Magnum fits better than the art on, for example, Poker, where the action in the art doesn't match the effect. Using a Poker is not going to burn a minion via decapitation.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> It looks like somebody arming themselves with a gun before the fight happens. Which reflects what happens in game when you equip minions, a stealthy action to equip one's self.
>
Equipping the gun is very costly (2 pool = Protracted Investment!) action - i justify it as a serious organizational effort by vampire to not only get a gun, but also provide legal coverage, which allow travel and making other activities with it without raising questions. Which, actually, will be much more interesting being shown in the art
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> I think the art on .44 Magnum fits better than the art on, for example, Poker, where the action in the art doesn't match the effect. Using a Poker is not going to burn a minion via decapitation.
>
.44 is plain, Poker is directly wrong, yea.
NC Russia
> Ankha wrote:
> As elotar pointed out, Personal Involvment's art is weak. Abstract things can (should?) be represented by abstract art.
> Enkil Cog's art should have been more abstract in my opinion.
>
Without more information, though, it's difficult to know whether the issue is that the artist involved did something poor/annoying/uninspired/dull/whatever, or whether the commission they were given was fairly specific but dull. There are definitely artists who've produced some great card art, but who've also produced some card art where I think it's boring as hell - maybe they had a really free hand and created a bit of a dud, or maybe they created exactly what WotC/WW/LSJ/whoever told them to draw in a lot of detail.
Plus, there are also a few cases where we know a piece of card art was drummed up at the last minute to meet a deadline because something went wrong (e.g. an artist fell ill). And I wouldn't be particularly surprised if at some points in the past, artists have said "I can't meet that deadline for a specific commission right now, but I drew this last year in my spare time if you're interested..."
> Kraus wrote:
> I'd love to have a splash of more abstraction in the art for the future. The latest art style has been beautiful in a comprehensible and worldly way, but I do kind of miss the abstraction of Jyhad era cards. It really, really fits many Master cards (not locations obvi).
>
> Sudden Reversal and Direct Intervention are great with their abstract art, and I'd love to see this more. Enkil Cog is a very good example of this. I would've loved a bit more abstraction in the art to be sure, even though it's technically fine.
>
But I don't see a particular need for fully abstract art in either DI or sudden reversal. Both do depict a specific quantifiable thing: The methuselah (you) acting directly in the matter. Not necessarily physically, but still. In my opinion DI art should be similar to art in Ancient influence. Something is happening, and its the ancient vampire doing it, but exactly how is up for interpretation. In DI's case it could depict an agent for the other methuselah being delayed by some unforeseen event or getting ambushed by some gang or car breaking down or whatever (all of these are being caused by the opposing methuselah ofc). Just to give few ideas. A vague form in a fog with a red splash doesn't satisfy me.
I just think that the art in DI is a cheap way to achieve the minimum criteria required of a card art, and the red splash is more of a cheap cop-out since this is a vampire game. 'O, its a vampire game so I add this red splash'. And I do feel DI art doesn't satisfy the criteria.
@Lönkka: Card art doesn't have to be photorealistic to instill imagination. But it should depict SOMEthing.
I think the original art of Enkil Cog is a good example of what I want from a card. Its got its own specific art style yet depicts an actual event: A methuselah is mentally influencing(the eyes) a public figure who is speaking to the masses. I don't even know what Enkil Cog means in the lore, but the card itself makes sense well enough.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
> I think the original art of Enkil Cog is a good example of what I want from a card. Its got its own specific art style yet depicts an actual event: A methuselah is mentally influencing(the eyes) a public figure who is speaking to the masses. I don't even know what Enkil Cog means in the lore, but the card itself makes sense well enough.
>
The relation between a card that allows a 10+ cap vampire to act out of your turn and a "public figure who is speaking to the masses" is very tenuous.
So, it could have depicted a squirrel eating a nut, and you would still have been satisfied?
I mean, when the subject is as vague (or unknown) as this, anything could represent it. After all, why couldn't a squirrel be "the" Enkil Cog? Or a red splash of color?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Bloodartist wrote:
> > The relation between a card that allows a 10+ cap vampire to act out of your turn and a "public figure who is speaking to the masses" is very tenuous.
> > So, it could have depicted a squirrel eating a nut, and you would still have been satisfied?
