Submission: Camarilla Conclave

Name: Camarilla Conclave Cardtype: Master Cost: 2 pool Capacity: NA Discipline: NA Clan: NA Master: unique location You may lock this card after a Camarilla vampire successfully calls a referendum in which pool is not gained, burnt, or stolen to unlock the acting vampire. As a discard phase action, you may exchange a card in your hand for a political action in your ash heap. World of Darkness reference: whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Conclave How does this card address a compelling game need?: This card encourages diversity in political actions, specifically those that aren't to cause pool gain or loss. It reduces the cost to play those political actions by unlocking the acting vampire. This card also provides an alternative discard phase action by allowing someone to draw a political action from their ash heap; which has the indirect effect of making political actions that can only be called once per game, less valuable. And finally, this means that a deck designed around a political action that do not directly manipulate pool requires less copies of the card if they are willing to use their discard phase action to effectively redraw the political action. Created by: Justin Lacey Update: September 7th 2017 There are currently only 10 cards that this version of the card can target. The big two are Fifth Tradition: Hospitality and Fourth Tradition: The Accounting. Neither of which are bad cards but they almost never see play. This version is nearly identical as the Sabbat version but Camarilla currently have very few sect specific actions. I am hoping that will change in the future. Camarilla Conclave Master 2 pool Master: unique location You may lock this card after a vampire successfully uses an action requiring a Camarilla vampire, to unlock the acting vampire. As a discard phase action, you may exchange a card in your hand for an action card requiring a Camarilla vampire, in your ash heap. Update: September 8th 2017 Added non-political to the requirements. Camarilla Conclave Master 2 pool Master: unique location You may lock this card after a vampire successfully uses a non-political action requiring a Camarilla vampire to unlock the acting vampire. As as a discard phase action you may exchange a card in your hand for a non-political action card requiring a Camarilla vampire in your ash heap. Update: October 1st 2017 Forgot flavor text and art notes. Flavor text: ""In these troubled nights, many Domains face threats from multiple sources." -Genevive deMontaigne Art Notes: Three large seats in the center of the room. In the first sits Jarsolav Pascek, the second Cock Robin, and in the final seat Lucinde, Alastor. A crowd of vampires that surrounds them. Note: Theo Bell is in the crowd. This taken directly from 2011 Conclave - Columbus, OH. Update: Feb 23 2019 I am resurecting this thread, because an idea hit me to fix the card. Camarilla Conclave Master 2 Master: unique location Lock this card when a Camarilla vampire announces a political action in which pool is not gained, burnt, stolen, or a cost in the referrendum to gain +1 stealth (even if not yet necessary), +2 votes in the referrendum, and if successful unlock the acting vampire. Notes: So I dropped the recursion completely. Instead this card becomes an enhancer for actions like Rumors of Gehenna, Year of Fortune, Title manipulate effects, Reversal of Fortune, or Blood manipulate effects, etc.

Out of all sect-devices, this is the only one I'm having trouble with as is. The restrictions (pool-cost, location, sect-requirement) are all well and good, but compared to allies/retainers/embraces and equipment, political actions are actually game-defining, if not game-breaking. There is ill need for any recursion for them at all. What political actions would the unlock effect contribute to? Banishment? That war thing with the helicopter? Alastor, Archon, Camarilla Exemplary? Okay, that's a fair list of cards most of which could use the love (banishment doesn't), but it would require a pretty specific deck. Which, well, might not be a bad thing as such... The main beef I have with this card is the recursion effect, which could be used to infinitely recur Parity Shifts and Kine Resource Contested. I won't even back the claim up where I say that this is a bad, bad, bad bad bad thing. And shouldn't be done. Camarilla needs something like this if the others get it as well, of course, but something needs to be done about the intuitivity (which referendum effects fit in here? Making a list could be daunting for beginners, even to veterans), and most importantly to the power level. Not sure what to do with this though. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> jblacey wrote: > Name: Camarilla Conclave > Cardtype: Master > Cost: 2 pool > Master: unique location > You may lock this card after a Camarilla vampire successfully calls a referendum in which pool is not gained, burnt, or stolen to unlock the acting vampire. As a discard phase action, you may exchange a card in your hand for a political action in your ash heap. > I think there might be a place for something like this, but that place probably isn't the Camarilla. Although I note that it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire to play or use for the recycle effect, which might be thematically weird. The recycle makes it that much easier for a deck to pull Parity Shift more easily - once you've pulled one and it's in your ash heap, you can recycle it pretty freely. And Parity Shift doesn't need to be made better. Plus there are a bunch of political actions that do benefit from unlock effect which turn up in such decks, like big Ventrue throwing down Banishment, the occasional Disputed Territory or Praxis/Justicar vote etc. I mean, yes, it does potentially enliven a few cards like Archon or Anathema which are playable but not super-solid tier-1-will-roll-the-continental-championships decks - but those probably aren't going to be the decks that benefit from it most, I think. Designer intent question: what's your intention with the unlock re: Alastor? Paying the cost of the chosen equipment involves burning pool (assuming you got something expensive, which people usually do). Similarly, what's your intention re: burning pool during polling (which is during the referendum), such as Oxford University or Business Pressure? > jblacey wrote: > This card also provides an alternative discard phase action by allowing someone to draw a political action from their ash heap; which has the indirect effect of making political actions that can only be called once per game, less valuable. > I'm not sure I follow them becoming less valuable. Ancient Influence, in particular, can be really desirable but... not always right now because the vampires on the table are a bit wrong until so-and-so gets ousted or Banishment or whatever. This makes it easier to toss it and get it back later

