Submission: Ghosts in a Shell

Name: Ghosts in a Shell Cardtype: Combat Cost: Capacity: Discipline: Necromancy Clan: Play before range is determined on the first round of combat. Do not replace as long as this card is in play. [nec] Put this card in play. Put all combat cards this vampire plays in this combat on this card instead of burning them. After combat ends, shuffle all those cards into your Library. Any vampire can burn this card and remove it from the game as an action that costs 1 blood. [NEC] As above, but the action to burn this card is at +1 stealth. Flavor text: Art notes: The vampire stands within a ritual circle, empowered, with ghosts and wisps circling him – these spirits are trapped and bring back his combat efficiency from beyond the grave, but they take their toll on the vampire as well (basically existing within his body). World of Darkness reference: How does this card address a compelling game need?: More combat stuff for Necromancy. Combat being underpowered at the moment, recursion would help it engage in more meaningful combats throughout the game (which is one of the problems especially with potence, it requiring a hefty number of cards to work). Recursion should be strictly for necromancy and necromancy clans only though, and it should be pretty unwieldy to use. Notes: Working name was empowerment ritual It could be tweaked so that the cards stay on this card as long as it’s in play, and are shuffled to the deck only once this card is burned (and removed from the game) through it’s action. For added flavor you could add basic thaumaturgy to both levels as it's a ritual in essence as a requirement, but then the card should probably be a bit better as it limits the amount of vampires that could use it effectively. But it could be a thing for flavor. Created by: Petrus Makkonen > Name: Ghosts in a Shell > Cardtype: > Play before range is determined on the first round of combat. Do not replace as long as this card is in play. > Put this card in play. Put all combat cards this vampire plays in this combat on this card instead of burning them. After combat ends, shuffle all those cards into your Library. Any vampire can burn this card and remove it from the game as an action that costs 1 blood . > As above, but the action to burn this card is at +1 stealth. > Krausedit\\ Now that I think about it, it might not be THAT far fetched to add to both levels (note, no for superior, just ). There are two full fledged crypts that don't see that much play which could use it. Tremere G3-4: Tarautas Hector Trelane Valois Sang Preston Varrick Valerius Maior Lille Haake Oliver Thrace Giovanni G2: Patrizia Giovanni Enzo (+ ADV) Marianna Ambrogino (+ ADV) And an assortment of and . For some reason this intriques me, but any crypt could use the combat love. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > [NEC] As above, but the action to burn this card is at +1 stealth. > Why would people play the card at superior to make it easier to remove? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

A good question! When you read the card carefully, you'll see that you do not replace the card until it's burned from play. At the moment the effect is more or less instantanous, but the drawback lingers until you take an action (or beg for help from cross table) to get rid of it. By making the action at stealth it makes it easier for YOU to get rid of the draw back. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

I didn't see that the card would work only for 1 combat. So basically, you're planning to cycle plenty of combat cards in a single combat with a hand size reduced by 1? And then take 1 action and pay 1 blood to get back your hand size? It doesn't look very good to me. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Comparison time! Summon Soul gives two cards back as an action. It can be doubled as blood gain, which is okay. The card never sees play, because a hunt is usually enough for blood gain and no deck requires exactly two cards back at the expense of an action. It's a staple level recursion card though. Spiritual Guidance replicates one played combat card, with no chance for recursion. Extra options only, not really recursion. Sudario Refraction gives three cards back at the expense of three random cards, which could be anything. Not exactly recursion, but replication. Let's not talk about Ashur Tablets here. Rest of the recursion options are more or less crap. This said, recursion should be very limited. We can call it bad if we want to. I'd rather say conditional. I'd say it's best to compare this to Summon Soul, as the cards are not brought to hand, but the deck in random order (which is always worse). To gain Summon Soul's power level we'd need to recur at least two combat cards. That could be anything from Torn Signpost and Immortal Grapple to Dead Hand and Target Vitals. In a prolonged combat (two+ rounds) we could see a manouver and a Taste of Vitae in there for a total of fourish combat cards recurred. The upside here against Summon Soul is that you do not need the invaluable action to trigger the card. You only need the action to come back from the downside. There are other ways to this as well though: clans with necromancy have some ways of increasing hand size to effectively combat the no-replace clause. The point is, you can live with the consequences or use your resources to nullify them, but the effect itself is instantaneous. So, what would you suggest there'd be done about it "not looking very good"? I do appreciate the comment, but feedback would be even better. 1) Make it so that any vampire with necromancy (even outside of combat) could play this card? 2) Just recur all the cards without downside? 2.1) in here I'd just call it uninteractive power creep; cards with special effects should have interactive elements and downsides to them. 3) Keep the combat cards on this card as long as it's in play - when burned the cards stored are moved to your hand (discard down to handsize immediately)? 4) Something else - what? The initial template for the card is lower on the power curve on purpose, not to suggest power creep. The power level can always be adjusted in plenty of ways if it is agreed that the concept and design are warranted or good. What do you think? "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