> > I mean, when the subject is as vague (or unknown) as this, anything could represent it. After all, why couldn't a squirrel be "the" Enkil Cog? Or a red splash of color?
> >
> I disagree. Its not a tenuous connection at all. It can just be one of MANY different things the image depicts and one was picked. You can use enkil cog to call a vote on a political card. Not seen often, but could be whats happening here. Its still a methuselah-level vampire (10 cap) that's doing stuff here, not a squirrel. Bleed depicts attacking another players influence (such as political clout), so +bleed makes sense also. The eyes are still depicting the methuselah player, the person speaking to the audience is probably the 10-cap. It all makes sense.
>
> I admit that I don't know what the actual "enkil cog" is, but the image is depicting the card text well enough. Sometimes card titles in VTES are too obscure.
>
> Saying that anything could represent this card seems like mentally giving up too easy. Just need to understand the context.
>
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
Does anybody know anything about Enkil lore wise in V:TM? This was an Anne Rice character and I don't get why there is a VTES card referencing him. That said, apparently Enkil's role is to protect the first ever vampire from being destroyed (which is not Caine in Anne Rice's universe). That must by why the card lets one act on another's turn, sort of interrupting another's plans. I think the art could have reflected this better.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> Does anybody know anything about Enkil lore wise in V:TM? This was an Anne Rice character and I don't get why there is a VTES card referencing him. That said, apparently Enkil's role is to protect the first ever vampire from being destroyed (which is not Caine in Anne Rice's universe). That must by why the card lets one act on another's turn, sort of interrupting another's plans. I think the art could have reflected this better.
>
I would have to re-read some material, notably book of nod, revelations of the dark mother, and E-fragments, but to my knowledge, there is no enkil in WoD.
Other wiser and better players than I also knew nothing but the Anne Rice thing. Maybe Enkil is one of those non-procreating antdeluvians? Maybe it's another name for a known antideluvian?
Most likely, they had a cool card in KoT and needed a cool name. Scott isn't on here much, but maybe someone could ask him in passing some time? I haven't seen him in person for many years.
I'd like to say I like the feeling of the KoT art and love the anthology depiction as well. It's a lucky card, to get 2 great pieces of art.
Also, I like the art for Victoria but I'm not too keen on the original Leandro. Anyone else feel similar?
I liked the original Leandro, but the Camarilla Edition Leandro is far, far superior. I can tell it's a Malkavian by just looking at that art. Same thing for Sir Walter Nash (Ventrue), Theo Bell (Brujah), Jost Werner (Toreador antitribu), and Lord Vauxhall (Lasombra). For Nosferatu, the best art is when you can't tell it's a Nosferatu, like Baron Dieudonne using superior obfuscate to look like a creepy 1930's lawyer. That said, Sheldon's half-monster, half-Victorian-era judge look makes for great art as well. And some of the best art in the game involves Gangrel out in nature (Basilia, Zack North, Wynn).
But most of the art for Tzcimisce looks terrible to me, but that's because I think vicissitude is dumb. Same with any art involving snakes, middle-eastern assassins, mafiosos holding skulls, vampire mages, vampire gypsies/grifters, vampire devil worshipers, vampire hunters, vampires with third eyes, gargoyles, and redundant bloodlines like samedi, Daughters, Trujah, ahrimanes (we already had great art with Nosferatu, Toreador, Brujah, and Gangrel, respectively, thanks very much).
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> it annoys me to no end that the original 44 magnum isn't a 44 magnum in the picture. I'm not sure if it was just a wotc oversight, or if they checked it and knew nothing about guns, but it annoys me hard that we have boring revolver as the best art for the absolute staple gun for the game. As a "gun person"
>
I'm derailing this discussion even further...
What puzzled me more is the art in the Sabbat/10th Anniversary version of Sub-machine Gun as it looks way more like an assault rifle than a SMG:
I just finally tried to quickly check which gun it was but couldn't google a definite match. FN FNC seemed to be closest match but it also is too far off.
Perhaps you or another gun enthusiast could help me satisfy my curiosity?
Finnish Politics!
I've never paid much attention to the "new" art, as I got the other 10AE tin, but:
The newer one looks like it's trying to be an AK47. Obviously, there's one of them in vtes, but it reminds me of that, based upon the muzzle. The magazine is kinda wide, but it's not supposed to be photo realistic.
The original I always thought was an MP5, but could be something else. Vityaz sn maybe. Possibly the FN....