> Kraus wrote: > > The main beef I have with this card is the recursion effect, which could be used to infinitely recur Parity Shifts and Kine Resource Contested. > I agree. Recursion is almost always an extremely strong effect in any CCG, not just VTES. A recursion effect was even recently banned in VTES (Anthelios) also. Slightly offtopic: if there would be new politically related cards introduced, I think they should be aimed at Sabbat and not Camarilla. I have been terribly vexed that Sabbat voting is pretty much strictly inferior to Camarilla. Sabbat doesn't have any actually good political actions that are exclusive to Sabbat(there is basically only auto da fe), and it can't play the best cards (parity shift, alastor). Even if you make a sabbat vote deck, it uses the exact same cards as Camarilla (kine etc), which I find extremely boring. Just for flavor reasons, I think there should be some sabbat-specific political cards introduced. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Kraus wrote: > The main beef I have with this card is the recursion effect, which could be used to infinitely recur Parity Shifts and Kine Resource Contested. > Ah, the recursion effect was only meant to work on the same required as the unlock effect. I will need to fix that on all three cards. > Designer intent question: what's your intention with the unlock re: Alastor? Paying the cost of the chosen equipment involves burning pool (assuming you got something expensive, which people usually do). > > Similarly, what's your intention re: burning pool during polling (which is during the referendum), such as Oxford University or Business Pressure? > So the idea is Parity Shift, KRC and pool gain political action cards are so good that any political deck will automatically be drawn to them and I was hoping to create a card that would help make it so less powerful votes see play. The limitation effecting Alastor and vote push options like Oxford University is unintended. > This makes it easier to toss it and get it back later > Just clarifying... I will be adding the same restriction for the recursion effect as the unlock effect, once I figure out a better way to phrase it. This was meant to be a targeted solution to specifically make non-damaging, non-bloat votes better. This is work in progress and the goal is to definitely allow some less used votes to get some love.

> Bloodartist wrote: > Slightly offtopic: if there would be new politically related cards introduced, I think they should be aimed at Sabbat and not Camarilla. I have been terribly vexed that Sabbat voting is pretty much strictly inferior to Camarilla. Sabbat doesn't have any actually good political actions that are exclusive to Sabbat(there is basically only auto da fe), and it can't play the best cards (parity shift, alastor). Even if you make a sabbat vote deck, it uses the exact same cards as Camarilla (kine etc), which I find extremely boring. Just for flavor reasons, I think there should be some sabbat-specific political cards introduced. > Actually, I am considering changing the Binding (another card that was recently posted) to effect actions requiring Sabbat vampires. Not sure if that should include or be replaced with political actions requiring Sabbat vampires... but that could be a reasonable alternative.

Fun fact: technically, First Tradition does not burn pool

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Kraus wrote: > > > > The main beef I have with this card is the recursion effect, which could be used to infinitely recur Parity Shifts and Kine Resource Contested. > > > I agree. Recursion is almost always an extremely strong effect in any CCG, not just VTES. A recursion effect was even recently banned in VTES (Anthelios) also. > > Slightly offtopic: if there would be new politically related cards introduced, I think they should be aimed at Sabbat and not Camarilla. I have been terribly vexed that Sabbat voting is pretty much strictly inferior to Camarilla. Sabbat doesn't have any actually good political actions that are exclusive to Sabbat(there is basically only auto da fe), and it can't play the best cards (parity shift, alastor). Even if you make a sabbat vote deck, it uses the exact same cards as Camarilla (kine etc), which I find extremely boring. Just for flavor reasons, I think there should be some sabbat-specific political cards introduced. > Mathematically speaking, there are two votes for Sabbat that have the potential to remove a great deal of blood from the table, but they just aren't good enough in practice: Public Vilification and Deploy the Hand. Both have powerful effects, like actually powerful, but they don't directly deal with blood and have pretty hard restrictions. I'd really love to see someone make a powerful deck with these, but they just don't compare that favorably to raw pool damage. Sad. But then again, that's a challenge for someone willing to try it! A combat Regent deck with blood control around the board and... oh god it's never going to happen. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Updated. There are currently only 10 cards that this version of the card can target. The big two are Fifth Tradition: Hospitality and Fourth Tradition: The Accounting. Neither of which are bad cards but they almost never see play. This version is nearly identical as the Sabbat version but Camarilla currently have very few sect specific actions. I am hoping that will change in the future. Camarilla Conclave Master 2 pool Master: unique location You may lock this card after a vampire successfully uses an action requiring a Camarilla vampire, to unlock the acting vampire. As a discard phase action, you may exchange a card in your hand for an action card requiring a Camarilla vampire, in your ash heap.

