Keeping Up

Keeping Up Put this card on this vampire. Lock this card to Unlock this vampire. You may only unlock Keeping Up when a minion controlled by your predator unlocks outside of his or her controller's untap phase. Only one Keeping Up may be used each untap. As above, and untap this minion. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

"Only one Keeping Up may be used each untap." doesn't make sense because you can lock the card any time you want. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> direwolf wrote: > Only one Keeping Up may be used each untap. > Isn't it simpler to restrict this by "A vampire can have only one Keeping up". This way you also get a minor combo with house of sorrow. edit: I just realized house of sorrow works with Enkil cog. Hmmmmmm. > direwolf wrote: > Keeping Up > > Put this card on this vampire. Lock this card to Unlock this vampire. You may only unlock Keeping Up when a minion controlled by your predator unlocks outside of his or her controller's untap phase. Only one Keeping Up may be used each untap. > As above, and untap this minion. > The wording is somewhat confusing. Can you explain what you are trying to accomplish exactly? Do you want to restrict using Keeping up to when your predators minions unlock abnormally, or unlocking keeping up so it can be used whenever afterwards? At first read I thought it was the former. Then the wording would be wrong. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Superior says untap. Also, gargoyle bond with the mountain combo? B)

You can only use a Keeping Up once each unlock. You cannot use Keeping Up during an unlock phase, so it can only refer to a single unlock outside of that phase. (Unless your predator's minion unlocks during your unlock phase, in which case the restriction is double affective.) Perhaps it should read "Only one Keeping Up may be locked each unlock." Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Yes. All of the above. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

May you shoul update the cardtext to reflect those clarifications. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > May you shoul update the cardtext to reflect those clarifications. > The way I wrote it makes sense to me, and does not need clarification. Please enlighten me how you would make it more clear. And the purpose of making this open on a public form, is that someone else can improve upon the text and make it more clear. Please correct me, give me insight or prove me wrong. Don't tell me to "fix it" without offering a solution. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

"Each unlock" is not correct, and that's why it was confusing me. "Each time a minion unlocks" is a proper way of expressing what you meant, unless I got it wrong once again. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Keeping Up Put this card on this minion. Lock this card to Unlock this vampire. Keeping Up does not unlock during your unlock phase. Once each time one of your predators minions unlock outside of the unlock phase, you may unlock a Keeping Up you control. As above, and unlock this minion. Frankly, I'd drop the "outside thier unlock phase" part and add a one per minion clause for the card. So, neighbor John, jephta and joa all have keeping up tapped, your predators turn starts and they can tap it to untap, then if your predators playing Abbot, freak drive, etc, it unlocks again. At that, it's worth a blood, but reliability if triggering goes way up. As is, I fixed you use of unlock and untap and split the functions into a sentence for lock effect, unlock restriction, and unlock trigger. Also changed vapire on basic to match minion at superior. If you meant to use both, minion on basic Vampire for superior would be fine.All based upon your input to other posters. Rewording submissions is normally 2 parts: Making your idea mirror existing wording Then Breaking sentences so that non-native English speakers and new players have less difficulty with wording. What I posted doesn't"flow" great, but it's structured.

Keeping Up Put this card on this minion. Lock this card to Unlock this minion. Keeping Up does not unlock during any unlock phase. Each time one of your predators minions unlock, you may unlock a single Keeping Up you control. As above, and unlock this minion. Simplified text, and made it to minion so some corner case screwball cases can be created.

> Ankha wrote: > "Each unlock" is not correct, and that's why it was confusing me. "Each time a minion unlocks" is a proper way of expressing what you meant, unless I got it wrong once again. > "each unlock" and "each time a minion unlocks" means the same thing to me. Two commenters after you read the idea and provided a constructive revision. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > "each unlock" and "each time a minion unlocks" means the same thing to me. Two commenters after you read the idea and provided a constructive revision. > We have this thing called UNLOCK STEP. "Each unlock" is very ambiguous whether it refers to the step or when the minion (or in this case, the card keeping up) actually unlocks. Ankhas way of writing is much clearer. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> direwolf wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > "Each unlock" is not correct, and that's why it was confusing me. "Each time a minion unlocks" is a proper way of expressing what you meant, unless I got it wrong once again. > > > "each unlock" and "each time a minion unlocks" means the same thing to me. > I understood that. "Unlock" doesn't exist as a noun in the rulebook. It is either a verb, or the name of a phase. That's why it's not correct rule-wise. > Two commenters after you read the idea and provided a constructive revision. > I'm glad they understood what you meant. I didn't. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> direwolf wrote: > "each unlock" > Each unlock phase > > direwolf wrote: > and "each time a minion unlocks." > Every time a minion unlocks. 2nd Tradition, freak drive, etc.