But again, it's not a photo.
The technical difference between an assault rifle and a submachine gun is the former shoots rifle bullets and the latter typically handgun bullets.
I'm not a rifle fan. You sight it in, you probably hit whatever you aim at. Handguns are substantially more challenging, you feel more accomplished being able to consistently hit where you want with them.
But I digress:
If the SMG gets reprinted, an Uzi style gun should be in the art so there's less oddness than now. Also, the AK47 in vtes should've been a Thompson, since a Thompson shoots similar sized handgun bullets as the Desert Eagle (2R) and is automatic(additional strike). That would have Freed up AK47s for later Assault rifle art.
> Lönkka wrote:
>
Now that someone else mentioned it, the art does look a bit like an extremely distorted H&K MP5 , the mainstay of hollywood movies whenever you needed a special ops team with submachineguns. Comparison: www.dndguns.com/images/dsc01312.gif
The image in the card however seems like almost a mix between MP5 and an assault rifle.. LIt looks like it was "stretched" and the clip was shrunk down. Sometimes artists make guns that are only vaguely shaped like guns, sometimes even without any moving parts! Maybe this artist changed the dimensions in order to fill the space in the picture better, considering artistic values more important than "photorealism".
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
> Does anybody know anything about Enkil lore wise in V:TM?
>
"Enkil" is another name for Enoch IIRC, one of the three 2nd gens in VtM. They did lift the name from Anne Rice though.
Wouldn't it be funny if Paradox already reviewed the new set and are just printing it to sell before they tell the DT anything?
I'd be amused and happy
not yet.
I'm sure that when there's news to tell there'll be an announcement thread and a post on the front page and you'll see it smeared all over the facebook groups, too.
just to save everyone the hassle, there's still no news regarding the release date of the next PDF set from VEKN.
In other news, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
AFAIK It is dem White Wolves that make us wait.
Seriously, how long can reviewing a dozen or two new cards take!?
Without knowing anything I'd be inclined to claim that someone is "busy" with other things and not willing to take 20 minutes to go through the cards...
(I can kinda understand this as I'm perpetually busy myself)
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> AFAIK It is dem White Wolves that make us wait.
>
> Seriously, how long can reviewing a dozen or two new cards take!?
> Without knowing anything I'd be inclined to claim that someone is "busy" with other things and not willing to take 20 minutes to go through the cards...
>
> (I can kinda understand this as I'm perpetually busy myself)
>
Have you considered the SUPER far-fetched idea that they are considering a revamp or an "Anthologiesque" release and are biding their time to see if this set will be part of it?
I know, I know, there's a better chance Rey is a Kenobi...
Yea, I'm hoping for no announcement and then Ben posting a link to WW to buy the set.....
Still hoping Rey is Boba Fetts daughter.
We knowno so little of Mandarian clone biology and reproductive cycles, you Know?
> Brum wrote:
>
> > Lönkka wrote:
> > AFAIK It is dem White Wolves that make us wait.
> >
> > Seriously, how long can reviewing a dozen or two new cards take!?
> > Without knowing anything I'd be inclined to claim that someone is "busy" with other things and not willing to take 20 minutes to go through the cards...
> >
> > (I can kinda understand this as I'm perpetually busy myself)
> >
> Have you considered the SUPER far-fetched idea that they are considering a revamp or an "Anthologiesque" release and are biding their time to see if this set will be part of it?
>
> I know, I know, there's a better chance Rey is a Kenobi...
>
Ben Kenobi? (Lol)
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Ben
>
Kenobi theory confirmed!
Half-Life 3 too as we started rolling.
Krausedit\\ Gah, was so excited I "got it" (u know) that I didn't even read Thelonius' response... Ninja'd on a very long delay?
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
Back to the original question:
Is there any news on the new set?
"It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality"
---
Hardy Range
Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager
Not intent on bitching about it but how long can reviewing some PDF sheets take?
I'm under the assumption they wanted to check the artwork to see if it fit their idea of the WoD/Vampire setting. And perhaps check the text part there ain't anything overtly unfitting included in it. This should take someone no more than an hour.
Either they are playtesting the already well playtested cards (this certainly can't be the case) or are just constantly finding some way more important chores to do and the reviewing of the cards will sink all the more deeper into oblivion with each passing day.
