Submission: Mark Sandhurst

Name: Mark Sandhurst Capacity: 8 Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Discipline: Group: 5 Camarilla. You and Mark may play and use cards as though Mark was Sabbat. If Mark enters torpor burn 1 pool. +1 Bleed. Art notes: He is wearing an overcoat and has a flare gun in his hand. His mouth is open bearing his fangs. There is a picture of him on page 66 of Nights of Prophecy. World of Darkness Reference: Pages 66 and 82 of Nights of Prophecy, but there are multiple references to him through out the scenario since he is one of the antagonists. In the scenario Mark Sandhust is a double agent. He is both a Camarilla Archon and a Sabbat sleeper agent. He betrays the Players and starts a fight. How does this card address a compelling game need?: He is solid 8 Cap for Followers of Set. There is only one 8 Cap Follower of Set in group 5. Mark's Disciplines cross over fairly well with several vampires in groups 4-6 and since he can play both Sabbat and Camarilla cards he fits into multiple crypts. Created by: Justin Lacey Update: July 25th 2017 I did some comparisons with Sundervere, The Devil Brahmin and found that Mark is slightly under-powered. He should have one more discipline point. Adding since it is the most common out of clan discipline for G5 FoS. Sundervere can bleed for more than Mark but he is also Red List. Mark's disadvantage is worse, but he has a better mix of disciplines. The also gives him cross over potential with Pentweret, Ogwon and Abdelsobek. Mark Sandhurst 8 Capacity Group 5 Camarilla. You and Mark may play and use cards as though Mark was Sabbat. If Mark is enters torpor, you burn 1 pool. +1 Bleed. Update: August 14th 2017 Decided to go a completely different direction. The Sabbat mechanic was purely thematic though it did allow him to use Abbot, but it was unnecessary. He didn't need +1 intercept. I tried it and it was a poor ability. Instead, I changed it to focus on non-bleed actions and I am really starting to like this version. Mark Sandhurst 8 Capacity Group 5 Camarilla. Once during your minion phase, Mark may unlock after a successful non-bleed action. Math 8 capacity = +9 8 disciplines = -8 unlock ability (require action) and non-bleed = -1 = 0 This ability is extremely good. He can unlock after a successful Corruption, Enticement, Temptation, Revelation, or Mind Numb. In playtest, I used it after removing a Pentex Subversion and the next turn I rescued one of my grand prey's vampires from torpor, then unlocked, which meant he was ready and could use Telepathic Misdirection. Update: August 17th 2017 Here is the Math: 8 Cap = +9 6 diff disciplines = +1 9 disc = -9 ability = -1 =0 Mark Sandhurst 8 Capacity Group 5 Camarilla. Once each turn, Mark may unlock at the end of a successful non-bleed action. Update: August 22nd 2017 Reasons 1) This adds several potential non-bleed necromancy actions. 2) This adds a good cross over in group 4-5 with Cagliostro, Abdelsobek, Neferu and Seterpenre. 3) In group 5-6, in addition he can cross over with Count Jocalo, who really needs the extra support. 4) This addresses the concern that is too abundant in groups 4-5. 5) His base text makes unnecessary. Mark Sandhurst 8 Capacity Group 5 Camarilla. Once each turn, Mark may unlock at the end of a successful non-bleed action.

Updated.

> jblacey wrote: > Update: July 25th 2017 > I did some comparisons with Sundervere, The Devil Brahmin and found that Mark is slightly under-powered. He should have one more discipline point. Adding since it is the most common out of clan discipline for G5 FoS. Sundervere can bleed for more than Mark but he is also Red List. Mark's disadvantage is worse, but he has a better mix of disciplines. The also gives him cross over potential with Pentweret, Ogwon and Abdelsobek. > Sunderwere is Red List (which is a hugh disadvantage when playing bleed stealth) and has inferior Obfuscate, that's why he isn't broken. Your proposal isn't "solid", it's overpowered. Mark should be a 10-cap if you want to keep the rest. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Your proposal isn't "solid", it's overpowered. Mark should be a 10-cap if you want to keep the rest. > What? The proposal is just one more level of a discipline than Lazarus James, who never sees play: www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=729 Or compare to Bloody Mary, who also never sees play: www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=1183 Or Muhandis: www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=734

> BenPeal wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > Your proposal isn't "solid", it's overpowered. Mark should be a 10-cap if you want to keep the rest. > > > What? The proposal is just one more level of a discipline than Lazarus James, who never sees play: > > www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=729 > Lazarus James has inferior obfuscate, which is deterrent in a bleed stealth deck. > BenPeal wrote: > Or compare to Bloody Mary, who also never sees play: > > www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=1183 > I've already seen Bloody Mary played. If we don't see her often, it's because players prefer smaller vampires in a Malkavian s&b archetype. > BenPeal wrote: > Or Muhandis: > > www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=734 > Muhandis has a stupid drawback that excludes him from a suitable archetype for him (intercept fight with guns). Still, I think I saw someone play with him for his [for] (to play Forced March). Granted, playing Sabbat cards is useless, so I'll review the capacity down to 9. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