Parity Shift requires a Camarilla vampire, as it requires a Prince or Justicar (see the Baron/anarch analogy with CrimethInc.) Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I personally think we should be VERY restrictive with card recursion in VTES. Switching a card is not enough IMHO - I would say a cost of 1 blood from a vamp OR 1 pool OR tapping a vamp in addition to the card "payed". "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > I personally think we should be VERY restrictive with card recursion in VTES. Switching a card is not enough IMHO - I would say a cost of 1 blood from a vamp OR 1 pool OR tapping a vamp in addition to the card "payed". > Im not a fan of much more text on this card, but adding another requirement (requires a ready Primigen) to the beginning and requiring the discarded card be either a Master (once again a real drawback with Anthelios out of the picture) or making you pitch a card of the same type are less wordy extra restrictions....... Which it unfortunately needs. Parity shift, bloat to a younger vamp, recurring judgement: cam seg, ready access to extra second trads if you're walling up, and less likely but still annoying are things like archon (which nobody burns for some reason) anathema, and I'm sure something else but I haven't checked secret library on the subject. Bright side, at least PTO isnt going to recur with it........

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > (requires a ready Primigen) > Yes this could be something. Looking forward to giving Primogen some real love in the future - without breaking them. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ankha wrote: > Parity Shift requires a Camarilla vampire, as it requires a Prince or Justicar (see the Baron/anarch analogy with CrimethInc.) > Parity Shift is a political action. Is it also considered a Camarilla action? Is there a way to word it so it only refers to and not ?

> Ashur wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > (requires a ready Primigen) > > > Yes this could be something. Looking forward to giving Primogen some real love in the future - without breaking them. > My next submission is exactly something that to address this concern.

I'd love to write longer when I'm not on phone, but very quickly: I LOVE the idea of primogen involved! All actions are ; equipment and political and all the rest are just "subtypes". So yeah. You have to take that into consideration. More on all this later! Hopefully. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > ready access to extra second trads if you're walling up > are also considered ? That seems wrong.

Updated. Added non-political to requirements to disallow political actions from being valid targets for either effect.

Updated with flavor text and art notes.

Yes, this is an old post. What do you guys think about this? Update: Feb 23 2019 I am resurecting this thread, because an idea hit me to fix the card. Camarilla Conclave Master 2 Master: unique location Lock this card when a Camarilla vampire announces a political action in which pool is not gained, burnt, stolen, or a cost in the referrendum to gain +1 stealth (even if not yet necessary), +2 votes in the referrendum, and if successful unlock the acting vampire. Notes: So I dropped the recursion completely. Instead this card becomes an enhancer for actions like Rumors of Gehenna, Year of Fortune, Title manipulate effects, or Blood manipulate effects, etc. The idea is to try to promote diversity in political actions and create room for cards that never usually make the cut.

Interesting. This "not gained, burnt, stolen, or a cost in the referrendum" is a neat conditional. It strikes me as a way to help Primogen without strictly limiting it to Primogen. More support for them would be good though, too, IMO. Potential concern might be weenie Titles vote? Maybe require "Primogen, Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle?" Or just "Primogen or Prince"? Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex , Obfuscate , or Potence for the current action.

> LivesByProxy wrote: > Interesting. This "not gained, burnt, stolen, or a cost in the referrendum" is a neat conditional. > > It strikes me as a way to help Primogen without strictly limiting it to Primogen. More support for them would be good though, too, IMO. Potential concern might be weenie Titles vote? Maybe require "Primogen, Prince, Justicar, or Inner Circle?" Or just "Primogen or Prince"? > This card was a part of a handful of sect based cards. The Camarilla action was an action for Primogen. Pretty sure you will like that card. I am planning on updating the rest of the cards soon so that it matches the format of this card. As for titled Camarilla vampire requirement? No. It is perfectly fine for weenies to play this card. In fact, part of the reason for this card was a need to support clans and decks that lack the built-in titles especially at the midrange.