Perhaps the WW people will need to be occasionally politely reminded that it sure would be nice if they could review the cards the sooner the better.
Finnish Politics!
If there were legal considerations, wouldn't that mean they'd have to make the other pdf expansions unavailable, also?
There's a small part of me that really, really wants to believe it's because they're planning something big, but I fear it's actually because WW just doesn't really care.
> kschaefer wrote:
> Maybe, they're holding off releasing the set as some kind of social experiment to determine the demand for new sets?
>
Unlikely.
V:tes, from what I remember Ben posting about, was profitable when CCP took over the brand.
Paradox has publicly stated that it liked V:tes a few years ago.
Contracts and legalities can move very, very slowly. As someone who has had to sign Non-Disclosure agreements, it can be months or even years before something can be acknowledged by someone who Knows A Thing.
V:tes dovetails nicely with what we know about the impending V5 Vampire: the Masquerade setting.
My guess is that the VEKN IC is most likely further in the know than we in the public are, we just can't know because of NDAs.
The Bloodlines cards have been reviewed and approved by White Wolf.
However, as we have said previously, we have been in discussions in order to see if there is any chance to get these cards in print rather than have them be a PDF release.
Therefore, the release of the Bloodlines set is on hold until a decision is made on that.
V:EKN Website Coordinator
Heck, in that case, take all the time you guys need... and while you're at it, feel free to include as many cards from the previous expansions as possible
> Cat_in_Exile wrote:
> Heck, in that case, take all the time you guys need... and while you're at it, feel free to include as many cards from the previous expansions as possible
>
I second this. If we can get all the previous expansions printed that would be great. Hope it all works out.
That would be way too expensive. But fingers crossed for at least one set.
Baron of Turku
*************************
I am love, I am smile /
I am the Earth defiled.
Follow-up answers to some questions in this thread:
> kschaefer wrote:
> So, has the delay on getting the next set out the door, also delayed the work on the set following it as well?
>
Copy-pasting my response to the same question on the VTES WORLD group on Facebook:
Yes and no? Mike Nudd and I wanted to do a follow-up Bloodlines set that covers the clans we didn't cover in Lost Kindred. However, when I discussed the matter with White Wolf when I was in Stockholm, they told me to hold off on doing so as they haven't yet finalized their plans for Bloodlines clans in V5. Luckily, what we developed for Lost Kindred happened to be close enough in line with what they're thinking for those clans that we didn't have to scrap the set - we only had to make some minor revisions to some artwork.
I also mentioned to White Wolf that we also want to do a Camarilla set, partly due to game need (such as filling out G5 Cam crypt) and partly because we wanted to tie into V5. They're on board with that idea and that's what we're presently developing, though it's in the very early stages.
> kschaefer wrote:
> What about previews then? Do we need to have the print vs. PDF thing settled before that?
>
The problem with doing previews right now is that previews have this tendency to set expectations that the release of the set is imminent. As much as we could release the PDF the moment we got the green light for it, we honestly don't know if and when that will be. And as we've seen, these processes take far longer than people on the outside looking in would expect, to an excruciating degree. If the decision is made to not allow a PDF release but instead go forward with printing them as actual cards, that release will take a little longer, as well.
> elotar wrote:
> If there is NDA involved maybe they can tell us that it's a case?
>
We (the VEKN ICs) are under a confidentiality agreement with White Wolf.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> So, is there a name yet?
>
Lost Kindred.
> AceFranklin wrote:
> I second this. If we can get all the previous expansions printed that would be great. Hope it all works out.
>
> Lenny wrote:
> That would be way too expensive. But fingers crossed for at least one set.
>
The funny part is it would be the cheapest thing to do, given that White Wolf still has the original artwork files. The big cost would be the time needed to prepare the cards for printing.
> BenPeal wrote:
> The funny part is it would be the cheapest thing to do, given that White Wolf still has the original artwork files. The big cost would be the time needed to prepare the cards for printing.
>
What about a second type anthology set, with a better set up for global distribution, but with the key cards newbies would need? Deflection, freak drives, Govern, PS, etc. All the staple power cards.
Honestly, why not aim for a new base set?
Strip most of the Sect-specific political stuff out of it, and have a modest 300-ish card set with new Camarilla vampires, Sabbat vamps from Danse Macabre, and Independent Vampires from The Unaligned. Just the most basic and essential cards for the game. This is even easier to do if the powers that be decided to fold Anti-tribu clans into their main clans.