You do have a point is that Mark's discipline array might be too optimized. There only two 8 capacity vampires for Followers of Set that all have all in-clan at superior and none have +1 bleed. In fact, all of the Followers of Set with +1 bleed with all in-clan disciplines at superior are 10+. What I was saying is that Mark's disadvantage is "If Mark is enters torpor, you burn 1 pool." is worse than Sundervere's disadvantage "If Sundervere is burned, you burn 1 pool." since Mark's disadvantage can be triggered multiple times and Sundervere's disadvantage will only ever trigger once. Here was the math, Sundervere, The Devil Brahmin 8 Cap = +9 5 diff disc = +0.5 Red List = +1 Disadv = +1 9 disc = -9 Burn for bleed = -1 +1 Bleed = -1.5 = 0 Mark Sandhurst 8 Cap = +9 5 diff disc = +0.5 Disadv = +1 9 disc = -9 +1 Bleed = -1.5 =0 Okay, lets go back to the thematic. His discipline mix is the least important part of the card, though he should have at least inferior in-clan He has "You and Mark may play and use cards as though Mark was Sabbat." because he is a Sabbat infiltrator and in the Camarilla, specifically he is an Archon. The reason he has his disadvantage is if you capture him, he will turn on his masters and spill his secrets... if you burn him, you get nothing. The +1 Bleed is because he is dangerous and undermines diplomatic negotiations. Maybe the better way to go... is remove the disadvantage, the extra discipline and the +1 Bleed all together and replace it with +1 intercept vs political actions? Mark Sandhurst 8 Capacity Group 5 Camarilla. You and Mark may play and use cards as though Mark was Sabbat. He has +1 intercept when attempting to block political actions. 8 Cap = +9 points 8 disc = -8 points Play Sabbat = -0.5 points +1 intercept on specific action type = -0.5 points = 0 Is that better?

> Ankha wrote: > > > BenPeal wrote: > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > Your proposal isn't "solid", it's overpowered. Mark should be a 10-cap if you want to keep the rest. > > > > > > > > What? The proposal is just one more level of a discipline than Lazarus James, who never sees play: > > > > www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=729 > > > Lazarus James has inferior obfuscate, which is deterrent in a bleed stealth deck. > So what? > > BenPeal wrote: > > Or compare to Bloody Mary, who also never sees play: > > > > www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=1183 > > > I've already seen Bloody Mary played. If we don't see her often, it's because players prefer smaller vampires in a Malkavian s&b archetype. > So...stealth-bleed players consistently don't see her as being good enough for a stealth bleed deck. Right. She's not good enough. Consider Suzanne Kadim: www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=573 7-cap, 7 levels of disciplines, +1 bleed. Totally fine vampire. Would giving an 8-cap version of her 2 more levels of disciplines be overpowered?

Updated. Mark Sandhurst 8 Capacity Group 5 Camarilla. Once during your minion phase, Mark may unlock after a successful non-bleed action.

> jblacey wrote: > Updated. > > Mark Sandhurst > 8 Capacity Group 5 > > Camarilla. Once during your minion phase, Mark may unlock after a successful non-bleed action. > More even, but he suddenly just fell into the "I was made for one deck" category. Specifically this deck: www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=4668 Which I had the unfortunate pleasure of losing some malk94 minions to in New Orleans..... My problem is you can lose with style and pile up corruption counters with him, or you can put him in a chameleon deck as a less good 'thorheb. Other uses exist, like AUS precog mobility to untap someone else's minion, maybe for a saulot deck? But what does he do? Like constructively?

Interesting. I have 4 different decks with Mark at the moment and none of them are Anarch decks. I had him in a Sabbat FoS deck previously (Bleed/Vote). My current decks for him are 1) Multi action Stealth Bleed (using Nakhthorheb and Revelation of Desire) 2) Intercept/Combat Rush (using Ghede and Typhonic Beast) 3) Big Camarilla Vote (using IC, built around Obfuscate, Presence and Auspex) 4) Spell of Life The thing to remember about Mark is that he doesn't sacrifice offense to be your defense. You can take a proactive action with him and still have him available to block, reduce or bounce. I am very tempted to find a way to rework Mark just so he can have for Typhonic Beast. I am using Potence skill cards and Hand of Conrad in that deck currently.

