Hi,
We went through the discussions we could find on this on the old google group and the more recent one of this forum, but it isnt clear what the conclusion is regarding this scenario.
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B is blocking. A plays Domain of Evernight, then plays Outside the Hourglass before range on of the first round of combat.
Can vampire B play his own copy of Outside the Hourglass BEFORE dealing with the incoming aggravated damage or can he play it and the the damage resolves for both A and B afterwards?
This thread from 2010 went a bit back and forth it seems groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/Itzely9s_pc
This thread from 2016 also went back and forth I think because of a misunderstanding, but seemed to end in an open debate and some suggestions.
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/75275-before-range-is-determined
What is the official answer if there is one?
(Sorry, I wanted to include the card texts but on my phone and I couldnt find them, other than ehat is in the threads).
> Nikolaj wrote:
> Vampire A is acting. Vampire B is blocking. A plays Domain of Evernight, then plays Outside the Hourglass before range on of the first round of combat.
> Can vampire B play his own copy of Outside the Hourglass BEFORE dealing with the incoming aggravated damage or can he play it and the the damage resolves for both A and B afterwards?
>
The is the official answer: Yes. A and B can play any number of cards or effects before resolving the damage, including another Outside the Hourglass. Here's a few examples:
1: B can play Outside the Hourglass to inflict 2 damage to A. In that case, A and B have each 2 points of damage to handle. The damage prevention steps of A and B's damage are merged together (the same way as the damage of strikes).
2: B can play a Torn Signpost, an Aura Reading, lock the Barrens to discard and draw a card before preventing the damage with a Skin of Rock.
If we compare Weather Control and Outside the Hourglass:
Weather Control's damage can be applied after other effects are played.: A plays WC, then Torn Signpost, then decide to apply WC's damage. Outside the Hourglass immediately opens a prevention window
A can't pass before applying the damage of Weather Control (which opens a prevention window)
Weather Control's damage is "environmental". Outside the Hourglass' damage is dealt by the minion.
Both cards are very similar otherwise.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I know this is a necro post, but I just played a game against Outside the Hourglass.
I have assumed that damage dealt during the "before range" step was resolved immediately after it was declared. But here you are saying that:
"The damage prevention steps of A and B's damage are merged together (the same way as the damage of strikes)."
This is a newly-created rule as far as I can tell. The rulebook simply says that cards or effects are played in "before range" step. I always thought "played" meant resolved immediately after declared.
This rule means "Before range" has a hidden "Damage Resolution" step at the end. I guess the rationale is that damage dealing and damage resolution have to be separate so that damage prevention can be used in an unambiguous timing window.
You could equally have ruled that Damage Resolution occurs immediately after each damage dealing event in the "Before Range" step. I presume you chose this option as being more balanced for the non-acting player.
Does this mean that the other steps (Press, End of Round) also handle damage with this same timing?
> AaronC wrote:
> I know this is a necro post, but I just played a game against Outside the Hourglass.
>
> I have assumed that damage dealt during the "before range" step was resolved immediately after it was declared. But here you are saying that:
>
> "The damage prevention steps of A and B's damage are merged together (the same way as the damage of strikes)."
>
In that scenario, A and B both played Outside the Hourglass before range.
> AaronC wrote:
> I always thought "played" meant resolved immediately after declared.
>
Yes. OtH inflicts damage immediately. But this opens a damage prevention window, during which you can play plenty of effects.
> AaronC wrote:
> This rule means "Before range" has a hidden "Damage Resolution" step at the end.
>
No, not at the end, but as soon as damage is inflicted.
> AaronC wrote:
> You could equally have ruled that Damage Resolution occurs immediately after each damage dealing event in the "Before Range" step.
>
This is the case. But if additional damage is dealt during the Damage Resolution, then the new Damage Resolution window that should open is instead merged with the current one.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I've been reading through LSJ's and RTR's rulings on this, and it's surprising. I see that in the past others like me (including LSJ himself, briefly groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/2yQ77GFyI-o/m/P_9Vt6vRbHEJ) assumed that the first Outside the Hourglass would end combat by sending the opposing vampire to torpor before they could play effects.
You say (sorry don't know how to do the split quotes):
In that scenario, A and B both played Outside the Hourglass before range.
That is technically true, but what has happened is that Player B has played his Outside the Hourglass during Player A's impulse. Because of a previous ruling (groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/WUWh7AdooDU/m/vojisZMCSnsJ), if Player A plays a damaging effect in the pre-range step, Player B gets to jump the line, so to speak. Player B can play any and all of his pre-range effects DURING Player A's impulse between Player A's damaging effect and damage resolution. The ruling specifically mentions Aura Reading being played during this window, and that has the same timing window as other pre-range effects, including Outside the Hourglass.