Design a Starter Set, similar to the demo Decks, but with a more global theme: Tremere, Malkavian, Gangrel, Lasombra, and Tzimisce. That way each clan has its own unique discipline. Maybe even include a few exclusive cards for this set.
Release "expansion packs" to expand Sabbat/cam/anarch politics.
> self wrote:
> Honestly, why not aim for a new base set?
>
I believe most of the cards would require new art.
Besides the time it would take to do this, the monetary part would be too much, if the plan was not to start the game for real and for good, with a resident team, scheduled releases, etc..
> BenPeal wrote:
> The funny part is it would be the cheapest thing to do, given that White Wolf still has the original artwork files. The big cost would be the time needed to prepare the cards for printing.
>
How so? — if they already have the images in a digital format, then I don't see what the cost barrier is. Even if the images are not cropped / set correctly you're looking at a maximum two weeks work to crop and set 3000+ images manually.
Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook
> Ke. wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > The funny part is it would be the cheapest thing to do, given that White Wolf still has the original artwork files. The big cost would be the time needed to prepare the cards for printing.
> >
> How so? — if they already have the images in a digital format, then I don't see what the cost barrier is. Even if the images are not cropped / set correctly you're looking at a maximum two weeks work to crop and set 3000+ images manually.
>
The artwork file/folder/format structure of the art files is a special kind of hell. Imagine 20 years of evolving software, file formats, and changing art directors.
There's also a fair amount of other work that has to be done to get them ready. Gotta vet and update the card texts to match current templating. Gotta check the color correction for print (displaying on a screen isn't the same as the physical properties of inks). Gotta prepare the files for the printer. Gotta proofread. Etc.
Something I'd love to be able to do is make simple updates to a lot of older cards to improve them, like lower their blood or pool cost by one. I've done an audit of the card base and found that there are 750 or so library cards that have a good idea behind them but that just don't see play because the execution of the card is a bit off. Rather than wallpaper them by making a new card to replace them, perhaps they can be rehabilitated.
> BenPeal wrote:
> I've done an audit of the card base and found that there are 750 or so library cards that have a good idea behind them but that just don't see play because the execution of the card is a bit off.
>
Any chance you could share the results of the audit and the proposed fixes? That'd be interesting to see and fun to discuss on these forums.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > I've done an audit of the card base and found that there are 750 or so library cards that have a good idea behind them but that just don't see play because the execution of the card is a bit off.
> >
> Any chance you could share the results of the audit and the proposed fixes? That'd be interesting to see and fun to discuss on these forums.
>
Discussing those here in forum would probably result in never ending thread full of bickering...
But all in all that is VERY good an idea; quite a few cards, especially in older expansions are brutally expensive and, to make matters worse, often also contain remove clauses making them even more wallpaperish.
I understand the need to take baby steps while designing first expansion cards as to avoid totally overpowered cards but expensive wallpaper abounds especially in Dark Sovereigns
and Ancient Hearts.
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> Discussing those here in forum would probably result in never ending thread full of bickering...
>
no it wouldn't. Only a charlatan would express such an awful opinion.
> TwoRazorReign wrote:
>
> > BenPeal wrote:
> > I've done an audit of the card base and found that there are 750 or so library cards that have a good idea behind them but that just don't see play because the execution of the card is a bit off.
> >
> Any chance you could share the results of the audit and the proposed fixes? That'd be interesting to see and fun to discuss on these forums.
>
I haven't come up with a list of proposed fixes yet, as it's a fairly big project and I have other fish to fry at the moment. However, I'm thinking things like:
- What if Form of the Serpent didn't cost a blood?
- What if Retain the Quick Blood untapped you after performing the action?
- What if every Quietus card from Final Nights cost 1 less blood?
- Is there a simple adjustment to Zoning Board that can be made to make it viable?
Stuff like that. As for posting the results of the audit, I'm not sure about that as I don't want to give anyone the impression that a mass card banning is about to take place.
> BenPeal wrote:
> - What if Form of the Serpent didn't cost a blood?
> - What if Retain the Quick Blood untapped you after performing the action?
> - What if every Quietus card from Final Nights cost 1 less blood?
> - Is there a simple adjustment to Zoning Board that can be made to make it viable?