> > Two commenters after you read the idea and provided a constructive revision. > > > I'm glad they understood what you meant. I didn't. > I contribute on the card ideas forums pretty frequently and I get a lot of that. By brain don't work right. I must be a Malkavian. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Okay, I am really confused. What problem is this card solving? Do we think that Fortitude needs the ability for multiple unlocks without blood cost? Maybe I might be missing something... but isn't this card way better version of Rutor's Hand?

> jblacey wrote: > Okay, I am really confused. What problem is this card solving? Do we think that Fortitude needs the ability for multiple unlocks without blood cost? > > Maybe I might be missing something... but isn't this card way better version of Rutor's Hand? > Not really. Basically you'll get this trigger only occasionally. Notice the 'not during unlock phase' clause, however that'll eventually be realized into the card text? That means only when your predator (again more restrictions) freaks, uses animalism untap or sect based reactions (2nd Trad, Under Siege...), stuff like that. It's frequent but not guaranteed. Also no extra stealth on the action. Sure, doesn't cost blood, but hardly just a better Rutor's. I'd say. The latest wording works the best, for sure. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > Not really. Basically you'll get this trigger only occasionally. Notice the 'not during unlock phase' clause, however that'll eventually be realized into the card text? That means only when your predator (again more restrictions) freaks, uses animalism untap or sect based reactions (2nd Trad, Under Siege...), stuff like that. It's frequent but not guaranteed. > So why is that a Fortitude card and why is it repeatable? Is the idea that because your predator takes multiple actions that my Fortitude needs more free unlock? It seems like this card is starting the conversation from the wrong direction. Fortitude already has unlock and IMHO the best unlock. Why does it need more? Why not Auspex or Animalism for unlock on another player's turn. The fact that this card triggers on another player's action basically screams that this card isn't thematically appropriate for only Fortitude. Maybe as an card?

Maybe it could require an appropriate clan or sect? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Fortitude doesn't "need" more untap, but there are two factors weighing in on this card for me: I love fortitude so much I run masochism, and I wouldn't even run this. And as more "trifle" actions come to be (which IMO is solid game design, to strengthen concepts that suck by giving them this slight advantage) fortitude loses 50% of what it's identity is defined by, so re asserting that it "owns" untap is justifiable. You know, since all fortitude does is prevent damage and untap. It's got that other block failing stuff that puts your own minion in torpor, but those antics have fallen out of favor from twd entries lately. I run DtD in my Matthias spirit marionette deck, I run freak drive and prevent in every deck where 65% or more of my primary vamps have fortitude. Not saying the cards good, or needed, just saying it has a slight reason for being possibly.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > it has a slight reason for being possibly. > I'll take that. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > And as more "trifle" actions come to be (which IMO is solid game design, to strengthen concepts that suck by giving them this slight advantage) fortitude loses 50% of what it's identity is defined by, so re asserting that it "owns" untap is justifiable. > I think the fact that Fortitude has Freak Drive means it's in no danger of losing its credibility as a source of untap, because Freak Drive is significantly better than pretty much all the more recently added sources of untap. Instantaneous Transformation, for example, is one per vampire per turn. Truth of a Thousand Lies is twice the cost. Domain of Evernight, requiring a superior scarce discipline, is once per vampire per turn. Zephyr is interesting but unreliable - potentially useful for making deciding to block a rush with a chump blocker harder, but very clearly not Freak Drive. Forced March is interesting for its versatility - the stealth is a nice option - but requires Fortitude. Dusk Work would be interesting if Aye/Orun strategies weren't so difficult, but is clearly limited by its activation cost. Crimethinc is interesting, but the permanent Thaumaturgy level is probably more comparable with Rutor's Hand than Freak Drive, and the Pro/Qui levels which are more like Freak Drive are still restricted by the need for an anarch-related action. Some - like Guruhi are the Land and Hag's Wrinkles - are vastly more limited. Compare Freak Drive, where my big Ventrue can bleed you, untap, Banish you, untap, Mind Rape you, untap etc., and I don't think Freak Drive has much to worry about anytime soon. See also: I don't think Dominate needs a better bleed modifier because Aire of Elation, Bear Baiting, and Quicksilver Contemplation got printed and that means Dominate doesn't own bleed anymore.

@James I was speaking of Abbot and more recently Field Training (which I'm a huge fan of). Not freak drive substitutes, but actions that untap ("trifle actions") Adding the "and this shmuck untaps" to cards is an easy way to improve weak areas of the game. Because of that, I said what I said about the potential for Fortitude to re-assert untap as "it's thing". Now, obviously I was on the fence generally on this card. Freak drive is one of my absolute favorite cards in the game because of the awesome superior effect letting your minions get blocked, do some combat fun stuff and then shrug and untap. It's always going to be good, but not in the PTO sense of good. I just like the idea of fortitude having that effect as it's obvious perview.