I cannot find a ruling that specifically says that damage from Player A's effect and damage from Player B's effect, played during Player A's impulse, should be resolved simultaneously in a "merged" damage resolution. The rulings seem to suggest that Player A could order his own damage resolution when he chooses, but perhaps I'm missing something.
Right now the order looks something like this:
-Player A plays Outside the Hourglass
-Player A decides that Player B's Damage Resolution can occur
-Player B plays multiple effects, including Outside the Hourglass
-Player A's Damage Resolution from Player B's Outside the Hourglass occurs
-Player A plays multiple effects (because effects can always be played at this time according to the ruling)
- Player A and Player B both "handle" the damage from the respective OtH's that were played on them (the "Merged" damage resolution)
-Assuming both vampires are ready, Player A continues to play effects
-Player A passes the impulse to Player B.
In practice, only the "handling" of the damage can be merged, as Player A must have a chance to play effects between being damaged and handling the damage.
You also said that damage is resolved as soon as it is inflicted. That contradicts previous rulings that said that the damage is resolved when the acting vampire chooses, like here groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/f7Xa61O5JKA/m/_cPhJ9z7k88J . In theory Player A could play Outside the Hourglass, THEN Torn Signpost, and THEN decide it was time to resolve the damage from Outside the Hourglass (don't know why you'd want to, but this is VTES.)
Not that you've asked for my opinion, but my opinion is that this is unnecessarily complicated.
One practical issue is that "Damage Resolution" has now been enshrined in the rulebook as its own step of combat, which is separate from the Before Range step. The rulebook says that "the minion taking damage can play combat cards that prevent damage." To an inexperienced person, that sounds like the only thing you can do during this step is to play cards that prevent damage, and not other cards. (Of course, we know that you can use any effect whose combat timing is not otherwise restrained, especially effects that alter damage that is already dealt) It is a little strange that there is a step called Damage Resolution that occurs after the Strike step, but also that "damage resolution" occurs within other steps.
I would ask you to consider changing the ruling about effects that can be played before the resolution of damage inflicted outside of Step 4, Strikes and Step 5, Damage Resolution. It would be more intuitive and less confusing (and closer to the rulebook) if only damage prevention and alteration could be played in response to damage inflicted outside of Step 4.
Not only that, but it is contrary to the simulation of the World of Darkness. If a vampire is struck by a blow or damaging effect, they don't have time invoke a variety of exotic abilities (in other words, abilities not related to healing or damage prevention) before their wounds appear. If the logic of the card game follows the logic of the simulated world, it is is easier to understand and enjoy.
> AaronC wrote:
> I've been reading through LSJ's and RTR's rulings on this, and it's surprising. I see that in the past others like me (including LSJ himself, briefly groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/2yQ77GFyI-o/m/P_9Vt6vRbHEJ) assumed that the first Outside the Hourglass would end combat by sending the opposing vampire to torpor before they could play effects.
>
> You say (sorry don't know how to do the split quotes):
> In that scenario, A and B both played Outside the Hourglass before range.
>
> That is technically true, but what has happened is that Player B has played his Outside the Hourglass during Player A's impulse. Because of a previous ruling (groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/WUWh7AdooDU/m/vojisZMCSnsJ), if Player A plays a damaging effect in the pre-range step, Player B gets to jump the line, so to speak. Player B can play any and all of his pre-range effects DURING Player A's impulse
>
The impulse is not a time period. Whoever has the impulse is the next to play or pass for sequencing matter.
> AaronC wrote:
> between Player A's damaging effect and damage resolution. The ruling specifically mentions Aura Reading being played during this window, and that has the same timing window as other pre-range effects, including Outside the Hourglass.
>
> I cannot find a ruling that specifically says that damage from Player A's effect and damage from Player B's effect, played during Player A's impulse, should be resolved simultaneously in a "merged" damage resolution.
>
This is the ruling: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/76197-still-confused-about-multiple-outside-the-hourglasses#83682
> AaronC wrote:
> You also said that damage is resolved as soon as it is inflicted. That contradicts previous rulings that said that the damage is resolved when the acting vampire chooses, like here groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/f7Xa61O5JKA/m/_cPhJ9z7k88J .
>
The resolution of OtH is to inflict damage. The resolution of Weather Control is to create a delayed effect that inflicts damage "before range is determined". Those are not the same.
> AaronC wrote:
> In theory Player A could play Outside the Hourglass, THEN Torn Signpost, and THEN decide it was time to resolve the damage from Outside the Hourglass (don't know why you'd want to, but this is VTES.)