> jblacey wrote: > Mark Sandhurst > 8 Capacity Group 5 > > Camarilla. Once during your minion phase, Mark may unlock after a successful non-bleed action. > I'm not really getting the AUS on any of the versions you've proposed. Telepathic Misdirection, sure, but on a fattie that's quite a lot of effort without smaller supporting vamps. (If he were in a hypothetical group where a line of Setites were more Aus/Ser/something, with a 4 cap with AUS Ser, and so on, sure.) There are a couple of cards with Aus and Ser but that doesn't seem a lot of use. He doesn't really want to be in combat after a block. Most Auspex actions don't seem that great for him. I'd be tempted to drop to aus+something. You've toyed with for and pot, so maybe one of those. Or both of those, and no Aus.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > jblacey wrote: > > Mark Sandhurst > > 8 Capacity Group 5 > > > > Camarilla. Once during your minion phase, Mark may unlock after a successful non-bleed action. > > > I'm not really getting the AUS on any of the versions you've proposed. Telepathic Misdirection, sure, but on a fattie that's quite a lot of effort without smaller supporting vamps. (If he were in a hypothetical group where a line of Setites were more Aus/Ser/something, with a 4 cap with AUS Ser, and so on, sure.) There are a couple of cards with Aus and Ser but that doesn't seem a lot of use. He doesn't really want to be in combat after a block. Most Auspex actions don't seem that great for him. > > I'd be tempted to drop to aus+something. You've toyed with for and pot, so maybe one of those. Or both of those, and no Aus. > Dropping that and adding those put him in league with current snake punch minions, giving him a reasonable outlet for his d action and untap. There can be no "typhonic beast decks have too much support" complaints, because they aren't exactly winning every tournament, or any really. Also, those just work better on setites anyway....

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > adding those put him in league with current snake punch minions, giving him a reasonable outlet for his d action and untap. There can be no "typhonic beast decks have too much support" complaints, because they aren't exactly winning every tournament, or any really. > Also, those just work better on setites anyway.... > I am very much in favour of a few more warrior Setites in a cluster. My main complaint with most of them is that in isolation they're not bad, but it's hard to craft a deck around them as they're a bit sparsely distributed - so you don't have a nice range of vampires to pick from, to support you etc - the midbie with POT SER for obf, the 4 cap with pot/pre/ser etc.

Here is a new version based on feedback and testing: Mark Sandhurst 8 Capacity Group 5 Camarilla. Once during your minion phase, Mark may unlock after a successful non-bleed action. Here is the Math: 8 Cap = +9 6 diff disciplines = +1 9 disc = -9 ability = -1 =0 If people are interested... this is one of my playtest decks: My Combat Rush / Intercept deck (rough design) Crypt (12 cards, min=3, max=10, avg= 7.92) 4 Ghede 3 Mark Sandhurst 2 Seterpenre 1 Veejay Vinod 1 Pearl 1 Tyler McGill Library (90 cards) Action (10) 3 Ambush 3 Bum's Rush 2 Nose of the Hound 2 Temptation Action Modifier (9) 2 Enkil Cog 7 Freak Drive Ally (1) 1 Saatet-ta (Bane Mummy) Combat (32) 6 Immortal Grapple 5 Taste of Vitae 5 Trap 2 Telepathic Tracking 12 Typhonic Beast 2 Slam Equipment (1) 1 Hand of Conrad Event (1) 1 Dragonbound Master (20) 4 Villein 3 Dreams of the Sphinx 2 Vessel 2 Fortitude 2 Potence 1 Fame 1 Giant's Blood 1 Pentex(TM) Subversion 1 Rack, The 1 Powerbase: Montreal 1 Temple Hunting Ground 1 Heidelberg Castle, Germany Reaction (16) 4 Eyes of Argus 4 My Enemy's Enemy 4 On the Qui Vive 4 Telepathic Misdirection

Sorry for entering this discussion rather late: I am not if I want to see yet another Fortitude FoS in group 4/5, even though he cannot be the target of Eternals of Sirius. What are your thoughts about other groups? National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

Group 6 wouldn't be horrible, as most of the vampires you would want to run him with are in Group 5. That said, fortitude isn't critical, if that is the sticking point we could replace it with something else.

After some thought, it might be best to drop for Mark Sandhurst 8 Capacity Group 5 Camarilla. Once each turn, Mark may unlock at the end of a successful non-bleed action. Reasons 1) This adds several potential non-bleed necromancy actions. 2) This adds a good cross over in group 4-5 with Cagliostro, Abdelsobek, Neferu and Seterpenre. 3) In group 5-6, in addition he can cross over with Count Jocalo, who really needs the extra support. 4) This addresses the concern that is too abundant in groups 4-5. 5) His base text makes unnecessary.