I think that the best comparaison point is Art of Memory. It requires a Black Hand vampire (here a vampire with Necromancy), is played when the action is announced (here when combat starts) and returns 1 card played during the action (here all cards played during combat). What makes Art of Memory great is that you can typically get back some stealth after an action, or a bleed modifier. Here, you just help your library to deplete more slowly, which is not really a problem. The real issue is more to pull the cards in the right order (that is: a rush, before range cards, and that Immortal Grapple). You stated that the purpose of the card was "to help it engage in more meaningful combats throughout the game". Currently, I think the cards is more a hindrance than anything. An idea would be: Name: Ghosts in a Shell Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Necromancy Play before range is determined on the first round of combat. [nec] At the end of the combat, if this vampire is still ready, you can move 1 card they played during this action from the ash heap to your hand. [NEC] As above, but for up to 2 cards. You could for instance get back a rush, and an Immortal Grapple. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Hm. The comparison to Art of Memory is super valid. I hadn't thought of that. To be fair though, Art of Memory can, if you ask me, keep it's place as an excellent all-arounder and not copy it as such. I'd rather have something a bit more unique, and not so straight forward. Your suggestion here is just a better Art of Memory, and clearly trumps Spiritual Guidance as well (a card only recently published, even if not exactly super strong). There are, as you said, two ways to approach this: either shuffling the cards back to the deck (see recursion proper, or Ashur Tablets) to make more (the amount of) meaningful combats within the game (1), or make more (the impact) meaningful combats within the game (2). In (1), you build your deck with combat combos (Torn Signpost + Immortal Grapple for example) in order to make 7 meaningful combats. That is, Torn and Grapple, plus any other utility cards you get to play. With this approach you might make those 7 into 9 with two Shells, if your card flow is just right. In (2), you trade your other cards for an immediate effective combat (as you'd discard down to hand size after recurring the cards). In this case you trade cards from your deck and convert them into combat. I really don't know which would be more EFFECTIVE (I'd wager it'd be (2) but I'd rather not state that as more than a guess), but we'd have to be clear while designing on which to emulate. I'd be fine with the suggestion in op as a baseline for addressing (1). For (2) I'd rather go with something like this: > > Name: Ghosts in a Shell > Cardtype: Combat > Discipline: Necromancy > Play before range is determined on the first round of combat. Put this card in play on this vampire. Do not replace while this card is in play. > [nec] Instead of burning the combat cards played by this vampire in this combat, put them on this card. In any other combat than this, this vampire may burn 1 blood to burn this card, remove it from the game and move all cards on it to your hand before range is determined on the first round. Discard down to your handsize. > [NEC] As above, but you can decide which combat cards to put on this card as you play them. > In essence you'll get to replicate another combat, but you'll have to sacrifice other cards for it. But, to be fair, it feels like it's just replicating Art of Memory and Spiritual Guidance instead of doing something different. You have a very good point though, I'm not saying otherwise. The question of what really will help combat, and what kind of recursion they should get and what kinds of drawbacks, is not an easy one. Krausedit\\ I know what I wrote might seem like stating the obvious here, and I'm not trying to belittle anyone's experience with the game here. It's just a practice I have, writing things out more for my own musings than as lectures for anyone else. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

I found myself thinking that this would be better as an action card, in order to avoid needing a longer chain of cards to pull it off. And I think the hand reduction is painful, when Necromancers aren't all that awesome at combat anyhow. So something like: Ghosts Doing Stuff Action [nec] Enter combat with a ready minion. At the end of this action, if this vampire is ready, they may burn a blood to move this action card and up to two combat cards played during this action from your ash heap to the bottom of your library (in any order). [NEC] Something. The exact specifics aren't that important, but it was the sort of idea I was thinking of. Points about the above, though: - Because it's an action effect, it doesn't work if the action is blocked. But... - You could maybe make the superior do that even if blocked, if you wanted (might be too horrid). Or you could make the superior move move cards. Or you could make the superior give a combat bonus, like a maneuver or whatever. Or perhaps the inferior is locked minions, but the superior is any minion. Or you could make it a totally unrelated effect, for versatility. Or whatever - go nuts. - Because it moves cards from the ash heap, it doesn't move cards played on the opposing minion, like Disarm or Pulled Fangs.

I understand the value of this card, but as written I would never play this card. It just isn't good enough. If you really want to make a difference it needs to be a more persistent effect. In addition if the goal is to help Potence combat specifically, making a Necromancy card to increase the card efficiency is probably not the way.

@jamesatzephyr: I actually shied away from it being an action card on purpose. Necromancy already has many action based recursion effects, and most of them aren't used. Your suggestion is tailored to answer the game need of my proposed (1). It's pretty interesting, compressing a rush and some combat into a single action (as long as you have stealth to back it up), but only works if you deplete your deck (or play these with Heart of Cheating to bring them closer to the top of your deck). It's an interesting proposition, but requires you to tailor your deck and strategy to utilise it. As written, it might be powerful in a niche (and when built around), but doesn't help all around toolboxes or combat decks. @jblacey: are you talking about the submission in op, or jamesatzephyr's card? My goal wasn't to help potence specifically. Fortitude, Thanatosis and Necromancy combats are all sprinkled around Samedi, Harbingers and Giovanni, all of which make for okay combat modules (some complementing potence, some rivaling it). Dead Hand + Target Vitals and Fortitude for presses is a thing. What's the main problem in the suggestion in the op if you're referring to it? The drawback or that you can't manage when you redraw those combat cards? "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

I think both are too weak. You need an effect that sticks around to make it really efficient, but you don't want to make the cards free. So here are the problems: 1) Instead of recursion, why don't I just add more copies of Card X. 2) I am limited on card slots for combat, why devote my precious slots to a card that immediate has no effect on the current game state (requiring cards to be redrawn). 3) Redrawing combat cards increases my risk that I will be hand jammed on combat cards and will be unable to enter combat via a rush action or block if intercept is required. Here is a suggestion, excuse me if this design is rough... Lessons of the Past Action [nec] +1 stealth action. Attach to this vampire. While attached this vampire may play combat cards from their ash pile. Combat cards played from the ash pile are removed from the game after played. [NEC] As above, if action is successful unlock this vampire. Does that meet the needs? Not sure if this card requires a draw back, but putting a blood cost on it would be the easiest way.