>
I'd have said that Zoning Board is different from the others. There's a lot more variety possible in minion cards for all sorts of reasons - they're generally easier to play, if you have certain disciplines (or clans etc.) you're pushed towards playing some different cards anyway, a weaker card may well stack easily with a stronger card so it's still potentially worth playing a reasonable number of both both (e.g. an okay stealth card and a good stealth card), a little variety might be good if Direct Intervention is super popular etc.
With master cards, you're really competing against (say) the top 20-30 generally available master cards, and the few that are good for your specific clan, sect, or trait, and you only play one proper master card a turn. A few might become reasonably competitive by switching them to a trifle. A few might become reasonably competitive by dropping the price. But a bunch are just really fiddly and really situational - even if a hypothetical somewhat okay master card becomes a trifle, it's still competing against Villein, Wash, maybe Wider View and Vessel - all of which are really good, and playable practically all the time. Many of the best master cards can be played at almost any point in games (e.g. Villein, Giant's Blood, Dreams of the Sphinx, most hand cyclers, Ventrue HQ, DI, Wash, Fame in a rush deck, intercept locations with walls, Ashur). The ones that are much more specific time wise (e.g. Week of Nightmares, Zillah's Valley, Frontal Assault, Legendary Vampire) or somewhat more situational (e.g. Anarch Troublemaker, Erciyes Fragment) tends to have really, really nice upsides. If a master card is pretty middle of the road in its effect and over-costed in terms of pool/master phase actions, simple fixes are going to make it really, really hard to compete with the likes of Villein or Pentex Subversion.
> Damnans wrote:
> We have been in discussions in order to see if there is any chance to get these cards in print rather than have them be a PDF release.
>
This has probably been asked before but...
because, and i'm just guessing here, White Wolf doesn't make money off of the .pdf sets. whereas with printed cards there's a licensing deal in place and will therefore generate revenue.
i was harrassing the play tester around me to know when this cards are up to be available for play... i better understand now.
and still eager to see them, but i Will be more patient...
I dare to suggest that if the decision take s a while or longer to make, the cards should be released as PDF set first.
Based on the sales of Anthology this will not affect the sales of physical cards to a large degree (if any)...
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> I dare to suggest that if the decision take s a while or longer to make, the cards should be released as PDF set first.
>
> Based on the sales of Anthology this will not affect the sales of physical cards to a large degree (if any)...
>
It's great to be able to build any deck you can imagine. It gives the creative freedom of JOL or Lackey, but in Real Life games. Being able to play that same killer deck in RL with the actual cards has a visceral pleasure that is hard to reproduce faithfully in any other way.
> Blooded wrote:
>
> > Lönkka wrote:
> > I dare to suggest that if the decision take s a while or longer to make, the cards should be released as PDF set first.
> >
> > Based on the sales of Anthology this will not affect the sales of physical cards to a large degree (if any)...
> >
> It's great to be able to build any deck you can imagine. It gives the creative freedom of JOL or Lackey, but in Real Life games. Being able to play that same killer deck in RL with the actual cards has a visceral pleasure that is hard to reproduce faithfully in any other way.
>
While is rather see physical cards only, it is worth noting that the release of these will differ substantially from Anthology:
Anthology was (initially) being distributed only to event goers to the EC, then it was announced to be attainable in smallish quantities by NAC players.(until DHL ate a pallet). Then it was announced for public availability, but with shipping being the actual cost of the set for a 1:1 ratio there for the western hemisphere.
So, it gaged that there was interest and people willing to pay.(and then some)
Also, the bulk of the set consisted of reprints of cards that are scarce in quantity but staples of the game, as well as first ever physical copies of pdfcards. The new stuff was a side bonus.
Lost Kindred as a physical set has even more variables, and 2 in particular seem to correlate to greater profitability if handled correctly, and those are inclusion of in demand reprints and distribution model.
First one isn't incredibly challenging, include things that coincide with the bloodlines and even former pdfonly cards that cost more than $1 on eBay and are in demand. Even things like Abbot and daring the dawn fall in here, although freak drive, eyes of Argus. Sirens lure, etc are a bigger driver.
Distribution becomes the question, as brick and mortar retailers aren't likely to want loads of risk, they're not really an answer, making it look like a plan treating it like the remaining WWinventory from ccp was sold, with companies on each region selling online.
Some sort of "pre order" may be needed, but an actual set in the format of anthology with better distribution could do quite well.