>
No, you have to resolve OtH before playing other cards, and OtH inflicts damage.
> AaronC wrote:
> One practical issue is that "Damage Resolution" has now been enshrined in the rulebook as its own step of combat, which is separate from the Before Range step. The rulebook says that "the minion taking damage can play combat cards that prevent damage." To an inexperienced person, that sounds like the only thing you can do during this step is to play cards that prevent damage, and not other cards. (Of course, we know that you can use any effect whose combat timing is not otherwise restrained, especially effects that alter damage that is already dealt) It is a little strange that there is a step called Damage Resolution that occurs after the Strike step, but also that "damage resolution" occurs within other steps.
>
> I would ask you to consider changing the ruling about effects that can be played before the resolution of damage inflicted outside of Step 4, Strikes and Step 5, Damage Resolution. It would be more intuitive and less confusing (and closer to the rulebook) if only damage prevention and alteration could be played in response to damage inflicted outside of Step 4.
>
It's not was decided, and would bring confusion as why you can't try to draw prevent cards with a Barrens when inflicted damage (which was the point of this decision).
> AaronC wrote:
> Not only that, but it is contrary to the simulation of the World of Darkness. If a vampire is struck by a blow or damaging effect, they don't have time invoke a variety of exotic abilities (in other words, abilities not related to healing or damage prevention) before their wounds appear. If the logic of the card game follows the logic of the simulated world, it is is easier to understand and enjoy.
>
The rules must be consistent from a game perspective, not from a lore perspective. Dogs can ride stunt cycles and shoot with guns in VTES.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I see what the difference is between Weather Control and Outside the Hourglass.
So if the impulse is not a time period, then playing a damaging effect, or choosing to resolve Weather Control, effectively passes the impulse to the opposing player to play any legal effect before handling the damage. I'll call this the "prevention window". This is actually consistent with what you wrote above, but it is so unexpected and unintuitive (to me) that it took me quite a bit of research to understand what was actually going on. After the damage is handled, the impulse passes back to Player A, I would assume.
Thank you for clarifying that the "merged damage resolution" was a new ruling. However, to clarify, this only applies to damage that is dealt in Player B's "prevention window" in response to Player A's damaging effect, not to damage that is dealt after Player A passes the impulse officially to Player B.
Again, I stand by my opinion that being able to play unlimited effects during a "prevention window", particularly outside the Damage Prevention step, adds unnecessary complications to the game. I suspect that few players understand the nuances of these rulings. My opinion is that it is better to have a streamlined and intuitive gameplay than it is for players to be able to fish for answers in borderline cases. As this "prevention window" is not part of the rulebook, this is a ruling created by rules-team fiat and can be changed by rules-team fiat.
However, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and I thank you for your efforts and improvements on behalf of the game.
Sorry to continue adding to this (already) long thread.
I wanted to point out that I fail to see the actual difference between Outside the Hourglass and Weather Control. I understand the theoretical difference you're making here:
>
> Ankha wrote:
> If we compare Weather Control and Outside the Hourglass:
>
> Weather Control's damage can be applied after other effects are played.: A plays WC, then Torn Signpost, then decide to apply WC's damage. Outside the Hourglass immediately opens a prevention window
> A can't pass before applying the damage of Weather Control (which opens a prevention window)
> Weather Control's damage is "environmental". Outside the Hourglass' damage is dealt by the minion.
>
> Both cards are very similar otherwise.
>
But from a practical perspective, since you can play any effect during the prevention window and the damage windows are merged if two effects provide damage, doesn't that means that in the end, you can in both cases play any number of effects as the active player, then you pass impulse to the defending player?
From the scenario you outline (A plays Weather Control > Torn Signpost > Passes impulse to B), doesn't the same scenario apply to Outside the Hourglass (A plays Outside the Hourglass > Torn Signpost > Passes impulse to B)? I mean, outside from the "prevention window" opening at a different time (before or after Torn Signpost, but I think this is immaterial since you can play any pre-range effect in the prevention window or outside of it). In both cases, B gets the impulse in a prevention window, only after A got a chance to play Torn Signpost, no?
Is there any scenario where the impulse flows differently or the orders in which you get an opportunity to play cards is actually different between Outside the Hourglass and Weather Control?
The more I think about it, the more I think there might be a way to simplify the theory of the rulings here - the way we view them: if there is no actual difference, we can have an abstraction / explanation to explain both cards the same way without having to distinguish immaterial theoretical differences here. But maybe I'm missing something.
For now, I registered the combination of rulings as "Both minions can play prevention and non-prevention pre-range effects before mending the damage. If another pre-range damaging effect is played then, all damages are prevented and mended together."